J'COZ,

[color:"blue"]That last one is the only one I really believe.[/color]

OK. You know the rest is wayward spouse fog-babble Bull-Sht but you choose to believe this?

All WSs say that the way they feel has nothing to do with OP or the A. They all say they haven't been in love with the BS for years. The problems are NEVER about what they are doing but ALWAYS about not being in love with BS any more.

Deja moo...I've heard that bull before.

Part of the secret as you have already learned to some degree is to ignore the kind of things that a WS might say. I'm not saying it isn't how she feels, only that while she is fogged out (or in) she has no idea what reality is for the most part.

My then WW said "It isn't about xxx(OM)." She said, "This has nothing to do with anything you did or didn't do." She said, "It isn't about sex." She said, "I'm not going to be with him; I just want out." She said, "I never REALLY loved you." She said...a lot of bovine excrement about a lot of things. It all stunk and all vanished in a puff of smoke after the fog cleared. 30 days after NC began she sent me an email saying, "Thank you for being there for me and not letting me go."

Until a divorce is final don't even believe she really wants out of the marriage. Don't expect anything at all from her. Just do Plan A.

Mark

Thanks Jim and Mark,

She did come back to get a change of clothes so she could spend the night in a hotel. She practically begged for her laptop back and spent over an hour searching the house for it. It made me very sad to see her withdrawal in action.

From what I can tell, blocking Skype is a challenge and one that many IT departments are struggling with so I don't believe there is a way to block that, and all IM programs. As I mentioned, I did take her laptop, which she appears to be most angry about. She says she needs it for her freelance work and chatting with other people (not OM). I know that she does enjoy many non-OM related internet activities so I am a bit conflicted.

Dr. Harley says not to try to keep WW at home because the attention on the problem shifts focus to your "unreasonable" behavior. Does taking her laptop fall in this category too? I tried to offer compromises like shared internet time but she didn't like the idea of "big brother" watching what she did and believes that as long as she stays with me I will be watching her.

Point taken, Mark. I DO believe she had lost feelings of love before the A but I can also clearly feel her love from time to time, perhaps as the fog temporarily lifts. IF I had a chance to discover Plan A a few months ago I might be in a different place now but who can tell for certain.

Perhaps I would have better worded it, "I believe she felt she wasn't in love before the A" then again, maybe the A just pushed her further in that direction. Many of the things you remember your FWW saying sound very familiar. One thing she has stuck to, however, is that she did once love me.

When she called from the hotel she sounded calmer but a little snide, perhaps smug. She asked me to tell her why she shouldn't buy a new laptop. I told her a few reasons, including that they're really expensive and she already had one. She kept saying "you still haven't given me a reason" and I asked if she wanted me to talk her out of it. She said she did. Then she asked how I would feel if she bought a new one and I told her it would hurt me and she responded, "then I won't."

Now that I think about it, she took her webcam with her and because she sounded a little smug from the hotel I wonder if she went immediately out and bought one and is chatting with OM now. When she mentioned getting a laptop that would be "all hers" (this one was given to both of us by my parents but has been hers almost exclusively) she said she might buy one and not tell me.

I suppose it doesn't matter since if she is desperate enough she will find more ways to contact OM, regardless. I want to give it back to her if she promises NC but it will likely come across as blackmail and I don't want that.

Is this the fun part?
-JC

This morning I'm back to feeling like I've been punched in the gut. I know I shouldn't expect anything from her right now but the impact of her not being remourseful in the least hurts to the core. I don't believe she apologized once in the entire 12-hours following exposure. Ouch.

WSs generally are not apologetic for several months after NC.

Thanks for all of the responses and support, Jim <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WW is out at a friend's OctoberFest party tonight. When she gets back she will find her laptop sitting on her bed with a letter I wrote with my (broken) hand:

Dearest (WW),
My love for you is infinitely larger than the universe, such that previous it was beyond my comprehension tht a person could have the capacity for so much love. I never want to cause you pain or unhapiness again, even if the hapiness I bring comes at the possible expense of the greatest pain of my entire life.

You are a full grown woman that holds amazing beauty, inside and out and you are free to make your own choices in life, regardless of whether I posess your laptop or not. I expect you to stop all contact with "him" at least as long as you are my wife. I know that you don't want to and that it will be incredibly difficult and painful for you but I also know that with the love and support of your friends and family you can do it. You are stronger than you realize - just as you are more beautiful than you will ever know. When you look in the mirror I wish you could see yourself as those of us who are closest see you - an amazing person that fills the area with your light and energy.

If you have any respect or love or compassion for me as a friend, a father, a husband or a person you will do this. It is VITAL to our relationship - HOWEVER that relationship is ultimately defined, whether as spouse or friend. Your contined contact with "him" is NOT ok simply because you have lost your feelings of love for me. Besides being my (ex)lover, spouse, confidant and companion for life you are my BEST friend and someone I care very deeply for.

I BELIEVE IN YOU

-(BS)

I know that WW values our friendship and hopes that things will stay amicable when she leaves. I hope that appealing to that will benefit and not hinder my chances.

Many thanks to all who read and have supported my efforts.
-JC

I'm just going to warn you in advance that she's just going to crumple up that letter, throw it away, and then spew some venom at you, so you know what to expect.

LOL!
Well Jim, you pretty much nailed that one on the head. VERY funny that you chose those words since when she did exactly that I asked her if she was done "spewing venom" Of course she did not agree to NC and when I told her that I deserved to know everything she claimed she had told me everything.

She now engages in the game of 20 questions - "I've been honest with you, what do you want to know?" How about his name? Ummm, OK, Where did you meet this guy?" That's not important? OK, it's late, why don't you go to bed? She did admit that she's not planning to move to England but when I asked if he's planning to come here she said, "if things work out or maybe not."

Then I went downstairs and took the DSL modem, which had her fuming. She kept calling me "dad" saying I was controlling her life and deciding her future. Of course she didn't respond when I told her that she's deciding my future as well as the future of our daughter and that those decisions are far more important than whether the internet is shut off for a night. She claimed she just wanted to check her email - that it had been three days so she must have lots. I told her we could do that. Hook up the modem to download email and I asked if I could sit with her while she did that. She responded, "OK, dad!" Needless to say the internet stayed shut down until she left with DD to spend the day at her mom's.

When I first took her laptop she came up with a new nickname for me. She said I was going to end her relationship with this guy and take her hapiness so I am now the "snuffer" (it comes complete with a gesture that mimicks someone stomping out a cigarette butt). This morning she wasn't angry but depressed more and reiterated that I was going to end her relationship with OM.

Who is this person? She always felt bad about lying and even prided herself in being a "bad liar" Now it seems that she has built a whole second life shrouded in lies and deception. Of course I can't keep her from the internet since it is so ubiquitous. Her devious mind may try to get another modem that she can keep and hook up while I'm away all day at work.

What to do? What to do?

- The "Snuffer"

I got called chairman Mao when I found out my WW bought a prepaid calling card and called OM from a payphone after she agreed to NC with him. Now you just need to focus on her ENs while constantly patrolling for contact. Don't allow it to happen. I was in your same shoes last November, and things are much better now, so just follow the plan. Tell her you want her to be happy, but not at your expense, and you are going to do what it takes for the both of you to be happy. Don't argue, don't yell, just eliminate her ability to contact OM. After about 4 months, she'll probably start to reconnect with you again.

Nice! Didn't realize I was getting advice from someone as historically important as Chairman Mao! She also claimed that she was living in "Hitler's house" so it's clear that Plan A has only so much effect while WW is in the fog.

I will do anything I can to prevent contact - am considering calling my service provider and seeing if I can temporarily suspend my internet access but that eliminates the possibility of my working from home occasionally.

Understood. Don't be goaded into an argument and focus on ENs. Another poster put it well: "act, don't react" Glad that things are much better for you, Jim - you must be a ****** of a guy to survive your ordeal and I appreciate much the support!

-JC

Please tell me you put a keylogger on her computer before you gave it back? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I would strongly suggest you expose the affair to her parents, close friends, pastor, etc. Affairs thrive on secrecy so exposure is like chemotherapy to cancer.

Hi Melody,
No, she password protected the laptop so I wasn't able to install the KL even though I bought one - that's what forced me to expose with what I had and fortunately she didn't deny.

I have exposed to her family and closest friends, none of which she had told about the OM, just that she was done with our R. I am working with MIL who is firmly on my side. She spent the day at her parents yesterday and fortunately her aunt went through this about 15 years ago and had a talk with her (again, she left out the OM because she doesn't think it has anything to do with us).

Just finished SAA last night and didn't see anything about exposure in the book, which is disappointing. FIL went through this a couple of years ago and almost ended his marriage before he came to his senses. I want to expose to him but he can be such a well-meaning pest that I fear it may make things worse. Under good conditions she is annoyed by him so I'm not sure what to do.

WW is extremely upset, saying I am controlling her and taking her life away. Calmly tring to explain that it is the Internet and not her life but it's talking to a hate-spewing brick wall right now. She said again today that A will end because they can't communicate this way but that it won't change the course of action. She also said this is making it worse.

I'm conflicted because I don't want to maker her unhappy, driving us apart. I told her that but that I couldn't make her happy at my expense as Jim suggested.

-JC

Also, she took her rings off when I exposed on Friday (before taking the laptop). Any significance to this?

-JC

JC,

Exposure is part of fighting for your marriage. While she is lost in the fog you have a choice, respect her actions and wishes, which IMO are not worthy of respect, or fight to save the marriage. Leaving her alone to pursue OM will make her less stressed out, feel better about her choices (because no one will be reminding her how wrong they are) and let her off the hook for having to accept the consequences of her choices. But none of that will save your marriage.

Exposure and not letting her just walk away will make her very angry, angrier than you have ever seen her, but the alternative is to let her continue unabated down the road she is on.

You have to realize that every WS says the affair has nothing to do with the way they feel about the BS and the marriage. It is always too late to even try as far as they are concerned. The WS has already checked out and decided that they no longer want the marriage to work and that their love for the BS is long dead. They ALL say these things. That is the whole point of Plan A; to rebuild that love by meeting the WS's ENs, avoiding love busters and out competing the affair partner for the love of the WS. It isn't fair, is difficult to pull off and will drive you nuts, but it is either that or divorce.

Avoid the temptation to fix the relationship until the affair has ended and withdrawal is complete for her. MC, relationship talks, efforts to discuss changes you are making to yourself all are for naught at this point. You simply have to put pressure on the affair and try to win her back to you. Be the best YOU that you can be, keep the household going smoothly, protect the rest of the family from consequences of the affair and let her see that you are still a safe and pleasurable alternative to her other choice. Hard to do, but the only real way to accomplish the goal of saving the marriage and rebuilding it to prevent a recurrence.

The balance that needs to be established is that all of this must be done without doing anything that will support the continuation of the affair. Your marriage can survive her being angry. It can survive her being unhappy. It cannot survive her continuing the affair.

The significance of the rings coming off is that she has decided to remove the reminders that what she is doing is wrong. To her, the ring is a reminder of the vows she made and she has clearly decided to not fulfill those vows. It means she is struggling to justify what she is doing.

Mark

She did this to hurt you because you took away her fix. Forget about getting her to work on the relationship for now, just concentrate on meeting the ENs that she will allow you to meet, avoiding LBs, AND CUTTING OFF ALL ACCESS TO OM SO THERE IS NC AND SHE CAN GET THROUGH WITHDRAWAL. She says it has nothing to do with OM, that doing this is making things worse, and everything else she says is just a ploy to allow her to contact OM again. DON'T ALLOW IT! Trust me, it may take several months, but if you follow the plan of meeting her ENs that she allows you to meet (and she'll allow you to meet more the further you are into NC and withdrawal), avoiding LBs, and not allowing contact w/ OM, your situation will improve. You are just going to have to suck it up for a while to make it through withdrawal. DON'T ALLOW HER TO CONTINUE TO CONTACT OM. Doing so will allow your marriage to die a slow death. As much as she spews venom at you, she doesn't want to have to move out and support herself, but if you let her get deeper into this affair, she just may. I wouldn't give her back her laptop until you have it affair-proofed.

Thank you, Mark and Jim <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I exposed to another one of her best friends last night - again, WW told her friend she was leaving but not that there was another (online) party involved. Her friend told me she was going to chat with her. She just got off the phone with that friend and looked very down but not angry, which surprised me ("you talked to her last night and told her everything?" she asked. "I thought she already knew" was my response).

Also exposed to FIL after reading Mark's post. He was good- promised not to lecture and give it a day or two before calling her. WW appears to be in withdrawal (anger, then depression, more anger, etc.) but I'm pretty sure there has still been contact, just perhaps less. It LOOKS like she's mourning the loss of A but time will tell.

WW asked when she could have access to the internet again I asked if she was going to stop contact and she said "yes." I asked how I could be sure? She asked if I wanted to talk to OM and confirm that things were over. I said yes and then no. She said "you don't want to talk to him - he's angry with you too" (what a shame)

Continuing to work on myself. Offering to meet ENs although not accepted yet. NOT reacting to her anger and remaining calm but understanding. Must remind myself that Plan A will not make things better at this point but no Plan A will definitely make things worse.

Unfortunately I already gave back the laptop but I can still control the internet access and she knows that. She bought a separate cell phone and I believe she keeps it locked in her car. I call it the "affair phone" so I can't cut contact with him completely. Hoping it becomes more trouble than it's worth to her.

What both of you said about the rings makes sense. I told MIL to be alert t whether she was wearing them or not when she spent time with her family yesterday. Told MIL if she's putting them on to meet with her family then she's being deceptive to them and probably feeling embarassed.

You guys rock - I can't thank you enough for the support and advice!
-JC

Just confiscate the affair phone. I'm sure she sleeps sometime. Do not allow the affair to continue!

I'm certain that's why she keeps her car locked, even in the garage because she thinks (knows?) I will smash it. That will feel good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Let me spell it out for you. Take her car keys when she is sleeping so you don't have to smash out your windows. Don't you have a copy anyway?

JC,

Instead of smashing the phone, get the number and carrier and then see if you can get to the call records.

Check the call log, in, out and missed. Check SMS log, in and out. Gather info. Don't let it be known you have accessed it as it could be a way for you to verify when and if NC really takes hold. If you smash it, she gets another one, different number, hides it better and you are left in the dark.

Instead of taking out your anger on the phone or other inanimate object, join a gym, take up rock climbing, start jogging...find another way to blow off steam. I'm not saying you should not be angry only that you need to control your anger and find something that benefits you and the rest of the family as a focus of that anger. Use your anger to refine your plan and decide what you will need from recovery if it gets to that.

Do all you can to avoid venting at her or her possessions. Vent here, show her your best qualities only. Make no attempts at revenge or getting even. Heal from your pain by rising above it and give up thoughts of revenge and hurting her in return.


Mark