Hey Ani,

I am in plan B too and do still communicate with my WH once or twice a day via e-mail and occasional TM. This is only in regard to the children or other financial matters.

Like SDG said, it really is difficult to not communicate directly with your spouse when you share small children and are not yet divorced.

But I also agree that it's best to keep the e-mails polite, to the point, and extremely short if you can.

If your WH attempts to engage in too much small talk which you find hurtful or annoying to read, then definitely use an intermediary if you feel you need to. Just have them send the salient points of his messages which you can respond to directly.

It has been 2 weeks now without any visual or voice contact between me and my WH. It was very difficult for the first few days, but each day it gets easier and now it almost feels routine.

Mini T/J here:

SDG-

Thanks for outlining the benefits of Plan B...I was thinking of asking that very question in a new post but you answered it quite nicely.

What Steve Harley told me personally was that on this board we are to stick to the principles. The only variations should happen IF A PERSON IS UNDER THE COACHING OF THE HARLEYS. So, Ani, if STEVE tells you personally to abandon Plan B and continue contact with your H, then that is what you should do. But folks here shouldn't tell you to CUT CORNERS because they are being COACHED and GUIDED by a trained counselor to do so in their own cases. We are not trained counselors here who have that kind of latitude and are qualified to tell you to cut corners. The HARLEYS ARE.

Just so you know, y'all, the Harleys have historically recommended complete darkness when it comes to Plan B. That is the point of the intermediary and the entire point of Plan B. That seems to be lost in this situation and the contact just grows and grows. First there was an inch, now there is a mile. Ani IS counseling with Steve and he told her that she could go to sports games her H attends. That has grown now to frequent phone contacts, completely defeating the purpose of Plan B after she has told him she will be in no contact at all. Steve NEVER told her to abandon plan B and begin engaging her H over anything and everything. Her H contacts her at will. This is not Plan B.

Lots and lots of folks have done just fine with even very small children. They do it every day. Minor contact in Plan B almost always turns into major contact as it has here with Ani. There is now no semblance of Plan B whatsoever. This is the cold shoulder program.

But, Ani, you are free to abandon Plan B all you want, I just want others to know that it only defeats the purpose, keeps the BS enmeshed in the drama and almost always leads to MORE and more contact, as it has here.

Well I'm not sure what to say. I know I want to restore my marriage and communicate very little with my H. I'm communicating as much as it may appear. I have begun to stop wondering what he is doing all the time and began concentrating on me. I know my plan b can be darker. I am trying. I want to thank everyone who posted. I do listen to each and everyone. If anyone else has any suggestions or comments I would like to hear from you.

Thanks for all the advice. I feel really confused now. Not sure what to do with all this info. Trying my best at plan B. I guess I'm just not as strong as I should be. Yes, I get a fix as well when I talk to WH. We do not really fight so our conversations are usually somewhat pleasant. Anyway, think I'm going to schedule with Steve to go over the plan and get his advice on my persoanl situation. WH counseled with Steve before as well so that might help in Steve coming up with a plan specific for us.

Ani, can I suggest that if you are going to break Plan B to do it at the guidance of Steve Harley? I can't help you in a plan that I don't think will work. If you want to cut corners, I would do with Steve's guidance.

I agree with Melody. I did plan B without the help of the professionals, but I hunkered down and got dark. It did take me a couple of months before I stopped breaking my Plan B. If I had initially gone dark, it probably would have had more impact. I don't yet know of anyone who did a PERFECT plan B, but I do know of those that have done EXCELLENT ones, including Mimi, LilSis, Bugsmom, as well as Chrisner.

I did enter recovery with the help of the Harleys (Jennifer to be exact) and would recommend that, if you can, you get their help now. You need to do this RIGHT, Ani, if it's to be really effective.

I don't want to cut corners. I want to do Plan B and do it the best I can. I'm not calling him to have him tell me to give up on Plan B. I guess I'm just looking for clarification on the emailing. I really don't have a good person for an intermediary. I had my friend contact my H and return her call and he didn't. She was going to tell him to have contact go through her. He is very defiant when it comes to having an intermediary. He says we should be able to discuss our children without the help of a third party. He seems to think an intermediary is childish, that as parents we should put aside us and focus on the kids when we have to.

Ani, your H is not supposed to approve of plan B. You don't his approval. He is a wayward, and if he DID like it, that would indicate there is something WRONG. It does not matter if he thinks it is "childish." His outlook is WARPED and self serving.

He wants to keep you under his control so naturally he will object to Plan B because he loses control.

I wasn't aware that you were breaking Plan B in order to appease your wayward H, but doing so is not a good idea. Your WH got your marriage into this mess, he can't get you out. But MARRIAGE BUILDERS principles CAN.

Yes, you do have a good person for an intermediary.

The purpose of the intermediary is so that you can avoid ALL CONTACT. If you think Plan B is childish, then don't do it, though. You are free to do anything you want.

I don't think it is childish. I know why I need an intermediary. He doesn't..that's why he thinks it's childish. Mel- I value your opinions. I learn a lot from you. I can tell you're getting frustrated with me. Trust me. I am not communicating with him that much. When I make some comments it is usually something he has said in the past not a recent conversation. I know the darker I am the more effective it is.

Is the problem that you don't believe you can go into Plan B because he refuses to use your intermediary?

See, the goal here is not to be "darker" but completely DARK. That is the point of the intermediary.

Ani, no communication at all, directly through you, is the only answer. He wants to control the sitch, and you are letting him. You don't HAVE to answer the phone, you CHOOSE to.

You WH is not the obstacle to your Plan B, YOU ARE. You don't have to talk to him. None of what you are discussing is emergent. It's all daily grind, day in day out stuff.

Ani, you are hindering things, not your WH. This is YOUR PLAN, not his. You need to detach and do this for yourself, NOT HIM. If you are not ready, then so be it, but you will just get much of the same wayward crap from him. Nothing will change until you change it. You can only control yourself, and allow yourself to be controlled.

Just set up the intermediary, and go dark. Don't answer the phone, any emails auto forward to intermediary. He can jump and scream as much as he wants and you won't hear it.

It's up to you, Ani.

Stop making excuses for the contact and pick a plan. Hearing anything from you about pleasant conversations is not anywhere near plan B.

Ani, when I entered Plan B, I was scheming on any way I could find to HAVE to contact my WH, and I found really great FLIMSY excuses, and set myself back each time. I initially failed the Plan. My fixes set me back, and they bolstered his waywardness.

You have a choice to perpetuate this sitch as it is now, and then smoothly move toward divorce and co-parenting, or really make every effort to save your marriage. It's up to you, NOT YOUR WH.

Perfect advice, SL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Plan B would be easier with an intermediary no doubt. I'm finding it hard to get that in place. Perhaps my sister would be better. Maybe he doesn't want to discuss our personal stuff with my girlfriend. I don't know..just guessing. I have an appt with the Harleys Thursday. Maybe that will help me as well. I think part of the problem is if he feels like we're not getting along (not talking) then he's said before it's easier for him not to care. When we are getting along he cares more about what he has been doing. I don't know if that makes since but I guess what it boils down to is if he's pissed at me he justify what he's doing when I'm nice to him it makes him feel guilty and bad for what he is doing.

I agree completely with this, and with what Mel and SL are telling you. Don't make any modifications to your plan without consulting Steve.

If you have an intermediary lined up, then you should use them. Yes, your WH will think that you are being childish, but why do you care what he thinks? He's a Fog-brained Alien.

Mel- To answer your question..Yes I'm finding it hard to do Plan B without H using my intermediary. What do I do? Reinforce that he needs to contact her regarding kids? Do I just avoid all contact so that he eventually has to use her? This is tough. He seems to be so stubborn about the intermediary. I assume it's because he's through with me and he thinks our marriage is over so why no talking. What's the point? I'm not sure why he is being so stubborn about it.

If you will stop giving into him he will HAVE to use your intermediary if he wants to get a message to you.

Thanks Mel...I just read Bugsmoms' thread. It was helpful to read that others go through the same stuff. I want to tell you that WS called about switching weekends with the boys. I never responded to his last email about the subject because he said he would take care of things. He was being sarcastic. But I never emailed back and responded so he called last night. Asked again about switching weekends. I said calmly, I would watch them Saturday night but you want to switch the whole weekend. I don't think that's necessary. Besides I said I have plans because you told me you will take care of it. He got so angry and said fine then I have the kids on Christmas Eve and Christmas day and I will bring them over later on Christmas day. I replied calmly if that is what you want to do, but the kids would like to be here Christmas morning. Then I said calmly..you are trying to bully me so I am going to hang up now. I thought we could make arrangements about the kids without help from an outsider but perhaps we need to get a temp custody order writteb up so that we don't have this problem anymore. Then I said goodbye.

After that conversation I realized why I need to be dark. He became angry because he couldn't get his way. Sounds like he has some other plans since he wants to have the whole weekend switched. Again, he's not being honest. Now he's mad at me when I offered to keep the boys for him Sat night until Sunday morning. That wasn't good enough. He didn't get his way...I'm messing up his plans..I'm the one wrong here. Now, he want's to punish me by taking the kids Christmas Eve and Christmas morning. You know what..I'm going to let him have them. I'm not going to talk about it again. He will feel guilty about what he's done. And he knows the kids want to be here, they told me already. I'm going to let it be.

Just had a job interview. Probably not my best interview given my circumstances. Anyway, I hope I get it. It will do wonders for me I think. Still thinking about last nights conversation and am quite upset. I can't believe WH would get mad at me because I won't switch weekends with him. I've never seen him use the kids before to get back at me. I guess I'm in shock. I always had hope that if our marriage did end that we could at least step up and be great co parents together. It seems now that if it doesn't go his way he can be difficult. I guess all the other times I'd step up for the kids sake and he always got what he wanted. I thought we were being good parents...but really he got what he wanted so he was happy. After last night I really don't know if this marriage can be saved. He is completely unreasonable and I don't want to have to deal with him. He showed a mean side that I have never seen before. Last time when he moved out eveything seemed fine...because I was in Plan A. This time he doesn't seem happy. He always looks tired. Kinda seems grunpy from what I can tell. He doesn't seem at all concerned about our limited talking. I really just don't think he's coming back.

This is what Plan B is supposed to protect you from. This is why you do it. You do not have “conversations” in Plan B.


WAYWARDS ARE NOT GOOD PARENTS!!!

WAYWARDS ARE NOT GOOD PARENTS!!!

WAYWARDS ARE NOT GOOD PARENTS!!!

Find an intermediary now.
Get into a real Plan B.
Protect yourself from his acid emissions.

Please do this today.

Ani, try not to do anything else until after you have consulted with Steve. Try to avoid talking to your WH, communicating with him, doing anything that will antagonize him. Your plan needs help, and Steve is the one who should help you with it.


You can't tell that right now because the only person you have access to is a Wayward Spouse. There is no point in reasoning with a WS. Who he is today is not necessarily who he will be tomorrow, but until he pulls his head out of his *****, all you can do is make it worse.

That's why you do Plan B. You preserve your willingness to reconcile. No conversations. What did it accomplish? It made him angry and it drained your love bank. It's what I meant by a trigger--some wayward behavior by him that makes you want to react.

Do you get the concept of your husband vs your wayward husband and how they are two different people?