I had to laugh, ML. They say God helps those who help themselves. You left more than 20 posts yesterday -- an average of nearly eleven posts a day for six and a half years -- So advice on how you're balancing your online time with personal time to help your marriage, or how the MB principles are helping you, would be interesting. Because I do not read much personal reflection here from you -- Only fingers pointing accusingly and maliciously at others.

Consistently, I read remarks on these threads that you have engaged in blame-finding, pettiness, and reviled others: namecalling, noise-making and the like -- rather childish behavior in the face of serious discussion. Many times you have led the charge in degrading other posters, and falsely accused people of ulterior motives, where none exist.

Misplaced compassion might give power to evil, but a life of no compassion at all is a worthless existence. ML, you have decided entire categories of people are undeserving of compassion -- and this is a dreadful mistake. I'm guessing that there are people in your own life who are cut out of that self-same compassion -- and I'm wondering if one of the people you include in that circle of loathing -- is YOU.

ML consider this -- "Compassion will cure more sins than condemnation." (Henry Ward Beecher)

ML, with such aggressive online pursuits, it would be a wonder if you could be expending much effort on face-to-face relationships with people in real life, no?

But how in the world does this little diversion serve to support your point that a marriage based on dishonesty is a "success?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> This is yet another diversion from the fact that you can't defend your assertions. It doesn't matter if I post 200 posts a day, SSB, it doesn't serve to support your stance. Nice try at diverting the subject, but it won't work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

SSB, I will repost my post which you are so frantically trying to avoid answering:

SSB, unfortunately, your idea of "success" is a marriage based on deceit and fraud, which is not a sign of "success" but a sign of waywardness. That IS for any thinking person "to say," and Dr. Harley does say that recovery is impossible under those conditions. So, you can "unabashably" consider dishonesty to be a "success" or even a dog fart if that makes you happy, but in reality, it is not a success in the view of anyone who is not WAYWARD or extremely dysfunctional. Calling dishonesty a "success" is simply more evidence of your waywardness and lack of recovery.

And just as a refresher, SSB, here are the quotes in question: [you went back and deleted most of them to hide the evidence - I don't blame you - but these were captured in the posts of responding disgusted board members]

Wow, ML -- It's about 2:30 AM where you are (I think), and you've already logged on SEVEN posts. Here you are, searching through the MB logs for old posts of MINE that don't even reflect where my marriage is any more, and out of context ... this is just sad, sad, sad.

ML, I am a believer in "Love thy neighbor" (within limits). So, I'm posting this link to An Internet Addiction and Recovery Test .

I honestly think that this might apply to you. Really, this is not about me. It's not about echo_echo.

It's about you, and your 7-10 posts a day on average, leading up to 26 or more lately ...

I don't know you, I don't know your life, and it's not my business ... I certainly and absolutely wish you well.

In other words, you can't defend your case. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Well, ML -- since I began writing this, you've changed your post twice -- you must be very, very bored and very, very lonely at this hour, and still trying hard to find someone to talk to at nearly THREE AM your time (even if it's someone you dearly wish you did not like).

*sigh*

So, I guess I've achieved check mate, when it comes to "my case."

I really do think you should take a look at that website.

Please.

It's The Internet Addiction Test

There are great things you could be achieving with all of this energy. YOu could even be turning this negative energy into something positive in your life.

You are a smart woman. It is entirely unnecessary to feel that you must deprive your life of compassion. Especially you should have compassion for yourself, ML. You should not be punishing yourself, so.

Whatever it is you think you are punishing yourself for ... find someone who can help you let it go, or make the most of it.

Please do revisit that website.

Warmly -- Sweet

You know SSB, if I were you I'd think long and hard before pointing your finger at all the HELPING OTHERS that MelodyLane has spent her time here doing in the last 6 years-Sheesh, how very HORRIBLE of her! *GASP* I should think that isn't the measuring stick that you'd want to use, but if you insist, let's look at what YOU have been doing in the last six years...I mean I'm sure that you've been worthy of wife and mother of the year all that time while BOINKING OM, right? I mean that is something to REALLY be PROUD of, huh? And the fact that your husband still remains CLUELESS today of who that faceless OM was-all because you are "PROTECTING" him from the TRUTH...Oh yeah, I can certainly see where you should be just bursting with PRIDE over your contributions to humanity...Seriously, do you even believe the hogwash you are spouting??? Recovered marriage...my [censored]...Gimme a break...I gotcha though, it IS pretty hard to defend the indefensible, so why not take pot shots at the good in others...Good plan there sweetie...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Well, still no defense, SSB. Just more cheesy diversion tactics that a 5th grader could see through.

Would you care to defend your own statements or are you going to continue to try to divert the subject?

Shall I repost them again?

Now, now, MrsW, while I was wasting time on this board helping others and learning, she was out doing "productive things" like boinking her OM and lying to her H. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I just sit here with my mouth agape that SSB is lecturing ML about compassion, all while still keeping her husband in the dark over who OM is...HOW VERY COMPASSIONATE OF HER!!! *slaps forehead* Seriously, THAT is your idea of compassion SSB??? Time to buy a clue my dear...

Mrs. W

SSB

You said


I guess it does depend what a person considers a successful recovery.

In my experience the failures to protect weaknesses that were in place before the affair must be addressed honestly and mutually so that the marriage is institutionally protected from being affected by infidelity again.

My studies of marriage building techniques and examples on these boards have show time and again that this is the only basis for a sustained recovery to take place.

Some FWS are delighted to have gotten away without bearing the worst consequences of their decision to have an affair, and consider this absence of consequence to be recovery.

Some BS are so fearful of losing their familiar lives that they accept the absence of their spouse in an active affair as being "recovery".

Some couples are so unprepared to address structural issues in their marriage that they settle for an artificial absence of conflict as being " recovery ".

Yet more folks are NEVER satisfied that they are recovered from an affair, whatever progress is made.

I have seen marriages in each of these situations crumble after period because they are not structurally sound recoveries.

Radical honesty from both spouses is an absolute building block of recovery. If the BS knows about the deceit it may take a lifetime of trustworthiness from the FWS to help their heart reheal to a point where they can trust again.

And something that perhaps, as a FWS, SSB you will not understand but the BS ALWAYS knows, deep down, that the full truth has not been told until it is fully revealed. Only when the most painful scrapings from the bottom of the humiliating truth barrel have been coughed up in pain by a repentant FWS is the "switch flicked" in the BS's heart that they are content they are no longer in the dark.

A good person here, who invested so much in recovery that she agreed to renew vows as part of it, ans since discovered devastatingly that the nagging doubt she had in the pit of her soul was right - and her FWH had never gained his "f" and in fact had a longer history of deceit than anyone knew.

Right now her life and M are upside down, but my experience shows that AT LAST she has a BETTER chance of a real recovery now than ever before.

You cannot build a sustainably satisfying marriage on lies.

And so to exposure.

Bringing the consequences of an affair to the door of an infidel is righteous AND vital if THEIR marriage is to stand a chance of recovery also.

Exposure in my own situation to OMS GF catalysed enormous upset in that family's life, and invoked threats of all kinds of evil consequences from my own dear Squid, but it cut away all the cancer from both my own and OMs relationships. My own marriages is now recovered to the level where we are honestly struggling with applying Dr Harley's proven tools to make our marriage more rewarding, but we are doing so on a firm foundation of full disclosure and radical honesty.

So SSB, I really hope you study and apply Dr Harleys concepts to your situation. Calling your H "Handsome Beefcake Babydaddy" in hysterical expressions of romance may please him for a short time like candy but will not satisfy him while there is the cancer of deceit at the very spine of your marriage.

Please recognise this, SSB, and refrain from advising others to follow your example of basing your recovery on lies. Your example has not changed my experience at all that no recovery without exposure is worth spit.

Post deleted by LadyLayla

Deceit is about control 100%.

Think about this ...

You know...a certain percentage of BSs DO commit suicide because the sudden SHOCK of the news that their life has crumbled before their eyes exceeds their ability to cope.

So we'll put that nil percentage [tiny beyond relevance...a person is more likely to die driving to the store but we do that everyday] into the given side of the equation.

Now compare it with a person who is told by their doctor that they have cancer.

Did you know that an even greater percentage of them will go into despair and commit suicide also?

So by that logic...because a person *might* have a defeatist attitude or fail to recover from the shock [and again want to remind you that the percentage is SO small that it can't be an expected reaction at all] they shouldn't be told they have cancer at all?

This removes the option of even TRYING to treat it.

So hows the outcome look for THAT?

You see an affair is a cancer in your life and in your husbands life.

It really DOES take two partners for an affair to occur which means that the BS has personal issues and relational issues to resolve in order for they themselves to be healthy, well, and whole...often that they require too LITTLE investment. If you look at the Harley method you can see that it leaves marriage partners as the primary [by a long shot] companion in ALL areas of life. It means that you just don't HAVE a few hours to slip away with an affair partner unaccounted for. You won't HAVE that recreation that doesn't involve them. You won't HAVE those intimate discussions with other people instead. I could go on and on. In order to really enjoy such togetherness people really have to stay right on top of their conflicts and actively work to build compatability. Then they CAN'T say...well we have grown apart, we have nothing in common, my feelings have changed. All of these things don't just fall out of a tree...human behavior is very predictable.

So suffice it to say that the BS has a very big cancer in their lives which HELPED CREATE the environment for terrible destruction and loss and they DON'T EVEN KNOW IT so they can't change their participation in it.

Part of the reason that they don't know is because conflict avoidance is a wayward trait. Sure all people avoid conflict to some degree but it is pretty much the calling card of the cheater. This leads to much deceit which corrupts the BSs perceptions of reality to protect the IB aka independent behavior which is a LOVEBUSTER and destructive abuse of a spouse. How can a person whose perception of reality is not accurate be described? How about crazy? Right? A person who believes what is not true about their life and the world and reality is crazy. So then...the WS says..well you know my spouse is CRAZY and can't HANDLE the truth...must be protected from the truth...the real agenda is to KEEP THEM CRAZY so that the WS does not have to endure the CONSEQUENCES of dealing with a PEER and an EQUAL who may make choices that the WS doesn't LIKE with all the autonomy and independence the WS has been claiming for their very own.

The deceit protects the conflict avoiding wayward from the FEELINGS of anger or the realities of loss etc which are a consequence of the actions and choices of the wayward. See the connection? The wayward does not want to be confronted with that CONFLICT that they have sidestepped so consistently by taking the BSs choices away from them.

That is the nature of cake eating...I'm going to have it BOTH ways and I am going to decide FOR you.

But that is terrible disrespect isn't it?

It is gross frank disrespect to have sex with someone elses spouse as if they don't exist or aren't relevant.

But in doing so you have likely gotten into the habit of assuming the right to make this BSs choices for her ...undestand that this behavior has warped YOUR perceptions as well.

In reality regardless of the outcome you just plain old don't have the *right* to take this womans choices away from her by withholding relevant information about her own life from her. It's unethical and self serving. More conflict avoidance. More sidestepping consequences. More blameshifting.

If you tell her and you lose your job or your status in the community as a result...you EARNED that result. It's yours. Avoiding that conflict by continuing to abuse someone you have already shown unwarranted contempt for is a manifestation of weak character...and weak characters don't have successes in life that they can't steal.

Saying "This is what I have done, I'm sorry I was very wrong, I'll take my consequences now" is a mark of self respect and self worth and maturity and personal ownership and I consider people who do this every bit my peer and a lot of them are close personal friends.

Facing the consequences in that way makes the affair and waywardness something you have done rather than WHO you are.

After all everyone has lied...but people who never turn away from that behavior and continue to use it to abuse people ARE liars. It's WHO they are. All of their behaviors and choices filter through that false entitlement and color their very personality. Remove that false entitlement and you have a completely different person.

So asking.."is it worth it to risk suicide?" is asking the WRONG QUESTION...addressing the wrong piece of the equation.

What that BS does with the information is outside of your control...trying to exert control there is disrespectful and puts you onto her "property" again.

You learn where your property ends and hers begins...where is the line between mine and not mine.

The CORRECT question is...how do I regain my integrity and self respect?

The answer to that is by being honest and accepting the consequences of your choices.

Things a little slow over on gloryb this morning? And we thought all the "hostility" had driven you off MB! **snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Excellent post, noodle. There is a saying in AA that addresses this: "you are only as sick as your secrets."

Unless an adulterer is COMPLETELY free of their adultery addiction I see no reason to believe anything they claim.

IMHO there are three adulterers in this situation: the OM, the other OW, and you (depending on how far you are along in withdrawal). You said, she said, he said... zero credibility IMHO. What does the OM's WIFE say?

Why should anyone believe what an adulterer claims as an excuse to keep the adultery secret from the betrayed spouse? And even if it were true, then why weren't the adulterers concerned enough about the betrayed spouse to prevent them from committing adultery in the first place?
We're supposed to believe she's JUST suicidal enough to kill herself if the adulterers tell her, but not suicidal enough to kill herself if she finds out in some other way? uh-huh...how convenient that her level of suicide risk is precisely at that point...

IF this woman's husband REALLY believed his wife would commit suicide if she knew he was committing adultery AND if he really cared enough about her to not want her to kill herself, then why would he be committing adultery? Also, there are things he could do to help her through discovery and recovery to decrease the likelihood that she would kill herself. There IS help available for people who feel suicidal. (Surely you already know this.)

Most likely this serial adulterer's betrayed wife will find out someday. There are much worse ways for the betrayed to find out than the confession(s) of the adulterer(s), like wasting a LOT more years on an adulterous spouse and THEN finding out by contracting a disease!

Adulterers lack integrity; they don't care what harm they inflict on the betrayed but sometimes pretend they do if they think they can exploit it as part of their justification for keeping the adultery secret.

So this adulterous man supposedly told the other OW his betrayed wife would kill herself if she knew? WHY would you believe that? WHY should we believe that? Maybe the OM just thought that particular lie would make him appear more compassionate and manly than the usual wimpy male excuse that his 'mean' wife won't 'let' him get a divorce? Or maybe the other OW made up that lie because she wants more time to spend with OM before his wife finds out? Or maybe you're just telling us that she-said-he-said that, because you still have some lingering hope that as long as his wife still doesn't know maybe you and the OM can get back together? Who knows?

You're expecting us to believe that the three of you: the OM, the OW (you), and the other OW, all care whether or not his betrayed wife might kill herself? The ONLY thing the posters here know for sure is that adulterers lie to get what they want and then lie to cover it up. And yes, even adulterers who are in recovery might still be lying. It's an addiction and just as addicts frequently relapse after promising the addiction is 'over for good', there is no reason for anyone to believe the words over the actions.

His betrayed wife deserves to be told the truth - no excuses.

And, in the meantime, Sweetsobriquet's BS runs the risk of unknowingly having friendly social interaction with a POS OM who may be snickering to himself, "I boinked your wife, and you don't even know it!"

What TREMENDOUS DISRESPECT to put her BS in that position!

SweetSobriquet, in regard to answering your husband's questions, EVERYTHING he wants to know IS his business. The time you spent in your affair is WASTED TIME for your husband, and he has a right to know every detail if he asks.

"sweetsobriquet: But there were some details that I was willing to share, and some I was NOT willing to share. Dr. Harley advocates "tell all," but my position on some things was, "Why do you want to know?" And if my husband could not articulate a reason that HE found worthy, then I did not answer.


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sweetsobriquet: I opted not to tell him his name. I wanted to keep my husband safe from harm's way, and from legal trouble. He did exhaust himself trying to find out, which perhaps was cruel on my part."

SSB: your arrogance, bitterness, sense of entitlement, and lack of integrity are red flags indicating a deeply entrenched adulterous mindset. IMHO your marriage is nowhere near even beginning recovery. The disrespect you exhibit towards your betrayed husband is appalling, and the fact that you don't even realize that, and in fact seem rather smug about it, says tons about you.

MelodyLane has helped a lot of people here and I for one frankly don't care what time of day or night she posts here.
BTW, what are YOU doing in the middle of the night? Cheating on your husband? Watching him sleep while you gloat over the state of ignorance you purposely keep him in?

You think you're entitled to dictate what your betrayed husband gets to know about your adultery?!?!? You think HE has to come up with a good enough reason for wanting to know anything? You are despicable and IMHO he should dump your a$$ ASAP. You have yourself convinced you are somehow superior to others but what you fail to realize is that you are the only one who thinks so. What you don't seem to get is that it's SELF-delusion: You're inflated ego and sense of entitlement of course seems reasonable to YOU but there's no logical reason for anyone else to agree with your distorted self-preception.

Nothing more pompous than an unreformd, unrepentant adulterer. IF your marriage ever gets into a REAL recovery, you will look back and be ashamed of the things you are saying now.

SSB: answer the questions

"SSB, unfortunately, your idea of "success" is a marriage based on deceit and fraud, which is not a sign of "success" but a sign of waywardness. That IS for any thinking person "to say," and Dr. Harley does say that recovery is impossible under those conditions. So, you can "unabashably" consider dishonesty to be a "success" or even a dog fart if that makes you happy, but in reality, it is not a success in the view of anyone who is not WAYWARD or extremely dysfunctional. Calling dishonesty a "success" is simply more evidence of your waywardness and lack of recovery."

So basically you see your spouse as sort of a pet that you can control by deciding what he gets to know? And your claim that he is supposedly happy with this arrangement is something we should believe repesents a happy/healthy marriage? LOL Whether or not you are still involved with the OM you are still an adulterer IMHO. You have not reformed your thinking away from the selfish, dishonest, entitlement mindset of an adulterer.

IF it's even true that your betrayed husband has supposedly accepted your version of 'recovery' then he unfortunately has settled for far less than he deserves and could have with a REAL wife.

IMHO you are STILL lying to your husband and refusing to tell him the whole truth because you're worried that he might reject you if he knew all the disgusting details. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. But even if he stayed with you, you would have to humble yourself and show appreciation for his staying with you in spite of him knowing everything. And YOU are simply not a good enough person to allow your husband the opportunity to either dump you so he can start a new life or to be the hero who stands by you even though you don't deserve forgiveness. You lack the strength and integrity to be in a relationship with an equal. So you seek to keep your spouse off-balance and in the dark by committing adultery and then refusing to give him the info he deserves to make his own best decision.

And you are self-deluded enough to actually think of yourself as clever in coming up with this scheme? It's the same old stuff ALL adulterers try. Most likely your husband will find out the identity of the OM eventually and may even find out some of the sordid details you're secretly too ashamed to admit. When he does I sincerely hope he has the strength to dump you. And if he does it will be because of your CONTINUED dishonesty and selfishness, your failure to come clean on your own.

You think you have some sort of right to dictate what he gets to know, based on whether or not he can come up with a good enough reason for wanting to know? Besides the obvious lack of respect such an attitude exhibits, you are putting your marital recovery AND your betrayed husband's recovery, second place to the VAIN attempt to protect your self-image. (And I mean 'vain' in both sense of the word: you are vain as in having an inflated ego and your attempts to exert control over your husband will eventually render all the recover efforts done in vain because withou honesty real recovery will never happen)

BTW, does your husband know that you come here to brag about how you don't tell your husband everything? Does he really know that you gloat about refusing to give him more info because you think he hasn't come up with a good enough reason for asking for info? What does he really think about you claiming the current situation with you controlling his right to know is good enough? And if he were truly happy with your refusal to tell the truth then why was he still trying to find out who the OM was? Does he know you make fun of how he tried to find out who the OM was? Does he know you posted here pretending to be him and saying that he and other betrayed spouses who deserved and needed to be treated with respect were just being self-righteous? Is he aware that you think his wanting to know the truth is somehow wrong, that you think his only motive for wanting the lies to stop is because he thinks too highly of himself (liek a 'saint')?

You have revealed that you have a very abusive mentality. You get enjoyment from seeing your husband unsure, off-balance, and settling for what little info you allow him. You come off as gloating about how you keep him in a state of ignorance, always worrying and wondering who the OM is and what exactly you did with OM. I bet a real recovery doesn't appeal to you because it would be devoid of the ADDICTIVE HIGH you get from inflicting such abuse and exercising such power over somebody who obviously must be smitten by you to put up with it.

You're sick.