Excellent points, noodle, and I do agree with this. Some are not foggy at all, they are simply WAYWARD and have a wayward mentality. This is often the case with serial cheaters, for example.


And this is a very important point. It is an exercise in futility to listen to a fogged out wayward who is mentally confused and full of rationalizations. The time to listen is when the affair ends and recovery is under way. It matters not a whit if SallyWW felt she didn't "love" her husband back in 1950, it doesn't mean she CAN'T love him in the future and has nothing to do with the present.

Yep ML...

Happens all the time. I often see BS fog in the form of refusal to see what is really there instead of what they wish/wanted to be there.

They look right at A and report seeing B.

For example [ok..extreme example] "Sure Joe Shmoe was an unemployed thrice divorced father of six [who has custody of none] with a bit of a drug habit when we met but I'm just so suprised that he's doing this to me!"

Or less extreme..."I just had this slight unease...I couldn't quite put my finger on it but there was just something about the way she reacted to X that raised my back hairs"..."Oh yeah? Well what did you do about it?" ..."Well, I didn't know what to do but I didn't want to offend or upset anyone so I just let go of it".

At ANY point a person is avoiding a fully consequence laden reality there is a high probability that fog is involved.

Incidentally...

Pretty much ALL BSs are guilty of fogese and quite fluent.

There is just no WAY that some person you live with night and day..day and night..for YEARS...can deceive you that easily or carry on a whole second life without you noticing.

No Way. They need your cooperation to pull that off.

Use SCs example...she says she wasn't in love with her H when she married him...

OK..now I'm not letting her off the hook for her dishonesty there...but where was HE during this?

He didn't notice a lack of enthusiasm? She's THAT good of a liar? Really?

Well maybe so..there is always that nil percent who are excellent liars/con men but they are the exception and not the rule...even in those cases the truth will be revealed shortly UNLESS the BS is willing to adopt a lifestyle that supports the deception which in itself involves CHOICE and judgement and often some self deception as well.

There's a comet hurtling towards earth but I'm sure it will be fine...la la la la.

Agree, noodle. Some of the worst FOG we see is from betrayed spouses who want to deny reality. We recently had one lady who told me that her H, on his 9th affair, spent the night in a hotel room with his lover but did not have sex [even the OW admitted otherwise]. Talk about denial! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I view the fog issue this way: a falling down drunk might manage to slur the "truth" occasionally in his drunken ramblings, but more often he does not have the capacity to even KNOW the truth because his mind is IMPAIRED. An affairee has the same impaired mentality so it would make no sense to imagine she even knows the truth, much less take it seriously. Besides, the person is likely to feel completely different when he sobers up.

Better to wait until the person is in his right mind to take anything seriously. If any conclusions about the state of the marriage are going to be reached, they should usually be reached, or validated, in other ways.

Oh yes. I was there for awhile. And it was no fun at all. It' a choice to live in the "gray" areas, which is what a fogged out wayward reminds me of. A person who has slipped into the gray.

This reminds me of the poster who was arguing about all the black and white thinking here. We weren't large minded enough to be able to think gray. LOL When an affair by it's very nature, requires complete black and white thinking to bust up, and to even avoid in the first place.

But that's another thread, I suppose.

What bothers me SC, about what you are saying is what does it mean that you didn't "love" your husband when you married him? And don't now. Love is a choice, not a feeling. I purposly married my husband because there weren't any feelings of infatuation. I picked him because of his values, personality, goals and a similar vision of the future, as I had. And he did the same. We discussed it in length and still do. Even my dad told me he didn't "love" my mother when he married her...but afterwards, with time and kids and the experiences they shared he grew to "love" her more than life itself. It's all about chioces.

Fog truth also involves truth taken out of context or extended beyond what it will naturally support in regard to conclusions.

An example would be..."You didn't notice my haircut!"

OK..that might be true.

Does it justify an affair? No.

Is there MISSING truth..for example...did you TELL me that you were hurt, disappointed, etc? Did you even KNOW at the time how you were affected by and be honest about that or did you brush it off and stew in resentment?

Has it become merely a convenient true fact which supports your justification but had no actual bearing on your choice to be unfaithful [or whatever...people also use the fact of infidelity to support rationalization too]?

Selective and convenient truth can be used as a very coy misdirection and allow continued evasion from personal responsibility.

Noodle, can you expound on that. Examples?

Would it be something like "I couldn't take any action because I was so shaken by his affair" "My self esteem was in the gutter all those years having to live with his infidelity".

You mean like excuses to not take action, or change ones circumstance?

My mother turned to gambling as way to escape my dad's alcoholism. She had false ideas about alcoholism, a wife's place and couldn't see that him bottoming out might save his life. She never said anything or complained or anything like that, but I could see what was going on. Well it's hard when the alcoholic is very responsibile and loving...not quite as easy as an abusive drunk in knowing what needs to be done. The self protection factor is not glaringly there. It's also pretty obtuse with an functioning alcoholic who is remains very talented and active...well, until the old liver shuts down and the body can no longer tolerate alcohol.

My point being that sometimes it is very subtle and it takes it coming to a head before you can believe it.

SC...

I am honestly perplexed about choosing to marry someone that you did not love...Perhaps I'm incredibly naive, or heck even just plain dumb on that front, but I don't get that...And maybe it's because I did have the fairytale-butterflies-he was and is everything I'd ever dreamed of and more-handsome, well educated, a Christian, has huge respect for women, he's hilarious-we had the big expensive wedding-I had the princess dress-the whole nine-I later screwed it up as everyone around here knows, but I have done and continue to do everything I can to rectify that-it's going well! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Even in my affair, as much as I tried to villify Mr. W, I still could not say that I didn't love him-I never even gave the ILYBINILWY speech...I actually said to OM, "I can't imagine a world where there is no Mr. & Mrs. W." So yeah I was really screwy and foggy as all get out-a cake eater in the worst way...my brain was a big pile of conflicted goo...shameful...

Anyway...Can you give me a background on this? I'm not trying to put you in a corner, I'm just really trying to get what you are saying...Why DID you marry your husband? How long did you date? Was he your first boyfriend? On your wedding day did you really think, "I do not love this man."? When you were dating, did you say that you loved him? If so, why? When he asked you to marry him, did you say yes just to wear the ring? Was it about money? Were you pregnant? As you can see, I'm just all over the map trying to grasp this...I'd appreciate your help...

Mrs. W

It was not my intent to annoy.


That would be bad reasoning, but I think on most occassions people factor in a bit more than that.


I can't speak for all BS's, but yes I want to know the truth. Maybe that's the disconnection in this discourse. IMHO, fog speak is not lying. Lying is when you know the truth and say something different. Fog speak is when someone says something that is not consistent with reality. But, as you said, it wouldn't change my course of action. Some may factor in chance of success in their decision, but I don't think its appropriate.

Mrs. W., I know that you were not addressing me, but did you see my post, regarding the use of the word "love", and it being an action and not a feeling?



I didn't have the butterflies in the stomach feeling. And no infatuation, no anxiousness, etc. (or the big expensive wedding), but I did see in him everything you describe as your reasons for marrying Mr. W.

I love talking to him.
I love being with him
I love who he is and how he treats me (as well as others)
I love that he is so spiritual

But I can honestly say that in the context of feelings I had not had the time or experiences with him to say I "loved" him. I chose to love him through marrying him and my treatment of him.


Now of course as time go by and we experience the marital stuff, I am getting the feelings that follow the actions. And after not seeing him for a few days I do get the butterflies.

I saw your post weav, and I agree with it...It is a choice...I had to learn that...I'm still glad I had the butterflies and was all "twitterpated" (lol) during our courtship though...It made it easier for me to see that I could get those feelings back through ACTION...Our actions in our courtship were what caused the butterflies anyway...We were very considerate of each other back then (and now)...did everything together...talked all the time...things that we let slide prior to the affair...A big mistake that we won't let happen again...

I still just don't get why someone would choose to marry someone they didn't love...I just can't wrap my brain around that...

Mrs. W

What I can't wrap my mind around is manipulating someone into marrying me under false pretenses. That is an amazing level of DECEIT and FRAUD that I can't fathom, even as a former wayward myself.

I agree with the general statement that BS's can be in a fog, but I don't think they are neccessarily the same type of "fog". I think one is a distorted view of reality, while the above may be a distorted view of normalcy.

Most times I view this kind of like the old saying about "How do you boil a frog?" If you throw one in a pot of boiling water, he'll jump right out. But if you put him in a pot of cold water and slowly turn the heat up, you'll have yourself a boiled frog.

The deception and whole second life doesn't get created in an instant. It starts in small and seemingly inconsequential ways. You adjust to each one and each incremental step never seems like a big deal. What's normal keeps changing. Late nights at work expand from 1 a week to 2. Business travel goes from once a month to once a week, etc. Eventually, you realize this isn't normal, but its too late, you're already "boiled"

Anyway, in the above case, its not that you don't clearly see your reality, its that you can't see how abnormal it is.

I thought this was very well said. In these cases it is so important to get the BS to see that he needs to change as well. It's important to get the BS to focus on themselves...but very hard because the focus has been on the WS for so long. There is a poster here that comes to mind going through this right now. (not on this thread though)

Yes rprynne,

It happens one boundary, one step, one standard at a time.

The BS runs into a situation where their standard/judgement/training fails them...either they didn't recongise the issues in the first place or they conflict avoided and hoped for the best.

Nevertheless...the frog is IN the pot whether he perceives it or not/whether it is hot or cold... and THAT is the distorted reality I am talking about. Once you are IN the pot your perceptions will be different than they were before...you HAVE to begin to rationalise and make a defensive structure to justify staying IN the pot.

If you are IN the pot...and you DON'T know it..you have bigger problems than who your spouse is sleeping with.

The degree of "heat" is merely a question of intensity...there is no difference between BS fog and WS fog in my observation.

You were OUT of the pot and now you are IN the pot...the temperature is irrelevent it is the POTENTIAL that is the threat.

The INTENSITY of discomfort is motivation ONLY to be willing to see "reality" and make choices based on it.
Discomfort plays a role there but usually only in hindsight.

Let me give an example there.

Say that you have been trained to believe that IB is a GOOD thing.

So obviously you don't challenge it.

Well you are in the pot now..there is a potential for destruction already in motion...and you don't even KNOW that because you have a false ideal that is based on some philosophical concept that sounds nice but doesn't actually work in practical terms.

So your spouse has IBs left and right..or you do. Or both.

This wreaks all the havoc that IBs generally wreak..one of you has an affair.

Well..the boundary/standard that failed was IBs.

So regardless of whether you are the BS or the WS you are confronted with the reality that the world doesn't work the way you thought it did...IBs were supposed to make us free and happy! Not selfish and withdrawn and uninvested!

We were in the pot and we didn't even KNOW it. This is a crisis of perception!

Alternatively...A BS who DOES have that boundary but fails to enforce it and conflict avoids...same outcome BUT the BS cringes and loses respect for the WSs judgement and is already seriously resentfull by the time the affair happens.

That BS is still in the pot..they still went into denial and unreality because they KNEW what potential lay at the end of the IB road but they were too insecure/fearfull/whathaveyou to enforce a boundary that required the investment of the other spouse.

To expand Weaver...

BSs use the affair also as a rationalization/defense for all sorts of things.

Let me give an example.

'I am so hamstrung because of the irresponsibility of WS that I can not enforce a boundary at this time"

Well..ok..how about next week? Will you be able to next week?

Next year?

How about never?

The reason they can't enforce a boundary TODAY is the same reason they couldn't enforce one before the A...and probably played a big role in there BEING an A.

The A did not create this environment it's just the currect excuse. A convenient truth that is not contextually true.

That's just one example..there are lots more...I'm sure you can think of plenty.

Yes, but I wasn't really asking for myself. I wanted you to keep going because this is VERY important. This type of discussion literally gave me the ahah moments I needed to see where I was screwing up my own life with very poor choices and NO real boundaries that would lead to a happy, productive R.

For me, the focus was entirely on him. It wasn't until after at least a year and a half of marriage builders and 6 months of no contact with him that I finally "got it". It's a process and requires a genuine desire for change...and a few good people who are willing to say the things that need to be said.

And I was with one of the con man/expert liars/ sociopath...but still putting all the blame and focus on him just kept me in exactly the same place, day in and day out. And I would have chosen poorly again, without some radical changes of my own.

When we're talking about BS fog, are we talking before or after discovery?

Before exposure of the infidelity, a BS may sense that something doesn't feel quite right. But because they usually have no reason to think that anything is wrong in the marriage (ie. the WS hasn't complained or seemed unhappy), they look at all the other possible sources of discomfort - their own moods, hormones, life pressures, changes in circumstances, apprehensions about coming life events... It's not stupid to do that - it's rational. So the 'fog' at that point is not so much a perverse refusal to accept the obvious, but a reluctance to leap towards blaming the primary relationship.

The WS, on the other hand, knows perfectly well where any feelings of discomfort or fear are coming from. THAT 'fog' IS a wilful refusal to face facts square on. They know excatly where any cognitive dissonance is coming from.

After the affair is exposed, then the BS is faced with the choice of getting big enough to cope with the monster they've uncovered, or staying small and trying to squeeze the problem into a size they can handle. That's where real BS fog creeps in.

The BSs who survive this devastation are the ones who take a deep breath and prepare to become whatever they need to be in order to deal. For many BSs, 'reframing' the problem so that it's small enough for their unchanged selves to cope with, is the only way they can manage things. Growing is too scary. It's a real shame.

TA