I could no longer edit my main thread subject, (WW wants to move away w/o me) so I'm starting this new thread (see my signature for links to previous)

I continued Plan A this weekend and WW and I had an enjoyable time: saw a movie, ate out, watched TV & DVDs, played boardgames & videogames. The latter I actually consider quite a notable step because on D-Day, when WW was trying to explain (justify) her actions, she said that she had 'outgrown' me because I liked to play videogames. I was confused at the time because in 2007 she has actually logged far more game time than I had. So for her to actually suggest we play a videogame together was further proof that many of the things she said then were simply not true.

A small thing I picked up on was that she was telling me about Orlando Bloom's car accident and told me the year, make & model of the car. I accidentally slipped up and said 'Hey, that's the same as your car' but when WW confirmed, she used the phrase 'our' or 'us' or 'we' instead.

WW was also very eager to help out with paying for the weekend's activities. I took her to the new Skechers store in town on Sunday evening and she bought me a new pair of shoes.

Probably the only downer was that we discovered a crack in the windshield of 'our' car. WW said she had noticed it a few days ago but kept forgetting to mention it to me. Now it was quite large and she was surprised it had grown so quickly. I noted that it would probably grow to encompass the whole windshield within a couple of weeks, so we should get it looked at right away. WW said she felt stupid now for forgetting it continuously. I tried to reassure her that she was not stupid.

The biggest surprise came late last night after we had gone to bed together: she expressed remorse! (I guess I can strike that bit from the PBL!). WW said she was sorry for what she'd done, sorry she'd hurt me, and sorry she'd 'messed up' my life. I reminded her that I forgave her for what she had done. She also said she was sorry she was making me move out and asked if I could forgive her for moving away. I said that was in the future so I couldn't say. She noted that it was 'the near future.' She reiterated how she was confused and had doubts about what she was doing, but that she just couldn't keep working where she is now. She also apologized for not taking time off from work for the two of us to go on a vacation.

I'm definitely unsure now of whether or not to enter Plan B after she moves out this coming weekend. I'm calling in to the radio show this morning to get some advice.

I just finished talking with Dr. Bill Harley & Joyce on the radio show and Dr. Harley recommended that I continue Plan A after WW moves out this weekend. At least for a few weeks or a month. He also cautioned that her change in behavior could be a smokescreen designed to let me down easy.

WW has affair.....then wants to move away?.....and yall have no kids???? Its totally unfair to keep you in limbo. Hmmm, I dont want to say what I would do.

God Bless and good luck.

BG,

My ex called me "hon" for months after our divorce and even after she started dating the guy she's with now. Years of habit. Don't read too much into your WW's words. You're grabbing for threads of hope, which is understandable. I did the same.

There does appear to be some hope. I'm sure she is genuinely confused. You're not making it easy since you're being nice.

Just be careful about false hope.

Look, I wrote my ex long letters before she left. I spilled my feelings out on these letters and some even brought tears to her eyes. I greeted her with one of them one night, had her read it, then danced with her to "You Were Always on My Mind" by Elvis. This was right before she left.

None of these things mattered. She left and carried on with her desire to be free and single and just delete me out of her life.

I'm just letting you know so that you don't look at these things and get false hopes. She and I went on dates together, we locked elbows when we were out. We even went to a comedy club the night of our divorce. That was a night I was laughing on the outside and dying on the inside.

I had hope. It was false.

She later claimed that I destroyed our chance for hope by things that I did after our D. I had a normal reaction to what happened. I had a hard time accepting that it was truly over and was in shock. I ended up in the hospital 2 months after our D, holding a nurse's hand while crying uncontrollably. It was the worst night of my life, but it was rock bottom and I've been up ever since.

She may be genuinely confused and concerned. Just err on the side of "she's not" and protect yourself mentally for the fact that it may truly be over when she leaves. It is very good that she has expressed regret. I've never even gotten that much.

You're the one there dealing with her words and her actions. I only wish to encourage you to be careful and not read into things too much. It could very well be a mirage and one she's not consciously trying to put up.

Good luck and keep posting. Things will be very hard for you when she leaves. Coming home to an empty house will be terribly painful.

Come here for support. You have my email. Feel free to contact me if you need support.

There's many men that have been in your shoes here. I'm sure any and all would gladly provide a friendly ear and advice.

Take care.

A few more weeks in Plan A (presuming you can handle it) would be OK as far as I'm concerned.

IF you did it immediately it may be perceived as punishment.

Plus...she's likely to be very lonely in her new home and you can be there meeting her needs for communication.

Also...pounce on that vacation talk she just had and try to get her to agree to go on one with you. Even if you have to present it as a "closure" vacation. Whatever. Just more time to Plan A here.

I wouldn't do this long. Don't try to make holiday plans with her. You can't continue to cushion her fall to rock bottom.

Mr. Wondering

I think that some of the fog may be starting to wear off now that there is NC and she is moving away. As long as she doesn't immediately find a new OM in Lost Wages, CA, I think your situation has some hope. Your WW seems like the proud, stubborn type who once she makes a decision (like to cheat on you), she doesn't want to go back just to save face. I think a month of plan A would be good, followed by plan B before she finds another OM. You need her to want you to follow her to Lost Wages by the new year, otherwise, she'll seek out someone else to fill the void and slowly detach from you again.

Here's a rough transcript of my session on the radio show this morning. I missed a bit of the opening, but you all know the setup.


Joyce: So your W had an A. Is she still in contact with OM?

Me: She doesn't seem to be, no. As far as I know, the last contact that she had with him was about a month ago, Sept. 7, which was the same day as the exposure.

Joyce: Interesting. However, your wife is moving out for a new job in another city. And it doesn't have to do with the marriage, it really has to do with her new job. Is that the idea?

Me: She's been wanting to look for a new job and she didn't tell me about it at first. That was before I knew about the A. In her e-mail to her friend she wrote that it 'would give me a good reason to leave' and now she has a job lined up and she has a place to move lined up and she's going to be moving this weekend.

Joyce: So your bottom-line question is?

Me: I don't know if I should go into Plan B after she moves out. I was originally planning to, because it seemed to fit the story of Jon & Sue, but this last week or two she has been totally different and she's been very remorseful to me and affectionate and seems to be conflicted about everything.

Joyce: So you kind of have a bit of hope. You don't really want to break off all ties at this point when you feel she might be coming back on board. Let's turn to Dr. Harley...

Dr. Harley: Tell me, do you have any children?

Me: No

Dr. Harley: How long have you been married?

Me: Almost 8 years

Dr. Harley: The feeling that I have is if the A is ended, she might be coming out of the fog. She set this job up at a time that she was still in the fog. Now that she's coming out, it might very well be a good time for you to stick with Plan A even if she moves out. So I guess my approach to your problem, knowing what you told me just now, is to stay in contact with her, make sure you try and figure out what it was that was missing in the relationship that she would've expressed to you. A lot of times people will come back because they really miss something.

It's sort of interesting when you consider an A as a piece of the solution. In other words, when a spouse is meeting needs A, B and C, but not meeting D, E and F, it's tempting to get somebody else to meet D, E, and F, and stay with your spouse, who meets A, B and C. She may find you're very good at some things but not very good at others. And the things you're not good at keeps her thinking there might be somebody else for her. But as soon as she's gone from you, she's going to miss A, B and C. The solution, of course, is to become an expert at D, E and F on your part. You don't have to meet all her ENs, but you have to meet the ones most important to her. And if she had an A, chances are one of those ENs was being met by this other guy in a very good way. And you'll have to be good at meeting that need yourself. Perhaps she'll give you a chance even though you're separated.

At the same time, I will tell you that separation is not good for marriage. Chances are she'll have another A, even if she's getting along with you. In other words, you call her every day, you try to get together with her on weekends, you try to see her... and she's developing a relationship on the side with somebody else. To be together every night of the week is an extremely important piece of the puzzle of how you get your marriage back together again.

Joyce: Well, this is where my confusion comes in. Are you planning to move to that city eventually yourself?

Me: No, I'm not interested in going there, because I would need to find a job there and it's far away-

Joyce: So right now the plan is she's got this new job in this other city, she's getting an apartment?

Me: The company she's going to work for, they're letting her move into the company condo. And I'm going to have to move out of our apartment here and into a 1Bd that I can afford on my own-

Joyce: But you're not planning to join her at that company condo?

Me: No, she hasn't wanted me to.

Joyce: Ah, that's the part I missed. OK.

Me: She says she just needs to do this and be away from me and see if she can miss me.

Joyce: Well then, Bill, we see some red flags here, don't we? She's starting a whole new life in another city without BHHFSGuy.

Dr. Harley: Yeah, if the reason she's moving away is to see whether or not she misses him, then we're all in trouble. You see, she'll have to participate in a program of recovery if this is going to work. If she just moves away and says 'Can I live without you? I'll see.' Well, of course she can live without you. We can all live without a particular person, especially if we can get somebody else to take their place. So in this situation she may be saying, 'I don't know how much I'm going to miss you, but we'll see.' From your perspective, you're saying 'That's a funny question to be asking. Don't you care about me at all?' And that is, of course, the nut of the entire problem here. And that is that she doesn't care about you. What she does is she is caring about herself and 'what is good for me right now' and 'I can only think about myself' and 'I can't be worried about him, I can't be worried about any other man.' The question is 'What man is going to give me the opportunities that I need in life and it looks like my husband isn't going to be one of them. Maybe I can find somebody else who can do that.' If that's the case, then, of course, you need to go to Plan B.

Me: How will I know when it's time to do that?

Dr. Harley: You know what I would do, I would ... be in Plan A through the transition. And when she moves away for a month I'd stick to Plan A.

Joyce: Have weekend visits, is that the idea?

Dr. Harley: Yeah, and then look at her for a clue as to whether or not she's thinking that the two of you can work this thing out and as soon as she says 'Y'know, I'm not feeling that this is going to work. I'm getting used to the idea of being apart from you.' See, at that point then I'd break into Plan B

And incidentally, remember that Plan B is not a way of getting her back. It's a way of putting you on hold so that if she changes her mind and comes back to you and says 'Y'know I really think you're a better person for me than anyone else I've seen lately' you can still be attracted to her. Otherwise, you're gonna be saying to yourself 'This woman's my worst nightmare. As soon as somebody better comes along in life she's gonna be gone!'

Joyce: And the ideal thing is that she NOT move away and she NOT have the job in the other city. Even if you were happily married, this would be a design for disaster. So this is not going to be helping in the re-establishment-

Dr. Harley: If you were happily married, this would be a big mistake. So the biggest problem you have right now is, and then the question you have to keep asking yourself is 'Do I really want to be married to a woman who is constantly thinking 'Is he the best I could possibly get in life and if he is the best man for now I'll stay with him another six months until I find somebody better.'' I mean, if she's really in that mode where she's thinking about personal development and 'what man will give me the best opportunities in life?' then you've gotta get away from this woman because she's gonna hurt you.

Me: That's where she was a month ago and just within the last couple of weeks, ever since she gave her notice, she's totally turned around. She started expressing remorse to me and how sorry she was and that I treat her so well and she doesn't deserve to be treated so well-

Dr. Harley: That CAN be a smokescreen.

Joyce: Because she's anticipating leaving, right?

Dr. Harley: That's right, and she says 'It's not your fault it's all my fault' and it's her way of exiting with a wave.

Joyce: Yeah, And easing her guilt somewhat being kind to you

Dr. Harley: Well, not wanting you to feel bad about yourself.

I find it amazing that the Harley's so often recomend going/staying with Plan A. By their own admission it works less than 15% of the time and from what I read it seems that your WW is treating you like a puppy dog that she is leaving behind while she starts her new life going to college.

FWIW, Plan B is the one, especially if her dreamworld is based on your financial support.

Best of luck

Okay, so you said that the Harleys recommended you stay in plan A for a month or so after she moves?

Reading your recollection of the convo, it almost sounds 2 me as though they were suggesting that, after getting more info about her moving and her behavior 2ward you as the date approaches, she might be exiting, more than anything else. And that plan B might really be in order here?

Or did I get the gist wrong?

-ol' 2long

Another thing.

You say you can't afford this apartment, so you're planning on moving as soon as she goes?

And you can't afford coaching with one of the Harleys, so you called in2 the radio show and got some not-so-definitive 'plan'?

Signing a lease on an apartment is a big deal. It's been a long time for me, but things like deposits and credit checks and references come 2 mind, as do things like terms of the lease (e.g., is it a monthly? or a 6-month or 12-month lease?). In any event, likely a lot more money in the short term than staying where you are (though perhaps not cheaper to stay in the long haul).

Reason I'm asking these questions is:

Are you really saving money, considering the delicacy of the si2ation, by doing what you're planning?

Or:

Is it possible that spending the deposit money on a few sessions with the Harleys - either Steve or Jennifer - while paying the next month's rent on the place you're currently in be less expensive and more efficacious in the short term?

MB coaching is very efficient. If there's any possibility of getting your W 2 call in from her new place (easier than in-person counseling in this case, by a long shot), the Harleys will know how 2 make it happen, and sooner rather than later.

I do agree with the seniors' assessment, though. It'd be far better if she would decide not 2 leave. It doesn't mean it's over if she does, but it sure makes the next step easier for her.

-ol' 2long

The way I see it is that I can stop Plan A and go into Plan B at any time (a week, a month, etc.) but I cannot 'take back' or undo Plan B once I've started it. So it's probably best to try and continue Plan A while she's receptive to it.

I agree that Plan A will probably not change her mind, but I think it can lay a good foundation for Plan B, that is provide a good contrast. Also, WW is not dependent on me for financial support.

Not the day after, but before the end of October.

I probably could've spent the money for the coaching. I thought I would give the radio show a try and see if it answered my basic question (Should I still begin Plan B now that WW has shown remorse and may be out of the fog)

Our current place is $995/month. The new apartment I'm moving to is $655/month (6-month lease) and the deposit + application fee will cost me $325. So even in the short-term it's actually less expensive. You also need to realize that WW was paying the full $995 before, so it's not like this move is a small savings of $340/month for me, it's actually an increase of $655 for me.

The deposit money would cover one $195 session with the Harleys + the next month's rent at $995 = $1,190. That's still more expensive than the $980.

My parents have agreed to assist with financial issues and I think they would agree to help out with paying for the phone coaching if I asked. However, WW needs to be willing to do that w/me if it's going to be worth much.

I think we're all in agreement that it'd be better if she didn't leave. However, it's all set up and it's going to happen. I can no longer plan on 'maybe she won't leave' and instead have to plan on what I will do after she leaves. If you read the first post of my second thread, you'll see that this is something she's been planning for months and now I'm just in the final few days before it happens.

What it really comes down to is WW's intentions. As Dr. Harley noted, she made this decision in the fog (with the support of her family, unfortunately). She may be out of the fog now, based on her recent expressions of remorse and affection. But she may NOT be out of the fog and is actually just trying to let me down easy. I think I will 'hope for the best, prepare for the worst' in that my apartment plans are designed to help prepare me for her forever separating from me. Meanwhile, continuing Plan A for a little while after she moves out is designed to fan the flames of hope for a change of heart on her part and willingness to 'do whatever it takes' to recover the marriage (MB phone coaching).

BHHFSGuy

Thanks for the link to your story while reviewing my post "need help Fast".

IMO, great for plan A but what you need to do now is a 180. Stop worrying about this for now and act as if you are going forward with your life. Obviousley your W is having difficulty in WANTING to work on your M. The way I see it you have been busting your hinder in an effort to meet her EN. Now meet some of your own. Do something with your self.

Refer to the post from star*fish on how this is accomplished.

Wish you the best my friend. I am in the begining stage of finding out, and I have a LONG way to go!

"So....back off and let go. If what you're doing isn't working...stop doing it. Michelle Weiner Davis has some divorce-busting strategies that work well with the MB stuff....and in cases where the other spouse feels smothered or controlled....I think these well. The strategy is called a 180....because you go 180% from what you're doing. The following is a guideline....the important thing is that you change your approach and give the withdrawn spouse a chance to turn to you".

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

Bguy,

A couple comments for you.

I would not read much into your WW being nice to you prior to moving. Foggy or not, WS's still have an objective and say and do things to try and achieve that objective. What's your WW's objective? Most likely, and in simplest terms, she wants to see if she's happier being "single" while keeping all her options open. Being "single" may or may not include trying to rekindle things with OM. Being nice, being remorseful are ways of keeping her options open. She probably thinks that there's a slight chance that she may want to return to the M, but she thinks its more likely you'll end up with a D. If you end up with a D, she wants to make sure you are still friends and think highly of her.

My guess is, she's not confused about her objective. She may be confused about how to tell you that, she may be unsure as to what's going to happen, but not confused about what she wants right now.

She can't just blurt that out and say that, because you would reject it. All this sounds pretty manipulative and it is. But its probably hard for you to believe. I imagine your WW has never been that manipulative before. But people get that way when they are trying to do something they know is wrong and they need other people to support them in doing it.

I would expect over the coming weeks, she'll start to lay out the ground rules of your separation. My guess is they will fit very well with her objective. If you negotiate with her about it, she will give on the details, she will do what you ask or agree to do what you ask, so long as it does not compromise her objective.

About the advice from the Harley's. The Harley's have advised me in the past to stay in plan A. Essentially what they told me was that plan B was not an option. I won't go into a ton of details, but the gist of it was that your WW has gotten so used to being away from you that plan B won't be a blip on the radar. So plan A until you decide you want a D. In retrospect, I should not have followed that advice. I find myself stuck in a limbo of married with no marriage.

I agree that plan B immediately upon her departure would appear punitive, so I would wait a little while. Agree to what ground rules she gives you, and follow that for 2-3 weeks. Then a plan B letter.

For obvious reasons, I'm no plan B expert, but I would have some slightly different terms for your plan B. Most notably make it clear that your terms are to agree to attempt recovery as opposed to recover. You can even set the stage for that during your remaining weeks of plan A.

I think WS's in these kinds of situations have a couple of big fears. The first is that attempting and failing at recovery will give you a false hope and then crush you and then you will hate them. So they reason its best not to even try. The second is that attempting and succeeding at recovery will force them to face what a stupid choice they made. Again, they reason it is best not to even try. The third is the fear that if they don't make the break now, they will be trapped in a loveless marriage. I think your remaining plan A and then your plan B letter should do its best to mitigate those fears.

Just my thoughts. I wish you the best of luck.

Just a quick thought here. Have you told her that you forgive her and that you don't want her to go?

Just wondering. Her pride at this point may be preventing her from really agreeing to work on the marriage.

(Since my Second thread's subject got changed, I was considering going back there to continue posting. But I got quite a few responses here and this week marks a new phase anyway, so I'm going to stick here)

This past week has been quite strange (or maybe I've just felt strange). WW continued to show affection, admiration and show interest in SF. But I wasn't really 'feeling it,' so to speak. Instead, I felt weird because WW seemed to be doing things I wished she had done a while ago and now those things weren't eliciting feelings of happiness in me. And I think the problem was that because I had no transparency from her, I had no evidence that these gestures were genuine and evidence of a change of heart. Instead, they just seemed to fit into the theory that WW is attempting to make sure I don't hate her and she still has a backup plan. There is a more evidence of the latter in the last month: 'Will you forgive me for moving away?' 'I don't want us to hate each other like my divorced parents.' Also contributing to the odd feeling I had was the fact that she was acting this way within days of moving out.

Wednesday was WW's final day at work. I took her out to the newest restaurant in town for dinner. During the dinner I tried to utilize the conversation skills I've learned, but it was a bit hard for me because the only thing we really had to converse about was her work: how her last day went, saying goodbye to other employees, eating the cake, what her manager said about her, would they fill her position, etc. My Plan A efforts at trying to meet this #1 EN of hers just weren't as strong because my heart wasn't in it. And again, I think this was because I knew she was moving out soon, so I didn't really have the hope of 'Maybe if I can meet this need successfully she'll change her mind.'

Before I left for work on Thursday morning, I reminded her to create the list for me of what items she planned on taking with her when she moved out. When I got back from work that evening, she had it ready and we went over it briefly. She was hesitant about a lot of things (even items that she owned prior to our marriage) but I agreed to it all. I thought it was a bit odd she was planning to take our older videogame system since she had bought it for me prior to our marriage (and the whole 'I've outgrown you' speech she gave me on D-Day).

I also learned that FIL would be flying into a nearby city on Saturday morning and would help WW load her stuff into a rented moving vehicle and driving it out to her new place. He would then fly back on Sunday. I reminded WW that I'd be busy Friday night, all day Saturday and Sunday morning with a big weekend of events for my workplace. This worked out well for me because it gave me a really great excuse to not be around while she and FIL moved her things out. I did not want to be there.

On Friday night, when I got back from the work event quite late, there were boxes throughout the place and WW was relatively packed up. We both had to get up early Saturday morning. Me to get to the work event and her to pick up FIL from the airport. I kept things quite normal and left like I would normally leave for work, but also wished her a safe trip. WW hugged me longer than normal and looked a bit sad after. She noted that she would call me and I just said OK. Although I thought of this moment as possibly the last time we would ever see each other, I didn't want to make much of it. Part of this is that I know 'closure' on 'her terms' is extremely important to WW. And I didn't want to give her the satisfaction of 'the right goodbye' or her leaving on a good note or me being happy when she left. For insight into this, you can read what she wrote to BFF about the last time she saw OM back in June:

[color:"green"]We did his whole going-away ceremony, which was very sad (well, not for him). He gave a speech, but he didn't mention anybody in particular. I told him afterward that I was going to miss him, and he responded with "I'm going to miss a lot of people here" ... there were still a bunch of people around ... and then added, "I'll miss you, too." I gave him a card, but he refused to read it until after he went home. I asked if I could say a formal goodbye to him before he left the office, but he said if I was going to the thing at the bar I could just do it there. So I was getting frustrated and upset that he wouldn't accept a proper goodbye from me, or give me one for that matter. After so many years, I just wanted things to end appropriately. And they really didn't. Maybe that's why I feel so empty, because nothing got resolved and now I fear they never will.

So I ended up going to the gathering at the bar. I actually considered not going because I figured OM would probably ignore me ... he had been acting like it didn't make a difference whether I made it there or not. (I would ask if he didn't care whether I came or not, and his response would only be "I wouldn't say I don't care ..." and then just trail off.) But since I am trying to show him that I still want to be friends, I sucked it up and went.

It was fun at first since it was a chance to hang out with a bunch of people from work and talk and vent about stuff. But then I started to notice that OM was constantly avoiding me ... whenever I got within a couple of feet of him, he would pick up and walk off somewhere else within 30 seconds. And if he did talk to me, the only thing he would say is, "How's it going?" which is pretty much the only thing he's voluntarily said to me the past few weeks. Anyway, it was an exact repeat of his behavior at his party (and we know what result that had), so I started to get pissed off about this happening again.

I told him point-blank a couple of times that he was avoiding me, and he just kept saying that he wasn't. And he had plenty to talk about with everyone else there, but had nothing to say to me at all and (obviously) never came to talk to me. I wanted to leave, but I was afraid to try and get him to come say goodbye to me since I didn't want him to refuse in front of everyone. Also, I had to wait until I was sober enough to drive because I really didn't want to have to make BHHFSGuy come there to get me.

So then the gathering finally starts dying out, and somehow as everyone's leaving and using the restroom and whatnot, we end up standing outside the bar all by ourselves. He asks me if I'm going to be able to get home all right, and I said something like "What choice do I have?" and he said I could get BHHFSGuy to come down and I said I didn't want him to come here. Then I realize that OM is completely avoiding looking at me ... I was standing right in front of him, but he had turned his head completely to the right and was staring at the ground and not saying anything. So I ask him what's wrong, and he says nothing's wrong. I ask him if there's something he's not telling me, and he says there's not. So I ask him why he is not looking at me, and he doesn't really answer. So I actually order him to look at me, and he only manages to look me in the eye for a second or two and then goes back to the full head-turning thing. So I ask him again why he won't look at me, and he finally says, "I'm really drunk right now," and I say that I know, but what does that have to do with it? Then he says he needs to use the restroom and bolts back inside the bar and leaves me standing there alone outside.

At this point I just lose my temper over having him run away from me for like the 10th time that night so, stupidly, I go back inside to intercept him when he leaves the restroom. I tell him I want to talk to him, and he says "About what?" and just keeps walking. I ask him what's going on here, and he says nothing and still keeps walking. I try to catch his arm to make him stop and listen to me, but he just pulls it away and heads out the door. So then it's just me, OM and CO-WORKER who used to be my boss (she was giving him a ride home to OTHER CITY since she lives up there, too) standing out on the sidewalk. I am just so angry and hurt at that moment that all I do is just stare at Ryan and say nothing ... I noticed that CO-WORKER was uneasily watching the two of us, but I really didn't care at that point. Finally, he steps over to me and puts out his arms for a hug, and I let him. We hang on pretty closely and probably a little too long considering there's a witness standing there ... it was a lot like the hug we had at my house all those months ago (God, remember when THAT was my biggest problem?). We didn't say anything at all, and then we let go and walked off to our cars.

So after all these years and everything we've been through, that's how it ends: with a horrible scene at a bar, and nothing gets said or admitted or resolved. It's like the complete opposite of how I wanted things to be, and I'm just so hurt that it didn't seem important to OM that we have a goodbye or any sort of closure for this part of our relationship ... so then I start wondering if I wasn't that important a person to him after all. Because telling him goodbye the right way was a big deal to me because he had been such an important person to me at work, and then it had carried over into my personal life. And then he spends his farewell party completely ignoring me, which I now realize is what he always does when we are at these social gathering type of events with a lot of people. And then he just spent all this time huddled up with EX-COWORKER, and since it's now been established that marriage doesn't really get in the way of him making a move, I'm back to my [censored] feelings about those two all over again. Then it just gets all topped off by me completely ruining the one moment I had alone with him by flipping out over his behavior.

For things to have ended this way just absolutely devastates me, to the point where I'm just numb and don't want to deal with it or feel anything anymore ... I thought I would cry over him leaving and then over how things turned out, but I haven't. I've just felt empty. I can't get it out of my head how he wouldn't look at me and how he pulled his arm away from me ... those things have really disturbed me, especially since I don't know what they mean ... if he hates me or never wants to see me again or what.

After I drove home from the bar, I just felt so awful about how things ended (although it was totally his fault as well, if not more so), so I ended up calling him from the car after I parked ... I just wanted to leave a message, because I knew he wouldn't answer his phone. So it was basically a pathetic drunk-dial moment in which I went off like Pam from "The Office" ... all this stuff about how it was so hard for me that he was leaving, and that he meant the world to me and he could still tell me anything and that I missed talking to him about stuff, and how my feelings for him were the same now as they were four weeks ago, and that he could call or write me anytime and I would be waiting to hear from him. He did not return my call, but I didn't expect him to.

Now I have to see if he'll still follow through on his deal to come down here to take me to lunch in a few weeks. I'm starting to think that he's right ... that we need some distance. It's been almost a relief to not have him in the office today ... I can actually concentrate on my work some more and am no longer in a panic about trying to spend time with him before he leaves since that deed is done now. So I'm not going to try to contact him for a while ... and hopefully, if he cares, he'll be the one to get back in touch first.

I'm now trying to console myself about our last moments together, telling myself that he probably wouldn't have responded to anything I had to say because he was so wasted and shut down at that point and that it was good that I didn't open up to him then because he could have responded horribly and hurt me even more. He has the card I wrote him, and the sad phone message. He can't say he doesn't know how I feel. And he did give me a hug (despite his BHHFSGuy paranoia), so there was one brief moment where things were nice. And if I believe that we will be friends after this, then I shouldn't act like this was our final farewell, it was just bye for now. So maybe I'm making too big a deal out of it. But I'm not feeling much better ... those things probably are true, but the actual reality is that our last time together for a while turned out terribly, and now I'm afraid that he's using that experience as part of thinking things over right now and will be coming to the decision that it's just too difficult to try to continue being friends with all that's happened over the past month and we should just end it all. And then I'll never truly know how he felt about me. [/color]

So I returned to our home late Saturday night and it was devoid of WW, cat and about 1/4 of our stuff. She left her key in an envelope under the mat and wrote "You'll see I didn't pack up as much as planned... I'll explain later. (Heart)-WW." I had to get up early for a Sunday morning event and I was exhausted from the day so I just went to sleep. The weekend of work events finally ended at about 12:30 p.m. Sunday and then I headed to a local theatre production to see one of my friends who had the starring role. He asked how I was doing and I let him know WW had moved out yesterday. He offered to meet me for drinks sometime soon. After that, the landlord dropped by the apartment with his daughter to take pictures they could put up on a Craigslist posting. I've told him I'd be fully moved out by the end of October.

So far I haven't heard anything from WW and, to be honest, I'm quite happy about that. I have been dreading hearing from her. I've been thinking all this last week about Plan A vs. Plan B after WW moves out and although I was leaning towards the A/B Hybrid, B Lite, 180 approach, I was having more and more trouble with putting Plan A effort in as the days progressed. And after I left Saturday morning I didn't want to talk to her anymore. It is painful for me to do so. So let me respond to MrWondering's note of "A few more weeks in Plan A (presuming you can handle it) would be OK as far as I'm concerned" by noting that I don't think I can handle it. I know that she'll want to talk to me and I simply don't want to. Also, WW's reasons for moving away have included 'I just want to see if I can get along on my own, since I missed that opportunity' and 'I want to see if maybe I'll miss you' and the IC's structured separation plan stipulated NC between spouses (and OM), so there's no good reason for her and I to be in touch on the basis of her 'goals.'

I know I will need to revise my Plan B letter one more time and get it sent (though I have no address yet). More troubling to me, though, is that I seem to have lost the energy and will to even want her to turn around. Right now I don't want to send the PBL I've got because it says "I continue to love you right up to this day" and I don't honestly believe that right now. Right now I feel like I just want to move on. I mean, when numerous posters on the Marriage BUILDERS web site (as well as Dr. Harley) are waving warning flags, I have to take it seriously. And now that she's moved away and I'm moving out, I don't see even a basic path back to a successful marriage. I think I'm more scared of a failed recovery attempt than I am of D. After months of guarding my emotions, they seem to be stuck there and I can't put myself back out there to be vulnerable to future hurt. I won't do anything rash, however, knowing that emotions change from day to day.

My god, your WW is psycho (and completely egocentric). Maybe OM wanted nothing to do with you because he knew he got caught with you, and didn't want to be with you. Duh!

On a side note, just hang in there B-guy, you'll get through this and be just fine. I think your WW is headed for a big crash very soon. Even if she doesn't come back to you when it happens, getting a D from this egocentric woman might not be so bad afterall.

Bguy,

My advice on the up/down emotions your feeling is to set up a timeline for what your going to do. If you set up that timeline, your emotions should be a little more stable. So, pick a date for your plan B letter, pick a date for when you will end plan B if she does not return, pick a date when you will start plan D, etc.

As for fear of attempting recovery and it failing, here's the way I look at it. There's really no failing at at attempting recovery. There's false recoveries, but that's not the same thing. MB is not about staying M'd no matter what. And its not a coping mechanism, i.e. if we follow these principles, we'll be able to put up with each other in a loveless M. Its about adopting behaviors that create the best possible M environment for loving feelings to flourish. IMHO, success is not defined by whether those feelings flourish, its defined by whether that environment was created. KWIM.

Reading your WW's e-mail, it strikes me that she is not being authentic with anyone. Not you, not BFF, not even OM. With all these people, she's saying and doing whatever she thinks she has to do to get what she wants. Its never going to happen, because she is chasing a fantasy. Keep that in mind for your interactions up till plan B.

BHHF,

As a way to realign yourself to your own goals...it was helpful to me to break my acting from emotions (taking them as direction) by acting from my beliefs.

Finally set me apart from my WH at the time...because that's what I'd been doing all along. Didn't do what I didn't feel like and did do, like your WW, whatever I "felt" like...

You may not feel love...difference is...you KNOW you love...your choice...you know differently. You're not in a fog...and you understand that what hurts the most about her choices is that she doesn't "feel" for you right now.

Feelings don't keep us safe, are lousy to take directions for our lives from--they truly are information for us, to us, from our beliefs.

Check your belief...understand your choices...so that the Plan B letter is authentic...and you take the action, not dependent on HER choices...separate and equal to your own.

Hold yourself to your plan...hold yourself accountable, so you can look yourself in the eye down the road...no matter the outcome...and live a thriving life, 'k?

LA

BG,

Good luck to you. Your WW sounds a bit psycho in that letter. It may be best for you to grieve this one and chalk it up to luck that you don't have kids. That email of hers is very insightful about how broken she is inside.

The man obviously wanted nothing more to do with her, but she couldn't grasp that.

I know how you feel. It does get better with separation and lack of contact. You'll feel a tiny bit better each day.

Feel free to write if you need to vent.