i don't feel like i am stumbling. i just feel like i am back to square one. this has been harder to get over then my marriage ending was and i know i have said that before. by the time my marriage ended i did not love my ex anymore. and we were in a very bad place. i loved gekko and was planning a future with him. that is why this is so hard. yes, there were some hurtful things done, but i honestly do not believe that any hurt he caused was intentional rather i believe it was because he was just not ready to be as serious as i was.

unfortunately, when he went away for the weekend with that girl, i felt like i was dealing with my ex all over again. i had flashbacks to that awful time, and had the same gut wrenching feeling. i have no idea why he went, he said it was just to "get away" but i get conflicting stories from him about it. some where he says it was nothing, some where he says yes there was flirting but some of her actions and behaviors completely turned him off from any attraction he may have had from her. we had only recently broken up and that monday had had a conversation where he said he still wanted to be in a dating relationship with me and he PROMISED me he was not seeing anyone else. then he went away for the weekend with her and i know they were calling each other and talking quite a bit.

i will tell you, no matter what it was going on, that hurt me more than you can imagine. i am STILL trying to get over the pain of that. may not have been an intentional hurt, and those actions scream of him not being ready to be committed to me, but man if i did not feel like i was going through what i went through in my marriage. thinking about it now it still brings a tear to my eye. we had such a good thing going and such good plans, and BOOM! that happens.

it makes me scared. how can i trust what a man says to me? how can i trust at all? i think i must just learn to watch the actions and not so much the words.

i dunno. i am just going to let whatever is meant to happen happen. if someone comes along, fine. if not, i have plenty to do to keep me busy. i was just sooooooo ready.

mlhb

first, you assign the untrustworthy behaviors to the individuals that own them, not the rest of the world, not to any other soul.

second, you learn to assess people over a longer period of time than you have previously. . . you are impulsive with relationships, you just react to the latest crises du jour, and don't ponder and ask questions of yourself and of the situation to conclude a factual underatanding of the situation. . .

third, manager the process of assessing people, by asking questions of their history, then validate with their actual behaviors. . . history from people usually is gone through rose colored glasses. . . first hand abservation is generally the only final arbiter of worthiness. . .

and no, you are not sooooooo ready, you are so far from ready.

wiffty. .

in hindsight, i see that history is repeating itself with him. but you can't always say that people don't change. for example, i know i am a different person now than i was 5 or 10 years ago. i was indecisive at times in my marriage, and i know the way i handled things then is not how i would handle them now. so i gave him the benefit of the doubt when he told me he left his now ex 3 times before leaving her for good, one of those times while she was pregnant. i guess that should have been a red flag, but then again, my ex and i split twice before we finally ended it for good the 3rd time.

then when i saw him pulling me in and pushing me away so much i started to wonder if this is what he did in his marriage. was history repeating itself.

i don't know. what ever happened to just meeting someone and getting to know each other and having a relationship? this seems like it is awful difficult and quite a process.

mlhb

its a normal process, happens all the time . . . AND each person brings their own biases and expectations. what biases and expectations do you bring to each chance meeting?

the only difficult part of the process is that there are many dishonest amd manipulative people that have to identified and discarded. . . if you can learn to do that, then its a very easy process. . . just the population pool is decreasing with age. . .

wiffty

ah, now that's a point that is worth understanding! very good. . . once you realize that people don't change EASILY, then you can figure out from their history, what is going to repeat in the future! however you have a bias about wanting a relationship soon. . . you can't keep this bias and have a good selection and weeding out process at the same time. . . one of them has to go, either the I'M READY RIGHT NOW has to go, or the selective process to get the right mate has to go. .

which will it be?

many or most times, a divorced person will seldom admit to their part of the downfall, because they don't want to change, and its easier to blame other people for one's own mistakes. . . so get the history, and then watch for behaviors that indicate duplicity and lack of honesty. .

be honest with yourself. . . how has your patterns repeated?

trust me, i am very aware of what patterns repeated.
in my marriage i had boundaries, but i never enforced them. and i swore i would never let anyone cross my boundaries again. well, i did. i did not enforce them again because i feared if i did, he would get mad and go away. (this stems from childhood). so, just like in my marriage, i ended up putting my own needs aside to make sure his were met no matter what the cost to me.

the confusing part was, he was very good to me in ways my ex never was. he complimented me all the time, told me how beautiful i am and how great i looked. we were very affectionate with each other, i was always in total bliss when i was around him because i felt completely wonderful and did not have to walk on egg shells like i did with my ex. all that stuff seemed to outweigh the unhealthy stuff in my mind.

i am not going to go into huge detail here what i know i did wrong in my marriage. trust me, i do NOT blame my ex for everything. i am very hurt and discouraged by how he handled our messed up marriage, by having all those affairs and the other things he did. i have worked hard to change the behaviors i had that i did wrong. the one i apparently still need to work on however, is my fear of losing someone i love if i enforce my boundaries.

i'd rather make a right selection than have to be hurt many times over. so i know i am going to have to take my time.

mlhb

mlhb,

here is your problem, you have a FOO issue, an abnormal relationship issue. So when a relationship with a normal appearance comes along, you can't distinguish between a manipulative nice and a genuinely nice person. .

oh, and this is not a trust you issue. . . there is no trust to be earned from me, as I am not trusting you with anything from me. . here is where you are trying to convince me with words, and i am not believing, because I haven't seen any actions when you meet a nice person in real life. .

your goal should be to gather as much information as you can about meeting, and then discuss pros and cons here, and with your counselor to try to help get a read on honest vs manipulative person, and then proceed with the appropriate route. .

your eharmony experiences are a great start in practice as they force you to make decisions not in real life, but relationship decisions none the less. . . but don't make impulsive, ludicrous ones, try to make factual relationship quality decisions. . . think through your criteria, and then post your criteria for the world to see. .

wiftty

i don't disagree that i do have a hard time deciphering manipulative nice from true nice. and my therapist pretty much told me that i need to end something as SOON as i see that flags are presenting themselves. or, at least, not to ignore them, but address them head on. and if the person doesn't like it, then they need to go. i need to fire them. i need to move on.

she actually never told me what to do with gekko, i.e., to break up or not with him. she just told me that it was up to me whether or not i wanted to wait for the YEARS it would take for him to be ready and that it would take years of therapy for him to change the patterns that i was seeing. she said it definitely could be done but that he needed to recognize it and want to change it. like you said in one of your posts, change does not always come easily or quickly. i can't be on this emotional roller coaster for years.

so are you actually saying i should remain on eharmony and use it as a practicing ground?

mlhb

I've stayed away from most of the discussion, but one thing you have to realize, mlhb, is that when you are in a long distance relationship, you need to multiply the "normal" dating time by a factor of 10 before you truly get to know someone (just ask wiftty <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ).

IOW, when you were here saying "oh, I know gekko, we have been dating for [fill in the blank - six months, a year, etc], we talk on the phone everyday, I know him", you might remember me being the wet blanket (of course you remember), saying "you need much much more time for an LDR". Remember?

In an LDR, it is so easy to say all the right things, to always seem perfect. And sure, when you have your once-a-month weekends, it's all great - of course it is, it is a vacation. You don't know someone until you spend a lot of face time with them, or get to observe them over years, watch their actions, watch their reactions, etc etc. So when you were talking about moving to Atlanta after only "knowing" gekko for a year or eighteen months, you were way ahead of yourself.

I know you won't like this, but look at the bright side - you got to know him before making any permanent decisions. That would have sucked. You learned a lesson, it hurt, but you learned. It's a process, as wiftty says. Most of us have BTDT.

AGG

oh agg... i know you have been biting your tongue and avoiding my posts like the plague LOL

i actually don't remember you saying that it would take like double the time or so in an ldr for knowing someone, but it makes perfect sense. when we had our week together with all kids together and life as it is, that was reality. and it freaked the ****** out of him. (there were some other things going on too that had nothing to do with me but i do think part of the problem that week was seeing that this is what life would be like).

it is very difficult in an ldr to see what that every day life would be like. and i won't relocate unless i am getting married. i am not going to move just so i can continue in a dating relationship. i would have continued ldr for a few more years and that would not have bothered me. HE is the one that kept pushing for a dead line of when i would be down there so we could spend more time together. the catch to that is.... i am not moving without a ring on my finger. if i did not have kids that would be different, but i can't just move them without some guarantees.

you usually are a wet blanket and a stick in the mud agg <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
BUT, i now understand that he and i met at the completely wrong time and that he never had that alone time after his marriage ended and that that alone doomed us. eventually he was going to freak out and need it, and that came after a year together and many many feelings were there.

however, i still don't think every situation is alike. my mom was remarried within a year after her and my dad split, she pretty much met someone right away and they have been happily married for 20 years. i have seen others do it as well. my friend only dated one man after her marriage ended and he is the one she married. so it does happen. and it can work.

i don't know anymore! whatever! i will survive, and i have got to enforce my boundaries and stop being so afraid of losing people.

it is ok agg, at least you didn't say " i told ya so"... now that would have ticked me off!

mlhb

i just want to add to this thread that i don't want to have gekko being thought of as the bad guy here.

there were several things throughout the year and a half that i did not address immediately when they would happen and that is my fault. for then it built up inside until at one point i finally did blow. and when i did i said a lot of things that were not very nice. had i addressed something that bothered me as soon as it did, that would not have happened. so, in that sense, i was not completely honest during our time together since i did not always honestly say what i was feeling.

i do have anger but mostly about the fact that i am frustrated that i gave all this time and my heart to someone who kept saying they were ready but really were not. anger stems from hurt. any therapist will tell you that. and, in return for the things i said, he said some very awful hurtful things as well, because i backed him into a corner i am sure. i wish none of those things had ever been said.

he is still on my mind and i do still miss him, i cannot lie. i still have dreams about him at night. i am still in shock and disbelief that something i thought was so sure was not.

he is not an awful person, and i don't want people thinking he is. my posts are only one side of the story, my expression of hurt and anger and sadness and disappointment. and of trying to get over someone i love a lot. and trying to learn from it.

i just wanted to say that.

mlhb

Mlhb -

With all due respect - who cares about the others and their relationships? I'm not being flippant here - but this comment above just caught me. If you were here with me, I would shake you and then hug you - and say the same thing - who cares about the others??

Sweetie - relationships are not the be all and end all in life - and I know that you know that. Stop looking - stop thinking about it - and I'll bet you big bucks that you will find what you are looking for - maybe not in the timeframe you wish - but that's OK - sometimes when we are not planning - things fall into place.

You have posted positive affirmations about yourself - and you know that you are a great catch. Now, just sit back, live your life....someone will grab the bait.....

Love to you,
Laura

yes, to practice asking questions to get history. .
to practice being thoughtful about relationships, instead of being impulsive.
to practice asking more questions than giving answers. . .
to figure out which questions to ask that are meaningful and insightful to you. . .
to practice making decisions on wrong people after some time asking them questions. . .

and don't dismiss anyone for simple, reactive reasons, dismiss them for failing your required answers. .

practice asking direct questions. . . find someone you like, google them, get some information, and then ask them questions of which you know the answers. . . that will tell you if they lie or are hinding. . .

its called research, and its part of the process, not the event.
wiftty

well, we shall see... i am really not in the mood to be looking at matches anymore ya know? i doubt i will renew after my month is up. i'll think about it.

mlhb

i went to day 1 of a 4 day workshop today on special education. it was great! i love the whole education process and cannot wait until i am done by degree.

but sitting there today just made me realize how much time i have wasted spinning my wheels on this whole relationship thing. since june i have cried, i have been angry, i have been sad. i have re-read emails gekko sent to me, talked to him, not talked to him, thought of him, not thought of him. i have cried to our mutual friend and asked her advice and help. i have tried to interpret and reinterpret thing she said or put into emails to me. all of this since june. AND I CANNOT BELIEVE HOW MUCH TIME I HAVE WASTED ON THIS. the progress towards my goals has been almost brought to a halt while i fretted over this. that so has to stop.

i am working towards my elementary education degree. my new job opens me up to all kinds of free workshops to take and all kinds of new contacts to make. the money i am making now is allowing me to get back on my feet financially and make some much needed improvements to my house. and i was starting this wonderful new eating plan that i was following for a several months. and that along with other things has just gone right out the window while i wasted time spinning my wheels over this situation.

i am not beating myself up over hurting or being disappointed things did not work out. but the bottom line is that it is done. it is over. and it is now october and i have got to move on. i have got to remember all the wonderful things i was working towards and get back on track to working towards those things.

no more worrying about why it didn't work, or the if onlys. they don't matter anymore. and chasing after a new man is not the answer either.

i was very excited today about my future and my continuing my education into my masters degree and beyond. i must refocus and get back on track. i cannot believe how far off track this whole thing has thrown me.

mlhb

I think that you should take some time to heal from the breakup, as well as some alone time.

But, when you do decide that you are ready to date again, wiftty's suggestion is a good one - don't date with the idea of landing a husband, date with the open mind of learning from each person you meet. And plan to meet lots of people before even thinking of settling with anyone.

The reason Harley says to date 20 people before getting married is not that he thinks it'll take you 20 tries before meeting "the one". It's because he knows that we need that experience of meeting different people, both right and wrong, before we can even know what the "right one" is. How many of us got married without that experience, and then found that we married wrong? Guilty.

The mistake people make is saying that there is always the chance of meeting "the right one" right away, and then citing examples of family members who did that and got lucky. Ahem.

The problem with it is that without the dating "experience", you do not know what right and wrong is for you. You need to date some turkeys to really appreciate it when the right one comes along.

I think that some women (I'm sure men too, but maybe not as much?) are conditioned or predispositioned to make relationships "work", even if the compatibility is less than there. It's that martyr issue that wiftty was referring to. It feels validating to think that you met someone, and by golly, he's "the one".

Wiftty's point is that it's important to get away from that tendency of assigning "the one" status to someone you don't know and who has yet to prove that status, and instead observe each candidate for who they, not who you want them to be.

I can tell you that since my divorce I probably dated a dozen women seriously, and probably had close to 20-30 first dates. And while many of them were totally wrong for me, even those were helpful in letting me understand what "right" would be. So nowdays, when I meet someone, it is much easier to know if she is right or wrong.

Spend some time alone, then go out there with the attitude of just meeting people, not finding relationships or marriage.

AGG

i have to say i don't know that i necessarily agree with dating a bunch of people. it kind of goes against my christian beliefs honestly. and, i will be lucky to find 1 man to date that lives within my vicinity let alone 20! even with the eharmony experience the closest matches i got were 3 hours away. i live in a resort town that is only busy in the summer and they are all out of towners. our normal population is somewhere from 2000-4000 people. most of them married and those who are not, are beneath me believe that.

i know what i do not want. what i need to learn is as soon as i see someone is exhibiting signs of things i do not want i need to address it right away not sweep it under the rug and i need to "fire" them if they do not respect my boundaries. i have yet to have a relationship where my boundaries are not crossed and that is what i need to work on. because i ALLOWED my boundaries to be crossed and DID NOT enforce them because i feared i would lose that person that i had already started to love. i must realize if my boundaries are being crossed than there is something wrong.

and i do believe that after a marriage ends you can find that someone the first or 2nd try around. it does happen. obviously NOT for me, but it does happen.

however, i do think i need alone time right now. i want to concentrate on my goals again. i am just discouraged.

mlhb

mlhb,

Can you say more about what you mean by this:


I am absolutely not the person to counsel anyone on Christianity, so please don't take this post as that. But I guess I don't see the inconsistency between dating multiple people before committing to one and being a practicing Christian. If I'm not mistaken, Dr. Willard Harley is a serious Christian who at one time harbored hopes of becoming a pastor, and yet he recommends that people date many people before settling on one for a lifetime commitment.

Is it possible that you and I have different definitions of "dating"? For me, any appointment to spend time with another individual (coffee, movie, gym, picnic, gardening, museum) is a date. I don't see how having coffee with Joe, seeing a movie with Dave, and working out with Steve (assuming none of them thinks he's in an exclusive relationship with you) is inconsistent with Christian beliefs.

But again, I have no intention of telling you how to practice your faith. Just asking for clarification.

Oh, no doubt, I understand about the lack of date prospects. I don't mean that you should get your "20 dates" in over then next three months. Heck, my experience has stretched over 7 years <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

But you can go out on casual dates, without necessairly worrying about whether the dinner date is Mr. Right. You are probably eliminating too many potential prospects because they are not Mr. Right material, instead of realizing that even going out with a Mr. Wrong is valuable experience (unless you worry about him being a rapist or a murderer). I do mean it when I say that I probably learned more useful info from meeting Ms. Wrongs than from meeting Ms. Almost-Rights, because that really highlighted for me the kind of women I need to avoid like the plague.

I know, you are going to say that you already know what you need and what you can't stand, you just need to find it. But the trick is how to figure out if the next person you meet is in fact that Mr. Right - you need to learn skills to tell the difference between those who simply talk the talk and those who actually walk the walk.

And I second curious' question, why is it against your Christian beliefs to go out on dates?

AGG

i don't know why it is against my beliefs. i guess i didn't really word that right. i am just not going to waste my time dating those I KNOW are not right for me. i guess the way you said it agg with , 20 or more dates, i am picturing me like having a date with someone different every single night all of the time. that is just not me.

you know what, honestly, i just want to end this thread. i am overthinking things and getting a headache.

right, wrong, or indifferent i really loved (love) gekko and am having a difficult time getting over how much i miss him. i really DO NOT want to be searching for anyone else. i made mistakes in the relationship as did he, bottom line. i recognize that i should have been more vocal about when my boundaries were crossed, because i am quite sure he did not realize he was crossing them since i never stated what they were. it takes two. and our timing just was not right. maybe if i had met him a year from now, after he had had some time to be alone, etc, it would have been different.

i appreciate all of the input but i just don't want to talk about this anymore. i am honestly just doing what i said i was going to do, concentrate on ME. finishing my degree, getting some bills paid off now that i can, doing some remodeling in my home, etc... i have already cancelled out eharmony, emailed and asked them to remove now, even though i do not expire til november. i just don't want to deal with anything to do with men right now. i am going to be fine, but am still mourning my loss.

the end.
i think i will start a new thread of just happy non-thought provoking things now!

mlhb