B-Guy,

Part of plan B is you detaching yourself from her and preparing to move on with your life if she fails to agree to your PBL conditions. Don't read her call log. You shouldn't care less what she is doing while your are in plan B. It will be that much more theraputic and you will be much better equipped to move forward if you stop hanging on to her every action.

Plan B is really quite brilliant because it changed my attitude considerably. After WW moved out, I was quite angry. You might recall that I was reconsidering even entering into Plan B because I was too upset I didn't think I could even try and reconcile. But two months into it and most of that anger was gone. I was remembering good things instead of bad. When I was doing Christmas arranging, I found a photo of the two of us where we looked really happy together. I actually felt like sending the photo to her as a Christmas present. I held back, though, recognizing that my gesture would probably be seen as some kind of manipulation by either WW, BFF or ILs. So I stuck to NC and just stayed slightly curious about how WW was handling the holidays.

I took a few days off work around Christmas/New Year's and flew up to OR to stay with my parents and brother for about 12 days. Although I was looking forward to it, I was also a little concerned because it's WW's and BFF's hometown (their families still live there) and was worried I might see either one of them through no effort of my own. Thankfully my fears did not go realized and I didn't see anyone that made me uncomfortable. Well, just prior to catching my flight I bumped into one of WW's former coworkers, who knows me from some of her former workplace's get-togethers (I even attended her graduation party). She cheerfully said Hi and that I should be sure and tell WW that she had received WW's Christmas card. I told her I wouldn't be able to do that because WW left without me and we were no longer in contact with one another. She seemed surprised and unsure of what to say, but left with a 'Take care of yourself.' The encounter was less stressful to me than the last one I had with a former coworker of WW's.

I had the opportunity to visit some old high school and college friends while I was visiting the hometown and I greatly enjoyed it. I had not seen my old HS friends in 5+ years, so it felt great to hang out with them again. Plus, they clearly didn't like BFF even before I shared my story with them, so it felt nice to have some support there. I tried to clear up any misconceptions (one friend had heard that WW had promised to work things out if only I would move with her to her new location... Um, no)

I got an e-mail postcard from BFF on Christmas Eve that turned out to be intended for WW. It went to our shared e-mail account that I don't even know if WW still accesses:

[color:"red"]Merry Christmas Sweetie! I hope your Christmas Eve is full of good cheer and not too much work. I hope you don't have to work too late. I'm super jealous that you get a white Christmas...our's has been dreary rain and tepid weather. ... We are really excited to see you later this week. Just let me know what will work best, since I don't want to get in the way of family gatherings...although I adore your family. ... I miss you terribly, but I know that I'll see you in a few days and we can have a delayed Christmas celebration then. Take care of yourself. I know that you're going to have a great holiday...it'll be like Christmas all week long for you! Love ya sweetie! [/color]

Knowing WW was still working far away in snowy Lost Wages, CA, instead of home with her family just a few minutes away from me left me at ease to continue to enjoy the Christmas vacation, which I did thoroughly.

And now the first of the year has come and gone and I'm back in my apartment here in central CA...

I don't want to have to respond to any legal initiations by WW in her new county. And the only way I can prevent that is to initiate myself before she has the 90-day residency. So on Friday I talked to the attorney about moving forward and "getting this taken care of" in her words. I'll be meeting with her next Wednesday. I definitely didn't feel happy about making that decision. But I thought about it a lot before I came to that decision and didn't come to it lightly. Although it's possible that waiting another 15 months might change WW's mind, I don't know if it's worth waiting that long.

And, of course, there's always the possibility that WW will change her mind about things after she's been served with papers. I certainly wonder what WW is thinking, but it's probably best I don't know because it would probably just bother me if she was either happy or sad.

Hi, BHHFSGuy,

Sounds like you are resolving issues for yourself. I think your WW is making a huge mistake, and I really think one day she will regret it if she doesn't change course now...

Anyway, just wanted to let you know I'm pulling for you...

Hey guy....you said central Ca is where you live? are you on the coast? I am near monterey. I would like to get an MB get together going for Ca residents and Oregon and Wa people if ya'll want to drive. I am actually driving down to see L.A. Sunshine girl this weekend. Let me know if that interests you. Hope your doing well today. Keep strong.

SIHW

Thanks, SIHW, I think a MB get-together would be neat. I'm not near the coast (am actually in the central valley) but don't mind doing some driving. Well, I wouldn't want to drive all the way to L.A.... But tell LAsunshinegirl Hi from me and that I'm rooting for her. If you want to work out details, just e-mail me.

You have mail guy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

On Tuesday I found out via SIL1's blog that WW did visit her family's home in our shared hometown a few days after Christmas. What actually upset me, however, was that BFF and BFFH also came over and visited with the whole family. SIL1, SIL2 and SMIL were all so appalled when I first told them of BFF's involvement, and now they're celebrating the holidays with her and her husband? SMIL says how great of a husband I am and then never calls me back again? Where is the justice in this world? That's a rhetorical question, BTW. I realize it was not good for me to have seen that, so I've taken her blog out of my feeds.

On Wednesday afternoon I met with my attorney and it went really well. I brought her up to speed with what all had happened since I first met with her in October. I explained how I had sent a letter to WW detailing that I was open to working on the marriage but only if she would agree to end all contact with OM for life and commit to a program of marital recovery.

She had a number of questions, some of which I couldn't answer because they were 'so what is WW/WW's family thinking?' For instance:

"I take it WW is totally in agreement about getting a D at this point?" No. "She doesn't want a D?" Not as far as I know. "Usually moving out is a pretty big sign that somebody's not interested in staying married."

"I think it's also entirely possible she would probably be happy just to stay married to you and not see you for the next five years. And then at some point when she finds somebody else, then deal with this. I think she may be very comfortable with all this." Yeah, but I'm not.

"Is it possible she's hesitating to end the marriage because of her family? Would they be on her case about getting a divorce? Are they very traditional people?" I don't think so.

The lawyer took some information from me about what WW looks like, so it was kind of like a 'How well do you know your W pop quiz' "What color are her eyes, what's her height, etc." This was so that the process server could identify her. Since I don't know where WW lives, I provided her new work location and the plan is for her to be served with the court petition prior to the 19th (WW's 90-day residency period). I am scheduled to go back to the lawyer's office Friday morning to sign the petition and provide a photo of WW for the process server to use for identification.

I had made arrangements in advance to go to dinner that night with a couple of my coworkers/support group, one of whom is my Intermediary. So I brought them both up to speed on it. Later that night my M called and we discussed things. You'd think maybe with all the talk on Wednesday it would've been pretty draining, but I actually felt fine.

And then the very next day WW made contact with my Intermediary... (see next post)

Intermediary called me into her office after I got back from lunch today to say that WW had e-mailed her and asked about sending me a letter in response to my PBL. The questions WW asked were apparently whether or not Intermediary would read it and whether WW could be assured that I would read it.

We had a lengthy discussion, but I assured Intermediary that she should read any letter that WW sends and only pass on to me the relevant information. Thus, she should not assure WW that I'll read it, because I won't.

Intermediary was a bit worried because she figured WW would probably write it differently knowing that Intermediary would be reading it. I assured her that's not really important because there's nothing WW should be saying to me that Intermediary shouldn't be able to read. Either WW agrees to the conditions or she doesn't. Anything else is pointless.

Based on some of the other threads here, I'm expecting that WW's letter will either be a bunch of fog-babble like 'I'm sorry things had to be this way but it's so important for me to be true to myself' or a fishing expedition like 'I'm still thinking about you and hope you'd be willing to talk with me soon'

Can any Plan B experts advise me on the best course of action? I'm thinking that unless WW's upcoming letter says she's willing to meet the necessary requirements that my Intermediary is just supposed to re-send the PBL or just the portion of it detailing how I will not be in contact with her until those things happen.

I'm still planning on meeting my appt. tomorrow with the attorney to sign the petition. Some timing, eh?

Wow, that's some development... I wonder if your wife understands how close to losing you she actually is...

I'm not a plan B expert, but shouldn't your intermediary tell your WW that they will read the letter and unless it is a letter stating that she agrees to the terms of your PBL, then she isn't going to pass it along?

I agree with your assessment that it is probably a "so sorry it didn't work out", or a "can't we start talking again."

You know, I've followed your story, and I'm not trying to get you to change your mind about things, but I think I'd be remiss if I did not say, isn't all this going awfully fast? Is that what you want? I understand your point about the residency, but have you explored other options to protect yourself and prolong plan B?

Whatever reason your WW has for wanting to send you a letter, it still implies to me that she has not even fully internalized your offer, which was give things a shot or I'll have nothing to do with you. She wants something from you and it appears she may still think there is a way she can get that without agreeing to your terms. Until she faces that reality, you really don't know her decision.

I worry that the D filing will make the decision for her. Which is fine, as long as that is really what you want.

Sorry, if you didn't want to hear that, but I'd hate to see you make a choice you don't want due to legal considerations as opposed to what you want to do.

I keep seeing people post that you are doing well, which I agree with, I just haven't seen a lot of people question the timing. In my observations here, Plan B's have often been longer than 90 days.

I guess I agree with rprynne, although I'm certainly no expert either. But Plan B's go on in terms of a year or two years, don't they? I know you've said you wouldn't want to wait for five years, but would you wait for one year?

Going forward with a divorce when you may not really want one... well, the timing is just bad for you, isn't it?

You can use a short note to renew your plan B letter.

"Dear W,
____________ contacted me about your letter. I just wanted to tell you my position again.

I'ts not that I don't love you, because I still do. It's not that I don't want to see you, or hear from you, because I do. It's just that I love you, and it hurts to much to have contact with you when you are not willing to commit to N/C with OM.

If you ARE ready to promise N/C, then let _________ know, and I will be contacted. If not, please let me alone, it hurts to much to hear from you, knowing I can't have you to myself.

Love BHHFSGuy"


Now, you would have to put it in your own words, but that is the general idea. Remember......... keep it short.

SS

I saw my attorney at the arranged 11 a.m. meeting this morning to review and sign the petition of dissolution to be filed with the court. I provided her with WW's workplace address and a photo of WW so the process server out in Lost Wages, CA, could find and identify WW. I confirmed with her that I could put a hold on the process of dissolution at any time in case WW contacted my Intermediary and agreed to meet my Plan B Letter requests.

Then this afternoon my Intermediary received WW's letter... (see next post)

My Intermediary came to me this afternoon and said she had received the previously alluded to letter from WW. That didn't surprise me. She felt that it met the requirements of my PBL. That did surprise me. But she said there was still hesitation on WW's part, especially regarding Dr. Harley. I asked Intermediary to go ahead and provide me with the full letter and here it is:

[color:"green"]Dear BHHFSGuy,

I wanted you to know that my time here has been spent on becoming a better and happier person. It's taken me so long to respond because getting your letter and learning that I was being cut off from you hurt a great deal, and it left me very uncertain of what I should do. So I have been thinking things over constantly.

But I finally decided that I should let you know a couple of things in response to your letter. First, I have not been in contact with OM since my last day at work. I stopped calling him in early September ... which I thought you knew already. Then I wrote him on my last day to inform him I was not going to be at The Record anymore, and that has been it.

Second, I decided to start seeing a marriage therapist, since there is a lot I still need to work through, and I realized that I do need help doing it. I have been in therapy for almost a month now, and it has been very helpful so far.

So I am trying ... it's just proven to be a slow process.

In regards to the program of recovery: I can only assume you would want it to be a Dr. Harley program, and I have to admit I would be quite fearful of that. I understand that you regard his work highly, but my perception has been different. The steps you took with me that I recall from his books left me feeling deeply humiliated, hurt and hating myself. I know you followed these steps and plans in order to try to save our marriage, but it felt like there was a focus on punishment and shame in these methods. Those are my feelings and emotions about it, and I can't help having them. So I hope there could be the possibility of an alternative route.

I want to say again that I do not consider my move out here to be the end of everything. And I know I have made a lot of mistakes, and I am trying to address those right now. Although I hope for a response, I'm not expecting one. I just had to let you know these things. I hope you're doing all right ... I think and wonder about you all the time.

Love,
WW[/color]

I have asked Intermediary not to write anything back to WW just yet until I can get some opinions here. But I have called my attorney and asked her to put the dissolution petition on hold.

I'm surprised and heartened by this letter. But also wary because of her hesitance to engage with "a Dr. Harley program." What convinced me to send the PBL and not just end things at that point was the thought that the "program of marital recovery" would be for her to call the Harleys and get a plan started. So I don't know exactly what to do at this point. I'm leaning towards requesting she call the Harleys anyway for at least one session and see what she thinks. Advice would be welcomed.

Bguy:

I think this is great news! It's good that you have some evidence for positive motion on her part in the form of her letter, and it's good you decided 2 put the dissolution on hold for now.

I don't see any reason 2 rush anything, but I think it would make sense 2 reply 2 her letter and thank her for the steps she's taken.

Perhaps without appearing demanding, you could assure her that a phone call would be very non-threatening, compared 2 an in-person session with a counselor (and most ICs seem 2 want 2 talk 2 the other spouse at least once 2 get their perspective). I would bet that the Harleys could do a very good job of not scaring her away, particularly during the first session.

You might want 2 work with Jennifer, as I've heard people say that some women can feel more at ease with another woman for a coach.

-ol' 2long

It seems that people have a hard time locating marriage counselors who are actually helpful for the marriage. I often recommend the Harleys for the simple reason that you know that they will be supportive in strengthening your marriage from the very first appointment. I know I saw a reference to a list compilation of MB knowledgeable counselors, perhaps there is one listed for your area. Another possibility is to post a call out thread for recommended marriage counselors in your area, in case someone here has already scouted out and found one near to you.

I'm not sure what your wife is referencing, but it is probably the exposure I assume you did. That would explain her opinion that the MB methods focus on shame and punishment.

My first thought is to not discount her feelings. Her feelings are her feelings and it's usually not a successful expedition to convince her otherwise.

My second thought (and you would have to be the one to determine if this was true or not in your situation) would be to tell her that the sense of punishment or shame might have been from your attempt to implement the MB methods during a very discombobulating time (if this is true).

There is nothing I have read from the Harleys or about the Harleys that indicate that there is any focus on punishment and shame.

Perhaps you could call the Harleys yourself for a consult in order to put together a personalized game plan to woo your wife into counseling together with you on the next appointment.

BHHFS, I would not respond and I would not put the dissolution on hold until you talk to Steve Harley. Call him up and ask him what your next move should be. He will set you on the right path. It will be money well spent. Steve is very good at bringing a reluctant wayward into the fold and will tell you what to say to her.

Here is a post from another lady who was counseled by Steve about reconciliation:

"The steps you took with me that I recall from his books left me feeling deeply humiliated, hurt and hating myself."

Actually it was her INFIDELITY that left her feeling deeply humiliated, hurt and hating herself.

But, I would do as Melody says and talk to the Harleys. And remember, often the WS stays foggy for awhile. It took my ex 7 months to be himself again.

Hang in there, and good luck.

Hold off on the filing if it's not to late. I would talk to SH and see what he says about the letter. This may be the sign that you were looking for. The holidays are always difficult for the WS. I wish you the best of luck. As far as the marital recovery, I would tell her that you understand how she feels about the shame she feels about the MB system, but just to give it a try and see if it is something that she could do, if not you can use the POJA to take you down your path of marital recovery.

I had my phone session with Steve this morning and found it to be very worthwhile.

He noted that WW had met the requirements of my PBL and it's fair for her to ask about an alternative route than Marriage Builders. He recommended that I reach out and engage her to start a dialogue. Take it one step at a time. First, just establish an ideal scenario that we can agree on (i.e. a great marriage). Once we agree on the goal, we can begin to investigate and discuss the possible strategies. At that point, use respectful persuasion.

When I told him the reasons WW had given as to why she didn't want to follow 'a Dr. Harley program,' he said that she hasn't quite developed a complete enough understanding of what happened. And until then, it's going to be more about how it affected her than how it affected me. "That's just the way it works."

He said because WW is no longer in contact with OM, Plan B needs to be reconsidered, because it will look too controlling. And that I should no longer use my Intermediary. If I make it seem WW has to come crawling back, she won't.

He thought the timing of her letter was a bit suspicious, but that it made some sense she would wait until after the new year began. And regardless of the suspicion that she was still reaching out and I should not turn that down.

He recommended I not delay in responding to her, but also not to flood or overwhelm her with contact.

With all that in mind, I sent the following message from my personal e-mail account to hers:

[color:"blue"]Dear WW,

Thank you for your letter, which I did read. Because you are no longer contacting OM, there is no longer a need for Intermediary to be a go-between for communications.

I was very moved by your recent letter and impressed with the steps you've taken to help yourself. I would very much like for us to move forward, but first be in agreement as to our goal. I think we have to figure out what destination we'd like to reach before we can take any steps toward that. My ideal scenario is for you to be in love with your first husband.

If you can agree with that scenario, let me know. Then we can begin researching the options of how to go about arriving at that destination. I think we will need assistance with making the journey, because it may seem impossible for us to see the way there. But I don't want us to follow any program that's going to get in the way of us being happy together, so we should investigate the possibilities and come to an agreement.

I've missed you and I've been thinking about you a lot. I'm hopeful we can agree that we have something special and would like to turn it into something great.

Love,
BHHFSGuy [/color]

Steve added that the forum is a great community and he was glad I was taking advantage of it. He is also the first person to ask me what my username stands for. I think a prize is in order for anyone who can figure it out.