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I still feel that there should be NO CONTACT what so ever. I know that it could happen with someone else, but my H told me the same thing that there had to be contact because of their working relationship. Then i discovered a 3:00 am phone call on his cell phone. How could it be business at 3:00 am. Then when he went back to work (he was out due to illness for 5 months)he told me that any contact was business and business only. I could not deal with that and told him so so he gave his resignation at work. The OW ended up quitting and he withdrew his resignation. After she left he then told me that she was still after him the whole time and he did not want to tell me because he did not want to hurt me anymore than he already had. I think that hurt worse than if he would have told me when it was happening. NO CONTACT is a must in my opinion. I can not believe that it does not bother you.
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Since you'll be in the audience when he speaks here's a trick or two you can pull.
1. Get a naval blowhorn. Put rubber bands around it to hold down the button and roll it under the seats or down the aisle when no one is looking.
2. Maybe roll a couple empty pop cans down the aisle.
3. Maybe roll a couple soda cans under the seats (soda if you live out east, Coke if you live in Georgia).
4. Maybe just boooo him.
5. Shoot 1/2 paper clips at him while he speaks
6. Feign a coughing caniption fit and necessarily have to excuse yourself from the room causing quite the commotion
7. Feign puking...complete with a jar of your very own mixture of oatmeal and whatever that you dump out somewhere and somehow unseen in front of you.
8. Raise your hand...interrupt him like a school child waving his hand incessantly and ask a really stupid but poignant question. I presume you have not disclosed your wife's affair to anyone she works with so this may be your best method of throwing him off his speech without even really being that mean. He will be TERRIFIED about what you may say or ask standing up there naked in front of ALL his work colleagues
To me...sitting there and "respectively" listening to my enemy speak in front of my WW would just not go without something.
Someday...indifference.
But not today.
Mr. W
p.s. - No Contact means no contact. Surviving an Affair has sold countless copies and there are not separate chapters for different kinds of affairs and recoveries. It is cut and dry. Even eye contact with OM is to much contact for your wife to have. It's your life and you are free to live it how you choose. It's risky. Unnecessarily...risky. Why doesn't your wife call in sick that day? Take a personal day and go get some botox or a facial peel. You could play hookey with her instead of being dragged to some event to be tortured. Did you really enthusiastically agree to go see OM speak???
FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered
"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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AB, after a 3 year affair which resulted in an OC my husband FINALLY understood why NC is imperative. He CANNOT even for the sake of a child have C with his xOW. Why? Because each phone call, each vist to see the child (behind my back..secrets kill marriages), even the tiniest bit of contact and he was pulled back into the A. He has been completely NC for over 6 months now and is finally defogging and no longer justifying the lies, the verbal abuse and the utter deception and cruelty that was fed to me.
I hope this is not you down the road because you allow this mockery to continue. Can I tell you a secret about women. AB? Women like strong men. You are coming off as weak. It is not attractive and the longer you tolerate this from your WW the more respect she will lose for you.
Faith
me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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A/B, I told her that I was uncomfortable with his visit and wanted her to cancel it. As I see it, you had really made up your mind about this before you started this thread. And that is OK. It is your decision and your marriage as well. However, (don't you just love the "however") your statement above says that you are not so unlike most of we BS in desiring NC. The truth is, while many FWS here were willing to do whatever it took to institute NC, your FWW is not. If that is OK with you, it's really none of anyone elses business. But you did asked for opinions, and received them. Thes rest is up to you. Who
I am the BW,
He is the FWH
D-Day: 12/02/03
Recovered
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Quote!
Then i discovered a 3:00 am phone call on his cell phone
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I have not seen ANYTHING to raise my suspicions in a year. I had actually seen an email to the OM and when I asked my W if she was still in contact, she quite matter-of-factly told me the subject of the email I had already seen.
I have been with my W when she was at another professional gathering and she made a point of avoiding him although he knew me and avoided me. Another post of mine talks about me sitting next to his W talking about all sorts of stuff.
The OM is not interested in my W. Both are consummate professionals and both have too much to loose if any rumors start.
Sometimes you have to listen to everyone's opinions and sometimes you have to trust your instinct and listen to your gut. In MY case, no contact is worse. Maybe not in the majority of cases but if you read all I have said about the situation and keep an open mind you might agree.
Me - 47
W - 45
2 boys. 11 & 13
Together 17 yrs. Married 15 yrs
Me - Faithful 17 yrs.
W - EA. D-Day 9/2006. Recovered. (Mostly)
W - EN issues. Ongoing, but there is hope. That's why I'm here.
What the mind can perceive and believe, it can achieve.
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It appears as though my thread as been hijacked by posters with the intent of furthering their own agenda and this has now turned into a bickering match. My intent was to ask a simple question. I really wanted simple answers. What would YOU DO in my situation etc etc. However, there will be some advisors that are so invested in a particular phylosophy that they refuse to consider individual circumstances and personalities, and just spout cookie cutter advice without concern for the individual dynamics. These people are basically "zealots" and incapable of looking outside of their narrow views. Their advice is usually good in most circumstances, but when faced with real world "curveballs", they tend to use the "bigger hammer" approach rather than adapting to the individual circumstance that is in a different shape than the "cookie cutter" they are holding. Personally, I tend to discount the advice of these people.
Like I said, I am a huge proponent of NO CONTACT and insist on it in my situation without compromise. However, there are other dynamics in my situation where other MB principles must be modified for our particular set of circumstances. What MyRevelation has said hits the nail on the head. Not ALL situations are the same. There ARE circumstances whereby contact still needs to be made. How can you say that it is not impossible to change jobs or move. Don't you think the stress of finding another job, let alone one with equal pay could affect the marriage on a greater scale? Although I have been on MB for a short time, it appears as though all advice given is to have no contact with the OP irrespective of how that can be achieved. Many times that is impractical yet that advice is still given...usually with good intent. I am not going to live my live worrying about what MIGHT happen. I cannot worry about what I have no control over. Even with no contact with this OM, how could I be sure that my W would not find someone else? There are no guarantees in life. We need to do what is practical and given my circumstances, it is IMPRACTICAL for my W not to have the contact she does. I had a long conversation with my W last night. In a few weeks, the OM will be visiting her place of business for a presentation. I told her that I was uncomfortable with his visit and wanted her to cancel it. 1. She has no control of his visit. 2. She is the principal and absolutely must be there. 3. He will visit only as long as needed to give his presentation. 4. There will be no "alone" time. Many people will be present. 5. She told me with the utmost sincerity that there is no feelings, no desire, no hidden agenda. So what am I to do? Forcibly prevent her for attending the meeting? Calling the cops to restrain her? How do you think that could be achieved. Conversation: " Dear, I do not want you to be at the meeting because Mr. X will be there" "I have no choice. I have to go" I do not feel it appropriate because you will be in a position to possibly rekindle old feelings" "I have no feelings for him. I hardly ever speak to him and even then it is business only" (After 17 years, you get to know when your spouse is sincere . She was very sincere. If one is to start to trust again, now is the time to do it.) BTW, I will be in the audience during his presentation. We are in a different place in our lives now than just a few weeks ago. We are working on each others EN. In closing, it wish to state again that it will be counterproductive in my situation to cease the minuscule contact with the OM. The word here is MINUSCULE CONTACT as needed for her profession. AB AB, Good Luck to you in this difficult time. I do think you need to put some hard and firm "boundaries" in place for this limited contact that will include complete transparency from your WW so that you will know of every contact and the content of that contact. Also, I personally favor you speaking with the OM directly to make sure he understands that you are agreeing to this limited and temporary situation because of your WW's position, but you are watching closely and if OM screws up, you're prepared to blow up his whole world including exposure to his W and his employer. Now the big question that only YOU can answer ... do you feel comfortable with this situation? ...or do you need something else to feel comfortable? Personally, I'd have trouble accepting even minimal contact, but that's me, and this is YOUR WW. You sound like a mature sensible couple who have ran off the road, but didn't drive it completely into the ditch. Now you need to get it back between the lines. Good Luck and I wish you plenty of "mental strength" to endure this trial.
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AB-
Sounds to me like you don't need any help. You've got your own gameplan and are implementing it. Good luck.
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... do you feel comfortable with this situation? ...or do you need something else to feel comfortable? I have come to accept it. I am not comfortable with it but then again, I am not so uncomfortable that I cannot face him. After much thought I decided to attend the gathering some months ago knowing that he would be there in his high official capacity. I could have stayed home. I decided that I was not going to hide. My W made a mistake and I decided to accept her " get out of jail free" card. She has proven to me up till now that she can be trusted. Up till now? Well, in 10 years, 20 years, it would still be up till now. That's where the trust comes back and that's where you just have to let go and move on knowing that no matter what, you have no control of the unknowns in your life. My W (or I) could meet someone tomorrow and become tempted. There is just no way to predict the future. So yes, I am ok with the situation. My trust for her is there but not 100%, That will take a lot longer. My electronic vigilance has so far proven that my paranoia is unfounded. I also have a choice about attending the upcoming meeting and I will go too. Why? Because I am my wife's husband and I want to support her. (although I reserve the right to wimp out at the last minute) AB
Me - 47
W - 45
2 boys. 11 & 13
Together 17 yrs. Married 15 yrs
Me - Faithful 17 yrs.
W - EA. D-Day 9/2006. Recovered. (Mostly)
W - EN issues. Ongoing, but there is hope. That's why I'm here.
What the mind can perceive and believe, it can achieve.
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AB-
Sounds to me like you don't need any help. You've got your own gameplan and are implementing it. Good luck. I do need help. The help I am getting is the emotional satisfaction of being able to help those in a worse situation than me by posting on MB. If not to help then to provide a virtual shoulder or ear for those less fortunate then I. Unlike most of you, I have only 75 posts to my name. Still a light-weight in this circle. While my M is still strained, it is getting better. My M issues stem basically from me and I have identified them and because I am getting my proverbial sh*t together, my M is becoming healthier as a result. I am learning from MB as we all are. AB
Me - 47
W - 45
2 boys. 11 & 13
Together 17 yrs. Married 15 yrs
Me - Faithful 17 yrs.
W - EA. D-Day 9/2006. Recovered. (Mostly)
W - EN issues. Ongoing, but there is hope. That's why I'm here.
What the mind can perceive and believe, it can achieve.
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AB,
Your simple question, what would you do? I'd ask my WW to quit her job and have NC with OM.
I don't see many posters here who are advising NC because they are zealots. I think most of them took the time to read what you described as your situation and gave you their opinion. I don't know if you read the responses or scanned them looking for the ones that support the decision you've already made.
Your orginal premise seemed to imply that you were wondering if anyone here thinks its good for your M if your WW has continuing contact with OM for an extended period of time with no plan in place to end that. The answer you got was no. That answer is not because of a fanatical adherence to MB principles, nor a disregard for the fact that every situation differences, nor a prediction that your M has no chance. Its simply a statment that the chances for recovery are lower when NC is not in place. The chances for renewed A is higher if NC is not in place. The chances of your M surviving are lower if you don't have recovery or your WW renews her A.
Of course, its up to you whether you diasgree with that or not. IME and based on what I've read of other people's experiences the above seems to be true across a very broad range of situations, and seldom has the strain of moving or finding a new job put a greater risk on recovery or a renewed A, than the risk that continued contact does. But again, that's your call.
Your example about your WW having a meeting is not the same as your original premise. If my WW had been sending out resumes, interviewing for new jobs, given her two week notice, then I might be inclined to accept that some contact during that process. I would feel "I don't like, but that's life." But you didn't ask that question.
Finally, you yourself said, your WW is successful, high profile, consummate professional. If that is true, finding a new job should not be that difficult at all.
Anyway, I gave my answer to your simple question, so I'll quit posting on this thread.
Me 43 BH
MT 43 WW
Married 20 years, No Kids, 2 Difficult Cats
D-day July, 2005
4.5 False Recoveries
Me - recovered
The M - recovered
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Sometimes you have to listen to everyone's opinions and sometimes you have to trust your instinct and listen to your gut. In MY case, no contact is worse. Maybe not in the majority of cases but if you read all I have said about the situation and keep an open mind you might agree. Seriously, I have a very open mind and I don't agree. And neither should you. You know your marriage is not recovering just as we told you. You know this. You posted about it elsewhere. So you already know what Dr. Harley says is true. You know. ["recovery is impossible unless contact ends"] But you are willing to live in a marriage with no love and that is your right and your choice. You are playing Russian Roulette with your marriage. And that is fine as long as you are willing to accept the consequences. Your wife already has one foot out the door as long as she doesnt' love you. I think you have seen the consequences already, and that is a wife who is not in love with you. Her affair will always be front of mind because her feelings are perpetually rekindled. As long as that happens, she will not withdraw and will always compare her fantasy affair to a dull, boring H. She can never come out of the fantasy. And then you have to worry about the day when a weak moment collides with opportunity and she resumes the affair, which is the rule rather than the exception. But more importantly, AB, let me tell you something about "open minds." Yours is about the most closed on this thread. I will also point out that you are the LEAST objective and the LEAST experienced [at marital recovery] person on this thread. You do not want the inconvenience that comes with making the necessary changes, so you are very invested in convincing yourself that this will work. Unfortunately, you already know it is not working. I feel really bad for you, AB. But just know that when you are ready to save your marriage, we will be here to help you. And I truly mean that.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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But just know that when you are ready to save your marriage, we will be here to help you. And I truly mean that. Co-signed... Excellent post Mel... Mrs. W
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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While my M is still strained, it is getting better. My M issues stem basically from me and I have identified them and because I am getting my proverbial sh*t together, my M is becoming healthier as a result. I am learning from MB as we all are. Is this your idea of a good marriage, AB? She has withheld almost all affection. ...She believes she still loves me but cannot confirm that she is “in love” with me. ...All questions are answered with the classic “I don’t know” when I ask her if she loves me or wants to be with me or even get divorced. This is "healthy?" A woman who doesn't know if she is in love with you and hasn't decided if she wants a divorce or not? Here you are a full year away from D-Day and you haven't even BEGUN recovery, much less have a wife who is in any way committed to your marriage. Hers is the exact mentality that leads to affairs: "not in love." She has one foot out of the marriage right now. Is your idea of a "good" marriage a warm body that just shows up? If she is no better off a year later, I shudder to think what you consider recovery. Because this is not it, my friend. Do you know you don't have to settle for this?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I see how she is with others, especially men and it disturbs me. She offers them more affection than her own husband. She has always done this and it has never bothered me but then we had a stable marriage…until now. My trust for her is there but not 100%, That will take a lot longer. The first quote is from you two weeks ago. The second today. So, let me get this straight...she acts inappropriately in front of you with other men...and yet you are still finding ways to trust her even if she has contact with a man she had an affair with??? Sorry, but something does not jive about your story. You are all over the place in terms of your feelings for her...and NOW..even though she has done nothing to warrant a change in you, you will defend limited contact with the OM? Why do YOU feel there is a lack of intimacy in your marriage? I would suggest you go back a few weeks and read your own words...and ask yourself how you have gotten to a place of acceptance regarding her maintaining any contact with the OM. I suspect that you are afraid of your wife. that you know deep down inside that if you told her absolute NC was a boundary that she would pick her job over you. You mentioned about how ambitious she is...it appears as though she is so ambitious that she would be willing to leave you int he ditch for her career? It is my belief that there is an active affair right now...and I base this on my experience here as well as your description of your wife's behaviors.
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While I am not discounting Dr. Hartley's professional advice, I'm sure even the good man would agree that you cannot provide the same advice to everyone irrespective of their circumstance. You cannot take his advice and apply it to a marriage if you do not know all the dynamics of that marriage. But, that is really not the POINT. You don't need his permission or anyone's permission to stay in a situation where your wife remains in contact with her lover. YOU DON'T NEED ANYONE'S PERMISSION. What you need, though, is ACCEPTANCE that your marriage will never recover. Whatever reasons/excuses you use to avoid ending contact does not erase the outcome. The outcome is the SAME. But you already know this. You already know that your marriage is not recovering. Your wife doesn't know if she is in love with you and doesn't know yet if she wants a divorce. So, you don't to need to call Dr. Harley. You know you are not an exception when he says "recovery is impossible unless contact ends." Because you already have the proof. But you can call him yourself and discuss your marriage with him. Call him tomorrow between 10 and 1 cst at 888-606-1776 And I know you fancy MyRevelation's "advice" because he is telling you what you want to hear, but please ask for his credentials. Ask him how many marriages he has personally saved and where he got his psychology doctorate. How many books has he authored? Anyone can tell you what you want to hear, AB, but not everyone knows what the he11 they are talking about. And I would suggest that some guy on the internet that showed here 6 short weeks ago and knows nothing about MB may not be your best resource.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I had a long conversation with my W last night. In a few weeks, the OM will be visiting her place of business for a presentation. I told her that I was uncomfortable with his visit and wanted her to cancel it. 1. She has no control of his visit. True. She is the PRINCIPAL. She has NO control. 2. She is the principal and absolutely must be there. True. She is the principal and ABSOLUTELY must be there. 3. He will visit only as long as needed to give his presentation. True. Why would she tell you any different? 4. There will be no "alone" time. Many people will be present. True. This time. Maybe. 5. She told me with the utmost sincerity that there is no feelings, no desire, no hidden agenda. True. Why in the WORLD would she LIE? So what am I to do? Forcibly prevent her for attending the meeting? Calling the cops to restrain her? How do you think that could be achieved. Nope. You can't control what she does. Only what you do. As long as you're willing to ABIDE BY HER TERMS you'll continue to get what you're getting. BTW, I'd be sitting in that audience too. I love Mr.W's suggestions. Make him really nervous about what you might do.
Last edited by princessmeggy; 09/27/07 04:40 PM.
Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
*********************
In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists. Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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I'd just sit front row center with my arms crossed and stare a hole in the sucker...
Maybe stand up and walk out at some point...
Then stand at the back and keep staring...
Just a thought.
Mark
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If the staring idea is what you do...sitting in the front row. How about putting a banana or some threatening shaped object in your inside jacket pocket (assuming you are wearing a suit). Make him believe you could possible BE packing heat and do not be afraid to stick your chest out a bit and allow him to wonder what's in your coat pocket.
If you've got a shoulder holster...wear it (absent any gun) and allow him to get an eyeball on it.
Make him fearful to ever enter or speak in that building again.
Point being...without seeming to do or say anything you may be able to get OM to abide by no contact without directly threatening him. You can play all innocent.
I don't think this is as good an idea as directly demanding NO CONTACT from your wife. SHE should want to do that for you.
An example...for a long time after my wife's affair we really thought we'd potentially see OM at her high school reunion which was to occur about 26 months after NO CONTACT. For the first year we both considered an eventuality. I never intended to demand my wife not attend. I thought I could handle it (and I know I could). I certainly feigned indifference. I actually was and am quite confident about the situation (though I HAD fantasies of a confrontation with him and kicking his butt) Besides he might not show up and my wife lives 750 miles away and would LOVE to see her old friends...some of whom stood in our wedding and she has not seen in years.
Well...about 15 months in recovery or so. My wife reads on MB a couple of stories of FWW's that faltered when they themselves had "accidentally" or otherwise broken no contact and got entangled once again with their affair partners (even after being here on these boards for quite some time and understanding all the concepts). At that point she decided that the reunion just wasn't worth the risk to our family. We were not going to go and that was final. Her decision to protect us.
Good luck,
Mr. Wondering
FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered
"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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There ARE circumstances whereby contact still needs to be made. How can you say that it is not impossible to change jobs or move. Don't you think the stress of finding another job, let alone one with equal pay could affect the marriage on a greater scale?
Although I have been on MB for a short time, it appears as though all advice given is to have no contact with the OP irrespective of how that can be achieved. Many times that is impractical yet that advice is still given...usually with good intent. AB this is just ridiculous. It really is. You have a choice here. Either recover your marriage or not. If you choose to recover, they you also have to choose NC and make that happen regardless of how painful/difficult/impossible it is. it is IMPOSSIBLE to recover while there is ANY contact. I can not imagine ANY circumstance under which NC would be impossible to establish. This is a matter of WILL not a matter of practicalities. Establishing NC for my wife and her OM cost us around $10,000 - we HAD TO MOVE to recover. There IS a reason NC is recommended here. Tell you what, do a count on MB and see how many recovered marriages you can find where NC was not established.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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While I am not discounting Dr. Hartley's professional advice, I'm sure even the good man would agree that you cannot provide the same advice to everyone irrespective of their circumstance. He certainly would apply the exact same advice about NC to every person he counseled.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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