Thanks LA,

I need to keep bumping this post for new people to read. FWS's help so much with BS's understanding and questions that all the other post are too much to read. We all know you can only really keep up with a couple of posts, so to have something with only short answers helps.

Thanks again HAF

Bump - and Loving Anyway, IMHO this is very true and important concept that is not well-known in our society:

"Maybe the key was to stop reacting to our emotions and acting from beliefs, eh? Then the feelings follow."

Behavior is caused by feelings AND feelings are caused by behavior. It works both ways! So when MB principles are followed to make deposits into your spouse's Love Bank, it causes your spouse to feel in love with you AND it causes YOU to feel in love with your spouse!

BTW, Love Buster's cause your spouse to love you less AND cause you to love your spouse less; because your feelings towards your spouse will be affected by how you treat your spouse, either positively or negatively.

Sorry for the thread-jack, just wanted to comment on that principle.

Maybe someday my WXH will come here to post as a FWH...

my post may not entirely apply since I never got to the point of physically leaving BS but I definitely left emotionally while the "fog" was in

why did I decide to return?? I don't think it was so much a conscious decision as opposed to the passage of time with NC and a lot of reading ... particularly on these boards and other MB materials. The more I read and recognized the typical behaviour & fog-speak in myself the more I began to realize just how "unreal" all that was.

As those realizations set in and the fog lifted the clarity of the mind began to re-rewrite the history of my M (while I re-wrote it to be this awful & horrible experience during the A ... you get to re-rewrite and realize that there were awful and horrible moments but in reality those are far outweighed by the good and happy times) ...

I began to see OW in a different (and not so flattering) light ... the lies and deception we were leading with each other takes on an unappealing pale when cast in a light of clarity ... I began making comparisons between BS and OW ... terrible to do I know but I was drawn to thinking of all the ways BS was better than OW ... if only I had the clarity to do that before it all!

By the time the "fog" (I hate using that word because it feels like an excuse but I know of no better way to describe) was well lifted I realized that BS is the woman I married and chose to commit my life to ... I chose her for a reason years ago and she is still just as wonderful as she was the day we met ... at that point the decision to return (sub-consious or otherwise) was a no-brainer!

Long post somewhat shorter ... IMHO it's about 3 things for the WS to return (in heart and body) to BS:
- NC ... absolute 100% NC
- time ... to allow withdrawl feelings to subside and restore clarity of thought
- education ... reading and recognizing how incredibly scripted A's are helps to lift any delusion that my A was "different" or "the one" ... blah blah blah ... it wasn't!

HTH

I realized I was making a huge mistake. I wasn't in love with OM. I was trying to force myself to think I was, but deep down I knew it was something else. Lust, or maybe a desired to be "wanted" by someone like him.

I wanted to be able to have a close R with my H, our DD and our family's. The lies and deception of carrying out the A made that hard. When you are caught up in the A, all you care about is your next "fix". My R with my DD suffered because of it, now when I look back that really breaks my heart. Luckily, she loves her mom, and we are close still now.

It was tough at first, we had to get thru H's anger phase. Many times I wondered if we'd make it and if it was worth it, I'd think maybe I should have let him go so he could find someone who he didn't have "baggage" with. Fortunately we made it thru and eventually decided to have another child.

When I was pregnant with that child, hormones made me have an emotional mini "breakdown" where I apologized again for what I did. I could tell he appreciated it.

I hope I was helpful to you. I never actually moved out, but mentally I had prepared myself for a D. I didn't actually think my H would want to reconcile. I was shocked really when he did.

Thanks everyone again for your input.

I would like some more of your opinions. I was wondering whether you think printing this post will help my WW. I have printed a number of articles and posts to try and help my WW, but she says they don't make her change her mind. I've told her that other people in exactly the same position as her come home against their will and were still in love with the OP, but they appeared to do the right thing for their family. I think she thinks we could never be the same again as we had a very close relationship in the past. I like anyone else would like to turn the clocks back, but what is done is done I just want to fix it so it can't break again.

I've spoken to Steve Harley a few times and he would like to speak to my WW, but she refuses. I've asked her to put the needs of the children first but I still don't get anywhere. We had a very good marriage before this happened and I could understand her reactions if I hit her or was unreasonable or drank too much. All I've ever done is try to provide for my family, which has come at a cost. It meant her doing most things with our boys, while I was at work. I think I'm ready to move on but my boys don't want me to so all the time they want us together I'll continue what I can for them. We aren't living together and we are on the verge of selling our home and its very difficult to speak to my with without the boys being there, so when I do, it can result in an argument.

Steve Harley has said I must be honest with the children and although it was difficult at first to talk to them, they do keep opening up to me, but I'm told I'm wrong to talk to them.

Thanks again for your help.

HAF

Who told you this? Talk to them about what?

HAF, I don't want to thread jack, but IMHO, trying to get your WW to come home on principles (good for the children) is a very tough task.

I find it somewhat of a paradox that most of the reponses from FWS indicate they came home for princples, yet plan A and B specifically avoid principles, but appeal to a WS emotions.

I would be interested to hear whether the FWS who returned based on principles feel like they had recieved deposits to their love bank that increased its balance, prior to them deciding returning was the right thing to do.

I sometimes wonder whether the key is getting the love bank balance high enough so that the emotions become "neutrel" to the decision, which allows the decision to be made on principles.

Just my 2 cents.

I feel for you... you are currently very close in age to me and my H. We also have two young boys. My A was back in 2001 though.

I feel VERY strongly she will regret moving forward with D'ing you and persuing the A.

Unfortunately if she's determined to do this, it will be hard to stop her. WE humans seem to have to learn lessons the hard way.

In answer to BigK

My WW and her family say I'm wrong to tell the boys and they should be kept out of things. I've told them what their mother is doing. I told them I will never say what she has done is right and I have told them I will never accept OP as a good person as his actions have caused the problem we have today.

I always ask them how they feel if they are angry, sad or happy, even if its at me. I've had arguments with my WW and then apologised to them and they say its not your fault. My youngest boy even said "Mam's says you are not to speak in front of us but she tells us to stay when you ask to speak to her". My boys miss nothing. I suppose they feel happy talking to me as they are as upset as me about the situation, so it helps us bond more. I never tell them they should hate their mother, but I do say she doesn't understand what she is fully doing. I've told them if they don't want to talk then they can go to their rooms and that can be out of bounds, but they say they want to know. They tell me when they try to tell their mother want they want she walks away. They even ask me what Steve Harley had to say.

In reply to your last posts, I'm of the opinion nothing ventured nothing gained and at least I'm trying something for my boys, but I'm aware it will probably fall on deaf ears.

I hope you don't think I'm saying don't try! I hate seeing a family torn apart, especially when there are children involved. My heart just breaks for your boys. They want mom and dad to be happy and together most of all.

It's just frustrating that a WS thick in the fog won't listen to reason. I know, I was one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Same as above. Wasn't saying don't try, just saying that the general experience seems to be reasoning with a WS is not effective. Plan A doesn't include a lot of reasoning or R talk.

I realize that actually, when it comes to my BH, he subconsciously tried plan A for a few weeks. When he decided to leave, he did sort of a plan B. The plan B immediately awakened me... that and when he "exposed" that he found out about the EA to me. His departure and him revealing that he found out, was enough to completely snap me out of the "fog".

I forgot to mention also that the EA was consciously because I was trying to compensate for the things lacking in my relationship with my spouse. I even told him that. I knew I wasn't in love with the OM. I had deep feelings for him, but wasn't in love, and there was never any question in my mind that I would leave my spouse for OM.

BTW, I think anything is worth a try, especially since you have kids involved. They deserve to have their mother and father, happily together, under the same roof. All children deserve that actually.

Thanks for your responses.

I haven't taken offence to anyone who says my WW won't listen and I do think this won't change anything, but as we have all agreed its worth a try. I was just very curious to see what your opinions were being that most of you are FWS's.

Sorry for adding that, I feel like I'm condeming you and dragging up something you may all what to forget now you have recovered. I can't thank you people enough for being here as it does help so much. I hope one day I could be helping other people from my perspective.

I do think even with everything said and done something will happen or someone will say something which will kick my WW out of the fog, just not sure what that will be. The problem with Plan B is the boys being caught in the middle. Not living with my WW has helped me to some degree deal with things better. However there are moments when I just feel very angry, but they are getting less.

My wife's LB balance for me was even further in the negative. No way she returned because of the LB.

HAF, I’m trying to think of what I can offer that’s useful:


Me, neither. Probably I would have filed for the Big D, and been done with it. But we have FIVE kids. And five years ago, at the bottom of my marriage, I had reasoned that divorce was out of the question for the following reasons:

1) Socially and emotionally bad for the kids (especially because several of ours were medically fragile);
2) Divorce is impoverishing, and I didn’t want my kids to “do without”;
3) Un-funded/uninsured therapies for the kids would have been compromised;
4) Divorced parents make unappealing dates, because they are a) impoverished by divorce and b) have kids, SOOOooooo… my romantic future would not have improved;
5) If I had trouble negotiating about kid-issues with my H as a spouse, it would have been much harder negotiating with him as a legal enemy through the courts;

That is my list of reasons for deciding not to pursue a divorce. My life, and the lives of my children, would have been WORSE. (Modify this list as appropriate, for your wife.) You might notice that AT THAT TIME affection for my husband did not appear on that list.


The answer is always going to depend on why the spouse had an affair to begin with, which ENs were not being met (or will be impossible to meet), etc.

If your wife does not feel that it is necessarily in the child/children’s best interest that she remain your wife; and that there is no benefit to her, either; then there might not be much to advance your cause.

So the question is, how to demonstrate marriage's benefits for wife and children ... to your wife!

Five years from our lowest low point, and two years past the A, my husband and I have progressed into a loving and happy life together, so I do know it can be done! (Often, the unhappiest couples make the most dramatic turnarounds.)

The evidence is below

HAF –

When things were at their worst in my marriage, a friend sent me a copy of “Does Divorce Make People Happy: Findings from a Study of Unhappy Marriages,” published by Linda Waite at the University of Chicago (funded by the Institute for American Values). Maybe your wife will find some of this persuasive.

I’m putting a link here, and hoping for Justuss’s permission since the data is strongly pro-marriage: http://www.americanvalues.org/pdfs/doesdivorce/doesdivorce.pdf

Here are some of the study’s findings comparing over 500 married people:

Unhappily married adults who divorced or separated were no happier, on average, than unhappily married adults who stayed married.

The vast majority of divorces (74 percent) happened to adults who had been happily married five years previously.

Unhappy marriages were less common than unhappy spouses. Three out of four unhappily married adults were married to someone who WAS happy with the marriage.

Two out of three unhappily married adults who avoided divorce or separation ended up happily married five years later.

Many currently happily married spouses have had extended periods of marital unhappiness, often for quite serious reasons, including alcoholism, infidelity, verbal abuse, emotional neglect, depression, illness, and work reversals.

Divorce, on average, fails to improve the psychological and emotional well-being of unhappily married people.

When unhappily married people were surveyed five years later, those who remained married reported a far greater degree of happiness than those who had divorced. In fact, 66 percent of those who had stayed together reported that they were happy five years later—compared to a 19 percent rate of happiness among those who had divorced or separated.

The most miserable marriages had the most dramatic turnarounds. Seventy-eight percent of people who stayed in very unhappy marriages said that the marriages were currently happy five years later.

Would seem to be contradictory to the premise behind plan A. Guess you never know.

Rprynne - I disagree.

Plan A is about the BS making changes and showing them to the WS who is an active affairee. It is showing that WS that the BS is willing and able to meet EN's if the affair ends.

But it is foolishness to think you can make LB depostis with a WS in the throes of an affair and Plan A has never claimed this is possible.

Sheesh - it's barely possible to make LB deposits when the affair is over and the WS is in withdrawal.

This is exactly what Dr Harley says.

SSB- There is no reason you would get edited for posting that link.

Well just to let you know I text my WW yesterday to say I had printed off some stuff for her to read and asked where I should send it, but got no reply. Last night my WW came home to pick some stuff up for the boys but never took the print outs.

My WW said the boys come first and this Saturday I've been invited to a 40th birthday party. I asked WW is she could have the boys for a few hours which she agreed but when she came to pick the boys up she wanted to take them back to her mothers as she said she may want to go to bed. I refused and said that I think they should stay in their own beds. She forgets she has them 5 nights in a row and at the moment they spend more time with their grandparents than me. I asked the boys what they wanted and they both said they want to stay at home so I'll now miss the party to be with my boys. I would have thought that if you put your children first then you would do whatever it was to see them. Do you think I'm being harsh. DS7 told me his grandparents asked if he wanted to stay on Saturday but he didn't reply. I don't mind them going if that's what they want but it appears not. Her loss I believe or am I cutting my nose of to spite my face.

I spoke to my WW the other day to see if she was ok and she said we need to talk about the house but still hasn't spoke to me. Last night my DS7 phone to ask where a football shirt of his was as his mother couldn't find it. Why didn't she just call me?

Anyway thanks again for your replies and SSB the stuff you posted is very interesting, thanks.

HAF