Thanks I just keep trying to find something helpful so i read most of the posts and put my two cents in like i said just to better deal with me since i am forbidden to talk of the A.

SC, start your own thread detailing your situation and allow others to help walk you through this...You will not glean nearly as much by just reading the situations of others, and it sounds like you would really benefit from support...(((StillCrazy)))

Mrs. W

I have a post in the Recovery section and the General Questions section called "In Recovery ?" but not many responses.

AB,

I was in a very similar situation to you - two small kids, me being very happy with my stable job and my family, and my ex being the dynamic extrovert live-life-to-the-fullest workaholic.

When I discovered her affair with a coworker, she said she "couldn't switch jobs", and of course had to stay in contact. Like a fool, I went along, because I didn't want to be "controlling".

We are now divorced, because of course she never ended contact or the affair.

I read your post on EN, and I see a lot of similarity:


Based on the above, I'd say your marriage is very very far from strong. Your wife has one foot out the door, if not one and a half. I don't know if she is still involved with OM, but if she is maintaining contact, then she is by definition at least emotionally involved.

My point is, stay the course, and you might find yourself in same place as yours truly.

AGG

sc..Post here on GQ...the traffic is higher here and you really are not in recovery anyway.

Sorry to make this about me AB. I have a post in GQ titled "In Recovery?"

AB I know i could not handle the contact it made me physically ill.

AB...

As a FWW, when I read the blurb from the post of yours that AGoodGuy posted my insides quite literally SCREAM...I believe that your wife is still very much involved in her affair-I don't care what she is telling you or your counselor...I'm telling you, I've been there and the stuff coming out of her mouth are HUGE red flags...DO NOT IGNORE THEM...This affair is likely to go physical if it has not already...Have you exposed the affair?

Mrs. W

I am baffled as to why you continue to read all of this stuff into my posts. They stand on their own. I certainly wasn't trying to use POJA to demolish the principal of NC! lol Just so you know, if this were the WW asking the question, my answers would have been quite different. Yes, NC is non-negotiable *when demanded by the BS*.

1. I agree with MB principles. NC is a tactic for ending an affair, not a MB principle per se. I agree with NC too.
2. I was answering the question that was asked and don't presume to know his situation beyond the information he gave.

I totally understand your point of view, and in fact, I agree that NC is essential when trying to end an affair or prevent its recurrance. I also understand that it bothers you that I didn't answer his question in the manner you think I should have. I respect your right to have and state your opinion.

I don't agree that POJA is just a tactic for the recovery phase, I view it in the broader context of the MB principles of having a great marriage and preventing affairs from either happening at all or happening again. Absolute NC won't prevent an affair, after all. It will only prevent an affair with that OP. If someone wants to have an affair, they can certainly find someone else. Following the MB principles is meant to prevent that from happening.

By the way ML, I think the time and effort you give to helping folks here is admirable.

Take care

NC is non-negotiable if the affair is not to be resumed...It should be as important to the FWS as it is to the BS...The onus shouldn't lie on the BS allowing for the WS to say "I'm in NC, because my BS MADE me"...On the contrary, it is CRUCIAL for the WS to fully understand their own vunerability and accept it...That is true recovery...

Mrs. W

Thanks for the clarification, I think that's an important point. My poor choice of words here, I was trying to say that a BS should use this tool in a non-negotiable fashion, but I didn't believe that Dr. Harley said that it was a non-negotiable tactic that the BS must use. I believe he said something along the lines of him being adamant in his recommendation that NC be established and enforced.

Ahnold...

Dr. Harley advises Plan B when a WS won't end contact with the affair partner...It's that important...The BS would have a nervous breakdown otherwise...

Mrs. W

Mrs. W,

Yes, I know that. I wasn't saying otherwise.

Ahnold

Yes they would (have a nervous breakdown that is) take it from me who H insisted that he could not just ignore her in a small company. I was miserable every day that they both worked there and i made him miserable too. That is not how i want to live my life and that is what i told him.

It is not that it is a TACTIC only reserved for recovery, it is that POJA does not occur unless and until there are 2 active partners who care about the feelings of each other. For example, a wayward spouse who is in an affair is emotionally removed so POJA would be an irrelevant subject at that point.


The lack of nc will PREVENT recovery because withdrawal never occurs. And greatly increases the odds of resumption of the affair.

And no one has ever said there are any GUARANTEES about no contact. What we have said is that a resumption of an affair is MUCH LESS LIKELY when steps are taken to end contact. Until that happens, recovery is impossible.

But you are exactly right that a repeat is very possible unless MB principles are followed and the problem that existed in the marriage is addressed and resolved.

That being said, learning all the principles in the world will be meaningless unless contact is ended FOR LIFE. FOR LIFE. This is why no contact is so absolutely critical.

In the words of Dr. Harley:






Thank you much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ahnold, have you ended contact with your OW?

He!! yes!

I believe it is sometimes helpful to discuss all aspects of a situation, what if this, what if that. It helps in understanding the correct path to follow. Sometimes discussing the wrong path is very illustrative of just how wrong it is!

You didn't ask, but my wife has established NC with her OM also. To her he is a piece of trash, something she learned in recovery from her EA.

I agree, as long as the discussion focuses on why it is wrong rather than how to make wrong into RIGHT.

There are several of the MB principles that I don't always agree with or intrepret the same way as others. But the no contact for life is one I have no doubts about.

Many of the MB principles get occassionally slammed or ignored or skipped over due to the "realities" of certain situation. IME, "accepting" these realities are often avoidance of difficult, unpleasant or hard things. I don't live in fantasy land, but in most cases these realities are self constructed and exist because people put their blinders on.

Let's simplify for a second.

IMHO,

Harley believes people want to be happy.

Harley believes that the single most important thing that makes people happy is to have a connected intimate relationship. Not money, not a good job, not status, not power, but a connected intimate relationship.

Harley believes contact with an A partner is a barrier to having a connected intimate relationship with your S.

Which of the 3 above do you disagree with?

If its the first point, well then the rest is moot.

If its the second point, then that's your choice. I'm sure we're all aware of many marriages which are more a "business merger" than a marriage and for some people that works for them. Most of the data doesn't support that arrangement is sustainable, as these people inevitably long for the connected intimate relationship and it just takes them years to realize money or power doesn't fill that void. So they divorce and try again. Think celebrity couples. Anyway, if you feel this way then the third point is moot.

If its the third point, then read more of the posts. Its few and far between that I've seen anyone claim a recovered M, a connected intimate relationship, and continued contact with OP. Perhaps when an OC is involved, but none come to mind.

If you agree with the above, then its a matter of deciding the M comes first. Do the hard work of finding a new job and accept that it may not be as pleasant or lucrative as the other job. The Harley's research suggest if you end up with a connected intimate M, you'll be happy you did it.

Just my 2 cents.

It appears as though my thread as been hijacked by posters with the intent of furthering their own agenda and this has now turned into a bickering match.

My intent was to ask a simple question. I really wanted simple answers. What would YOU DO in my situation etc etc.


What MyRevelation has said hits the nail on the head. Not ALL situations are the same. There ARE circumstances whereby contact still needs to be made. How can you say that it is not impossible to change jobs or move. Don't you think the stress of finding another job, let alone one with equal pay could affect the marriage on a greater scale?

Although I have been on MB for a short time, it appears as though all advice given is to have no contact with the OP irrespective of how that can be achieved. Many times that is impractical yet that advice is still given...usually with good intent.

I am not going to live my live worrying about what MIGHT happen. I cannot worry about what I have no control over. Even with no contact with this OM, how could I be sure that my W would not find someone else? There are no guarantees in life. We need to do what is practical and given my circumstances, it is IMPRACTICAL for my W not to have the contact she does.

I had a long conversation with my W last night. In a few weeks, the OM will be visiting her place of business for a presentation. I told her that I was uncomfortable with his visit and wanted her to cancel it.

1. She has no control of his visit.
2. She is the principal and absolutely must be there.
3. He will visit only as long as needed to give his presentation.
4. There will be no "alone" time. Many people will be present.
5. She told me with the utmost sincerity that there is no feelings, no desire, no hidden agenda.

So what am I to do? Forcibly prevent her for attending the meeting? Calling the cops to restrain her? How do you think that could be achieved.

Conversation:
" Dear, I do not want you to be at the meeting because Mr. X will be there"
"I have no choice. I have to go"
I do not feel it appropriate because you will be in a position to possibly rekindle old feelings"
"I have no feelings for him. I hardly ever speak to him and even then it is business only"
(After 17 years, you get to know when your spouse is sincere . She was very sincere. If one is to start to trust again, now is the time to do it.)

BTW, I will be in the audience during his presentation.

We are in a different place in our lives now than just a few weeks ago. We are working on each others EN.

In closing, it wish to state again that it will be counterproductive in my situation to cease the minuscule contact with the OM. The word here is MINUSCULE CONTACT as needed for her profession.

Quote,
By the way ML, I think the time and effort you give to helping folks here is admirable.
-------------------------------------------------

I second that.

AB

While I am not discounting Dr. Hartley's professional advice, I'm sure even the good man would agree that you cannot provide the same advice to everyone irrespective of their circumstance. You cannot take his advice and apply it to a marriage if you do not know all the dynamics of that marriage.

It's like me saying.... Do not eat eggs. They have high cholesterol which could lead to heart attacks.

If I told everyone that, how about those who do not have a cholesterol problem. Should they listen to my advice? No. They should take my advice into consideration and determine their risk factor and then way up the pro's and cons of eating eggs. Ultimately, the individual knows if my egg advice would be suitable to them or not.

AB