Thanks mvg. I hear what you are saying. My H is very P/A as well, and I find them very difficult to read. I always find out the hard way how he really feels about something. He never verbalizes, but his opinions always come out through his actions.

It takes a very strong person to rise ABOVE this and still try to change yourself to make the marriage better. I wish I could be more like you.

They did the screwing up and we're all here trying to figure out how to change ourselves to make things better. It wouldn't be so freaking hard if we had been TALKING about our problems before he turned to OW, but that's the problem-- we don't talk. I don't know how to communicate with him in a way that does not put him on the defensive. I'm hoping MC can help me learn how to approach him and not lose my temper when he remains stone-faced and never has anything to say about his life.

That is always my biggest battle. Not losing my temper and saying something hurtful just to get SOME reaction out of him--anything. It usually takes me pushing him over the edge to FINALLY hear how he really feels about something. Well, he's out of town this weekend, so I'm going to enjoy the solitude and take my girls shopping...that always helps, right?!

Mimi,

Please do not beat me about the head; I may not be able to walk afterwards.

I'm speaking to UNDERSTANDING what CSAHM is talking about, and her frustration and FEELING unloved. I also believe in detaching, and in giving. I am also telling her that I understand that it SEEMS as if the reward for your efforts to change and be the best wife you can are small, but that could stem from viewing the ACT of love differently than her FWH.

Her husband MAY be showing his love by helping around the house. This may not be something that SPEAKS to CSAHM, or deposits much in her love bank. HE may not be speaking her most important Love Language.

I agree that, if she is not commenting on his help around the house and commenting about his fathering of the kids, she is missing an opportunity to show him admiration.

That's why I suggest detaching.

Again, please do not beat me about the head. I'll take a mild spanking, though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

This is how PWC is, also. The difference is that I have found a way to talk to him. I don't think on his reaction or defensiveness when I do approach him; this is his part to handle. I approach him respectfully, ask if we can talk, and await his response. Prior to conversations, I examine the questions I want to ask, and try to present them in the most respectful way I can.

I've also learned that if I'm coming from anger, it's NOT time to talk.

This really does sound like something YOU need to work on, prior to engaging your FWH in conversation.

You say that when you are being NICE (translation= giving), your FWH is nice, but when you question him, he withdraws. This sounds pretty normal. You can lessen the withdrawal by showing him more respect and less anger. Control yourself, your actions/reactions. Take responsiblity for that, instead of making the excuse that he's done so much damage that he deserves that behavior from you.

I'm not suggesting you stifle your anger, but place it in the appropriate place and don't harbor it (or bank it), let it go.

that's exactly what I need help with, sl-- controlling my anger when I talk to him. The conversations always start out respectful and controlled, but somehow escalate. I guess I just get sick of talking to myself basically, and hearing him say nothing or just parrot everything I say. He's afraid of me. I don't feel loved, I feel feared.

On the other note, I'm thrilled that he's such a great dad, and a help to me. But, honestly if he wasn't I probably wouldn't have had children with him. I never doubted his devotion to our children and his willingness to help me in any way. But, like you said, I need more than that now. I'm happy I have it and I do thank him often, but I need an emotional attachment now. If we don't have that I fear another A, on either of our parts, and I KNOW I don't want that. All the wonderful things he does are completely nullified if he's lying or CHEATING at the same time.

I don't think that you truly ADMIRE what he is doing. I'm not recommending for you to be insincere. I find it to be ADMIRABLE but what matters is for YOU to find it to be ADMIRABLE.

I'm not sure about where you are in this right now, SAHM.

Do YOU want to RECOVER your marriage because you LOVE your husband? If YOU do, I can do my part to help you with that, help you with some STRATEGIES.

If you are here to COMPLAIN about your H, I'm not going to read further because I cannot HELP you by listening to that nor will this HELP with your OWN PERSONAL RECOVERY of MARITAL RECOVERY. ACTION, WORKING A PLAN is what is necessary.

How do you KNOW that he is being HONEST with you once YOU push him over the edge? I don't see that as necessarily being the TRUTH. That's part of an argument.

SAHM, I encourage TO STOP focusing on YOUR HUSBAND, complaining about HIM, analyzing HIM.

Take a look at YOURSELF. How do YOU want to change? How can YOU change to be the BEST PERSON/WIFE that you can be?

You can only CONTROL YOURSELF..not your HUSBAND..in any way...

In the above example, you spoke of thinking that YOU CAN CONTROL HIM..YOU CANNOT AT ALL...

The BEST WIFE evidences ADMIRATION and APPRECIATION of her HUSBAND....period..you asked about a HAPPY MARRIAGE..that's part of YOUR JOB in the MARITAL TEAM...

But first things first..Has he committed to NEVER SEEING THE OW/Other Women ever again in his life? You did not answer my question about the NC LETTER.

WHAT PLAN are you doing? PLAN A or RECOVERY?

SL:

This is THE TAKER talking. GIVING is not done to get something back in return. Evidening love for you H is done because you want to do it and choose to do it...because it's important to YOU personally to be the BEST WIFE ever.

If your H does not do HIS PART, it's on him. He will LOSE OUT. He will LOSE you because you will fall out of love of him.

GOOD STUFF, SL!! You can come out of TIME-OUT, now....You know I was just kidding..I don't believe in PHYSICAL PUNISHMNENT....

mimi- we did the nc letter-- but he was still talking to her and telling her it was OK to talk (claimed she was black-mailing him) When he finally left the job for a new job, I learned that they had never cut off contact. He didn't adhere to anything, so I gave up. That's what happened, that's where we stand. I have a lot of questions and suspicions about him and his past, still, that I know will never be answered. I guess I have to let go of all that, but it's HARD!! I have no idea if the damage that's been done is even reparable, b/c I don't think I know all the details of the A's.

I definitely have some issues I need to work out. I want to give this marriage 1 last try. Everybody is telling me that I "need to discover myself...set my goals...set my boundaries, etc." I think I've done this. I have no intention of leaving him right now, so i figure we might as well give it one more try. But, like I said I don't trust him. That is my hang-up. I don't know if anyone can help me with this. How long does it take before you start to trust again??

How do you know it's FEAR, SAHM?

I still have this SAME TENDENCY. I used to do it ALL THE TIME in our marriage...yell, scream, throw things...

and I still am prone to "FLY OFF THE HANDLE" (what my H calls it)...

My H is REPULSED by this behavior of mine..it is a LOVEBUSTER...

Now he knows that I see it as a FRAILTY/ACHILLES HEEL of mine (from my childhood-that HE CAN NOT UNDERSTAND) and that I'm working on it...I told him just the other day that I don't want that reputation anymore of being so EASY TO IGNITE...for me it used to be FIGHT or FLIGHT..I'm learning the MIDDLE GROUND..a MAJOR, MAJOR PART OF MY PERSONAL GROWTH...maybe you can find some of my threads about this on the forum...

The translation of what I was saying is that her FWH may believe that he IS evidencing his love through his action of taking care of the children; in essence giving his wife more domestic support. SHE does not seem to place this as highly important to her. This is about HER not communicating what she does need from him. Right now, it sounds like O&H are one of her top EN's, as evidenced by her frustration with his not talking to her, or being closed off.

That is why I suggested finding better ways to respectfully communicate with him. He may not feel safe being honest, for fear that she will not HEAR him, and just explode. He may feel that his efforts to communicate fall on deaf ears.

I DEFINITELY AGREE WITH THIS!! This was certainly the case in our marriage.

But HER FOCUS needs to be on meeting HIS EMOTIONAL NEEDS whatever they may be.

And also to EXPRESS what HER NEEDS are..as you say, SL..I agree..

I have problems with COMPLAINING about what HIS NEEDS are..if it makes him HAPPY,makes him feel good about himself as a man or a father to care for the kids, she should support WHO HE IS..not expect him to be who she wants him to be...

Acceptance, in spirituality, mindfulness, and human psychology, usually refers to the experience of a situation without an intention to change that situation.

I wouldn't say I fly off the handle all the time. And, to be honest I think it's OK to get angry once in a while. It may not always be productive, but it's normal and human.

What scares me is the person who NEVER shows their anger or doesn't know HOW to show their anger. They are the ones we should be afraid of. My husband can be explosive at times--few and far between-- but it's always mis-directed because he never expresses his anger or frustration with me. That's not healthy.

You didn't answer my question about your goals AND you continue to COMPLAIN about your H over whom YOU have NO CONTROL.

He must be a GOOD PROVIDER as well. You've been able to be a SAHM? HOW WONDERFUL!!

And again I ask, are you applying the MB CONCEPTS? Do you understand about ANGRY OUTBURSTS as not being acceptable in PLAN A?

My final attempt...do you want to apply the MB CONCEPTS? If not, I move on..sorry...

Not being critical of you, really..your choice..my choice about my time...

Thanks, mimi. I do agree with MB concepts.

I complain about my H here b/c I have no other forum to complain about him. He is a good man, and everyone likes him. We just don't see eye to eye, but I am the only person who feels this way, including my family. I complain here b/c you all can be objective, and frankly b/c I don't really care what you think of me. When I complain to friends, family, I just come off as a b---- b/c they only see him as a wonderful person and me with all the flaws. Yes, I have things I need to work through.

As far as what's not acceptable in plan A, well, we both need to work on this. H and I need to sit down and review and decide what we can or can't apply. You said you still have angry out-bursts, so you obviously aren't following Plan A verbatim, and yet, you have a happy marriage.

I will read and review your advice. It is sound and reasonable. Right now, I just think you and I are in completely different places, mimi. Hopefully someday I will be able to accept my H and be happy with what we have. Thanks for listening.

Sahm, did you ever go to counseling, IC &/or MC?

I post on the forums sometimes too just to vent. I try not to LB or DJ so I use this space. What I've also come to find out, I'm learning alot about ME from venting and having great folks that respond back.

Ok back to communicating...Does ANY type of communication work for both of you? IE particular subject, particular style, off the cuff, planned time?

I read more about p/a behavior and learned some techniques. Before I just poured everything out to WH, I planned what my questions were, what I thought would be his response, and also what response I wanted. I watched his body language for signs of uncomfortablness. I planned a no more than 15 min. talk or less. Because I have a tendancy to go on and on and on...work out all the details in one fell swoop. I spoke calmly, he was definately on edge, he didn't know what to expect, I sat facing him, touching his leg, I asked a few of my questions, watched and listened, DID NOT INTERRUPT, truly listened, could tell he was getting VERY uncomfortable. Told him thank you for answering my question,and let it go at that.

He is NOW more responsive when I ask a question. He is more open from the get go now. He'll tell me things before I ask. I also use to think I could think for him...actually he told me that....so I DO NOT do that. He has to do his own thinking. At work, at home, with our children, in public.

Recently I had an emotional meltdown in semi-public. Actually I got away from everyone once I felt the tears and heart breaking coming on. He watched me walk out, he came and found me and held me. But the reason for this story is tell you what happened next...a couple days later, after I was regrouped, I asked him over dinner...do you think I over reacted? He calmly looked at me and said yeah maybe a bit- he understood it was an emotional time, but told me HIS OPINION anyway. I said thanks for your opinion (honesty).

I guess what I'm saying is practice talking. Short talks. Not necessarily heavy discussions. And remember your thank you's. Coax a conversation, like you would getting a stray puppy to come to you. Stroke his ego a bit. Just maybe you'll get a lovely surprise like I did. Honesty. I might not agree with WH, but he is communicating and that I LOVE.

OK mvg-- you are eally speaking my language. I hear you and I know my husband will respond to what you are saying b/c I've done it before. I did the face to face, touching the leg, cool calm and collected and watched him squirm. But doesn't it freak you out when he gets uncomfortable? Don't you assume he's hiding something? His nervousnous just confirms to me htat he's lying or leaving something out. It's on those occasions that I discovered more b/c I KNEW by the way he was reacting to my questions that he was lying. When I come at him with guns blazing, he immediately gets angry and defensive, and we get nowhere. But, sometimes I'm afraid of what I'll find out next when I try the calm approach. I'm almost afraid of being rational with him b/c I don't want to see that look in his eye like I've seen before...that told me for sure there was something he had to tell me. Maybe that's why I'm having such a hard time. Maybe I don't want the truth.....

My H and I are in RECOVERY. PLAN A is done when there is a WS. Again, I really recommend that you become familiar with the MBer's BASIC CONCEPTS.

What's different now is that we practice the MBer's keys to an effective marriage, one of these being OPENNESS AND HONESTY. So, my H has told me how he feels about my outbursts, calls me on them when I have MY SLIPS. I say I'm sorry....WE TALK ABOUT IT...

I understand your COMPLAINING..BEEN THERE DONE THAT...

Regardless of whether we are now in different places, I'm here to HELP you get to where I am..share what I have learned...what I've learned is that COMPLAINING AND VENTING ABOUT HIM keeps you in a negative, hopeless state. You will feel hopeless and helpless 'cause you can only CONTROL YOURSELF. DOING SOMETHING to work on YOURSELF when you get that COMPLAINING URGE will definitely help you feel better....about yourself, about life...

I've been there. I would come on here and vent and FOLKS would get on my case and TELL ME WHAT TO DO...and trying to pass this all back to you, SAH....

FOCUS ON THE POSITIVE..STAY IN THE NOW...WORK ON YOURSELF..will ALL help YOU FEEL BETTER..give you that sense of PERSONAL POWER that SL is speaking about....