Yes Miss M I do. Im so thankful for finding this site on my own one day. Thank you all! Still a long fight to go.

Well no updates really lol, just bored at work today. The weather went from mid 70's to high of 40 in 2 days!

Havent heard anything from my W in a few days. Still working on me!

Hope all is doing well.

"What does forgiveness look like to me? Thats a tough question, about the best thing I could say is... Give me another chance? Thats hard for me to answer"

BZZZZZ! wrong answer LOL
No seriously - I'm not trying to be mean but this is just another example of Zach wanting something isn't it? You want her to forgive you because you want her to give you another chance. Please do not undervalue her forgiveness. It's a gift she does not in any way owe to you. Reconciliation (giving you another chance) is quite another matter though... She most certainly does not owe you that and IF she ever grants you that much grace, you should most definitely show much more appreciation for it (translation: ZERO expectation that she owes it to you).

"If she was ready to forgive in my opinion she would start doing things to help her forgive me like counsleing and books and such, spend time with me during the week and see how that goes?"

Being able to forgive you would not necessarily mean she will spend time with you... ever again. You have to accept that fact Zach. ONLY then will you truly appreciate her forgiveness. Again, forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing. It is entirely possible for her to forgive you without reconciling with you. She may decide that she never again wants to risk a relationship with somebody who has your track record. Or she may decide that you will have to prove yourself over an extended period of time before she would consider a possible reconciliation with you. BOTH options are perfectly understandable, her right, and the smart thing for her to do. If she chooses one of those options instead of giving you another chance, will you accuse her of not forgiving you?

"What she would stop saying or doing? Well this week when I have spoke with her shes been real nice and carrys on a conversation so not much she can really change there. What she would stop doing? Possibly spend more time with me and not so much with her friend. Thats about all I can ask for"

Again, this is about what Zach wants, about her reuniting with you. (And even in regards to her friend, about wanting to control her.)

Zach she doesn't even owe it to you to be your friend ever again, let alone to stay married to you or to give you a chance by going on dates with you. She doesn't have to go to counseling to try to forgive you or to try to reconcile with you. She isn't doing anything wrong IMHO.

I CHOSE to try to save my marriage with a serial adulterer. I didn't have to do that. It would have been OK for me to divorce my WH and never give him another chance. It would not have made me unforgiving. I chose to give my WXH another chance because we have children together, we had been together for a long time, and I understood why he was so messed up (even though he didn't), AND because I thought the MB principles I had come across might still have time to work. But whether or not I chose to divorce him or to try to save my marriage, I forgave him.

Now, just because I forgave him doesn't mean we are friends! He is out of my life as much as is possible/practical. And IF I were ever to give him another chance I will INSIST on a very lengthy time period of him proving he truly is changed, him making compensations for the damage he caused, him going to counseling to solve his problems that led to his serial adultery BEFORE I will even date him!

Forgiveness does not guarantee that you will get anything else besides the forgiveness. And that forgiveness is in itself more than she owes you and should be fully appreciated by itself.

You will never fully appreciate what you expect, Zach.

Thanks Meremortal for that post.

I would not accuse her of not forgiving me. As far as forgiving me. She says she has. Maybe she has forgave me because she still answers my calls,txt, ect. But your right reconciliation is different. You made a great point through your post how different they are.

Yes your right, she doesnt owe me anything and at this point I dont expect her to give me anything. I dont blame her if she never wants to talk to me ever again.

Thats great for you to give your WXH another chance, Im sorry it didnt work out, I dont know your story or anything. But I have a question, and I know everyone is different, but how long did it take you to forgive and decide you want to try to work it out with them? Did he give an effort at all like I have been? Im just curious to your story, not asking you to give me answers to my W.

Yes your right, forgiveness doesnt guarantee anything, cause she says she forgives me but doesnt think she can forget. Thats understandable. If it takes me showing change for a really long time, ill be here till divorce day. Ill probably fight for my W and continue changing myself to be better for her till the day she becomes intimate with another man. That dont mean I wont stop changing myself then though.

What a boring last few days....Ive done completely nothing but sit on the computer while im at home, cant find anything to do out of the house. Bah, I feel like im going into a depression almost.


Anyone up tonight?

Exercise, do some hobbies, make a good life for yourself. You might be going into a depression. If you stop enjoying things in life, see your doc.

Its just like I go day to day with no point in life now. I know I should be living life for myself and all but im to the point where I feel like im waiting for my W to do something.

I know I know, this is stupid behavior, but thats how I feel what im doing. Maybe im just having a rough couple of days cause of christmas things with out families being apart.

Wait for your wife, but continue making a good life for yourself. Hopefully she will join you.

The holidays are EXTREMELY hard on everyone going through this. If you continue feeling like there is no point in life, see your doctor.

Try to worry (and change, if necessary) only about the things that you CAN control rather than the things that you CAN'T.

Thank you both for the encouragement.


Tonight was our annual christmas thing at her aunts and I only knew from her away message, and havent heard anything from her in a few days now. But like you guys said, worry about what I can change, the rest is up to god.


Im glad I have church in the morning, maybe it will help out! I think my sudden depression is def. cause of the holidays.

Exercise will help if you don't want to do the anti-D's. The holidays are tough. Stick with us.

It's great how healing going to church can be, isn't it? I went to confession today (I make it a point to go once a month these days), and I felt so much better afterwards. I try to see the same priest everytime, as he knows my whole story. It's very uplifting to receive that kind of encouragement, thoughts, and prayers.

God Bless!

Yes it is! My pastor knows my whole story and he gives me encouragement. And to think before my seperation my W tried to get me to go a bunch of times and I would refuse <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

"Thats great for you to give your WXH another chance, Im sorry it didnt work out, I dont know your story or anything. But I have a question, and I know everyone is different, but how long did it take you to forgive and decide you want to try to work it out with them?"

Actually, I don't think there ever was a time that I didn't feel like forgiving my WH. I always was the one in our relationship willing to forgive, willing to work on the marriage, even willing to 'forget' (tried BUT this part does NOT work if the WS doesn't change/compensate). It really had nothing to do with my WH deserving or even asking for forgiveness. As far as I know he still doesn't even believe he really did anything all that bad... so forgiveness is not really something he ever sought from me... OR appreciated when I gave it.

His POV of his serial adultery alternated between:

He didn't do it at all - I imagined it all or I was lying
(trying to gaslight me)

He did it but it wasn't anything wrong - everybody does it
(I made too big a deal of it - minimizing - which BTW rendered my forgiveness and giving him another chance not worth much in his eyes)

He did it but it was OK because (in his mind) he had provided certain things ($) that he felt entitled him to cheat (trade-offs he negotiated in his own imagination but I never agreed to)

He did it but it was all my fault because I was imperfect (a mere mortal)

He did it but it was OK because our marriage was 'dead' (a state he refused to remedy because he didn't want to be deprived of this justification to cheat)

He did it but it was because the OW were somehow superior to me and therefore more worthy of his 'love' (from meeting some of the OW face-to-face I knew this justification was a lie LOL)

The POV he RARELY expressed, and I doubt he ever truly felt, was that he was sorry for what he did, that he had done anything wrong that he needed to apologize for. And then he would later let it slip that he only broke up with the OW, pretended to be sorry, etc. because I FORCED him to...meaning he felt entitled to keep me but since I wouldn't stay unless he said and did certain things, then I was 'making' him say/do things he didn't really feel, things he believed he shouldn't have to say/do in order to keep me. For every change he made and for each OW he gave up, in order to get another chance, he later expressed tons of resentment and reverted back to his old ways.

So, yes, I was willing to forgive. But he didn't want forgiveness. He wanted a 'home free' pass or a 'do over' as if he had never done anything wrong. He didn't want me to forgive because that implied acknowledgement that he had done something wrong. He just wanted me to forget as in shut up and put up.

During my attempts to get him to give up the latest OW he sometimes accused me of not forgiving him (because in his mind forgiveness would have meant he would not have had to make any changes like stop flirting and stop going out to lunch with female coworkers). Sometimes he would angrily blurt out that saying I forgave him was an insult (because he didn't feel he had done anything wrong that he needed to be forgiven for). And at other times he would growl that he would never forgive me! (for exposing the adulteries and refusing to allow him to cake-eat).

"Did he give an effort at all like I have been? Im just curious to your story, not asking you to give me answers to my W."

Yes and no. In some ways you remind me of him. He wanted what he wanted and he wanted it NOW. He was eager to try whatever quick and easy way, what specific thing to say or do, in order to keep me in his life. He revealed by his reactions that he expected a positive result for himself for every thing he said and did. This of course made it harder for me to believe his sincerity. And after each gesture he made, that didn't get immediately rewarded by me, he would act as if I had been 'mean' to him, or that he had done ALL he could but that I simply would never forgive him and give him another chance...

He also wanted me to always be cheerful and fun when with him and for the subject of his adulteries to NEVER come up ever again, not even in MC! (BTW only two of our daughters have anything to do with him now and they KNOW they have to always be cheerful around him or else he won't spend time with them...)

On the other hand, Zach you are different from him in some ways too: He NEVER took the initiative to seek any info from any source (counseling, books, online) on how to save our marriage. I always did that and that may be a big part of why he never did... he never had to. IF my WXH ever contacts me again with a real recovery offer I will have to see that he has already started learning and applying info on how to repair the damage he's caused. AND he will have had to start doing this without any clues or requests from me to do so. I do give you credit for posting here. It is actually very rare for a WS to post here, usually it is the BS alone doing the research on how to save the marriage.

I'm pretty sure though that when his first wife divorced him, he was the one who wanted to reconcile, not her. He had been divorced from her for several years before I met him... but still nursing his wounds from her leaving him. They married young, she caught on really quickly that he had a problem, and she left him. She separated from him only six months after they married and the divorce was final a year after they married. Of course I didn't get too much accurate info from my WH and his family about why she left him so quickly and completely until years after I was already married to him myself... It was implied that she left him for another man. I know a bit more of the truth now and it had nothing to do with HER cheating on HIM.
I don't think he made any honest effort to fix his problem back then or to give her any real reason to trust him again. And she was not willing to risk giving him another chance - her prerogative IMHO.

He was much more careful to keep his true self and his problem hidden from me until we had been together for a longer period of time. Plus we had children together and I had a lot of false hope minus the knowledge of the MB techniques. Unfortunately, he also 'protected' himself from falling in love with me the way he fell in love with his first wife. And wouldn't you know his cheating problem was what he employed to do that? By refusing to do anything romantic with his wife (other than when he was trying to get me to marry him and some very brief pursuits of me when I was thinking of divorcing him because of his adulteries, he pretty much ignored me) and ONLY doing romantic stuff with OW, he felt safer in his second marriage I guess.

I think your wife is more like his first wife than I am - maybe that means your wife and my WXH's first wife are smarter than I am? LOL

You don't appear to be suffering any withdrawal symptoms from ending contact with the OW. That is working in your favor on the one hand... You weren't 'in love' with the OW and weren't making plans with them to leave your wife for any of them, right?

However, what you have working against you is that you have a PATTERN of behavior, of seeking sexual gratification outside of your marriage. This is maybe even worse than the kind of adultery where somebody naively allows themselves to become too close to an OP and then 'falls in love'. Because instead of having a temporary addiction to a particular OP who happened to cross your path, you have an addiction that you carry along with you no matter who you are with, it was part of you before you married, and unless you seek counseling specifically to overcome it, it will most likely plague you for the rest of your life.

It might seem dormant sometimes but don't trust that Zach. You MUST deal with this and KNOW for certain you have destroyed the root of this addiction.

For a long time I could assure myself that my WH really did love me and things would be OK because his adulteries were at first very brief and he obviously wasn't 'in love' with the OW... but then after what I assumed were years of him being faithful, he developed a relationship with an OW that although he claimed he did not love, he sure had a tough time ending it with her. He waffled back and forth for almost a year between her and I and acted very angry and depressed when he finally ended it with her. Also, that time he resisted allowing me to provide for his EN's and made cruel comparisions implying the OW did things better than I did. He would even go so far as rehang the t.p. the way she did and refold his sox the way she did! GRRRRRR!!!If I had known about MB back then I would have recognized these as withdrawal symptoms. So that time he was not only plagued with a general addiction to adultery but had also become addicted to the OW. I 'made' him write a no contact letter that I sent to the OW. I didn't know about MB principles yet but this time I somehow just knew this was different than his other A's and that I would need this done in order to take him back.

Then there was another period of several years when as far as I know he didn't cheat. But he failed to follow through on all the promises he made to go to counseling, go on dates with me, work on the marriage, stop going on business trips alone, be accountable. In fact he acted very resentful that I had required him to make those promises in order to get back together with him. He started saying things about me having a 'jealousy' problem and that's why I 'made' him promise those things... He also indicated that IF I really had forgiven him I wouldn't still be expecting him to be accountable, would allow him to take women from work out to lunch, wouldn't mind him flirting with women at parties, etc.

Then along came OW#7: 16 years younger than him, impressed by his making $55 per hour, and flattered by his flirting skills... This OW he fell so 'in love' with (was so addicted to) that he literally sobbed at the thought of having to give her up. (BTW, witnessing that was immensely hurtful to me since in all the years I had known him I had never seen him shed a single tear! He certainly didn't cry when he was trying to talk me into giving him another chance!)

His addiction to her was so strong that even when she put him on an embarrisingly short leash, tried to prevent him from spending time with his daughters, and one of our daughters called him kitty whipped, he went along with the OW's rules for him! Even when our oldest daughter told him to choose between her and the OW, and even when our youngest daughter said she felt like daddy was pretending she was dead when he was with the OW and her little girl, he still chose the OW over us. AND even when our oldest daughter was hospitalized for severe depression and our youngest daughter began cutting herself, he still couldn't give up the OW.

Eventually the OW dumped him for another man and he's been depressed and angry ever since... several years now.

Zach, even though so far you have not developed any deep attachments or addictions to any particular OW, please do not assume that the more casual sex of serial adultery somehow insulates you from that. You may have just been lucky so far in staying clear of an OW who you'd really fall for... or weren't involved with any of the OW long enough for the addictive power to be transferred specifically to her. Or as in my WH's case, you weren't going through a mid-life crisis yet.

Your serial adultery habits need to be addressed FIRST before you can offer your BW any assurance that you really have changed and are now capable of being faithful to her forever.

And that has nothing whatsoever to do with your wife, whatever problems your marriage may have had, or even what needs the OW may have been meeting.

So IMHO Zach you need to stop focusing on your wife and whether or not she will take you back, or even forgive you. Yes you should say and do some things to help her get over the damage you caused her but your real task right now should be to find out why Zach behaved as he did, what about ZACH's childhood/thinking/rationalizations/morals led to Zach's pattern of adulterous behavior? And what is ZACH doing to fix HIS problem? AFTER that is taken care of AND you have shown over a long period of time that you have really changed for good, if your wife is still available and interested in reconciliation, then you can focus on trying to convince her to give you another chance.

Sorry so long... but hey you asked LOL

Hey its ok, im so glad you posted that to me, it sure did make me think ALOT!


Your question....

That is working in your favor on the one hand... You weren't 'in love' with the OW and weren't making plans with them to leave your wife for any of them, right?


Actually I did start getting attached to the OW. I told my W to get divorce papers that week and I was in a crazy fog, and didnt see any future or have any feelings with her. The OW on the other hand I was having a great time with, I cant believe to this day what I was doing to my W. One day the OW got sent off to a behavior camp her parents sent her to for 2 months, no contact period by anyone...friends/fmaily/ anyone. So the first 3 weeks or so I was down and was really missing her, so yes I did get attached to her. As far as saying I "loved her" dunno if I would go that far with it. But was defiently attached to her. I got over it over time and realized what was important and here I am today.




As far as dealing with my problems with adultry, I really think for the most part I understand my issues. Ive went over this and we discussed a lot of these problems and have read books to help me. I have no desire to go elsewhere if I get back with my W.



I havent spoken with my W really in over a week now. Her Birthday is tuesday. I am going to get her some flowers (Calililly or however u spell them, we had them in our wedding and they are her favorite flower). Im also going to get a card and catch her walking to her car on the way to lunch...im off work that day....and give them to her because I love her and want her to have them, if she doesnt give me the response then thats fine.


Im not doing it as manipulation im doing it cause I love her and want her to know I care, if she doesnt give a reaction thats fine with me, I showed I cared. She told me not to get her anything but Im going to get her those flowers and a card atleast.


On another note, she txted me today in sunday school class and she had gotten on my AOL Instant Messenger name ( She knows my Passwords) and accused me of talking to/hanging out with a girl shes threatend by cause she was on my buddy list. Why? Obviously she still cares or she wouldnt be doing these things. Im going to delete that person cause I didnt know it would be a big deal really, I had a reason she was on there.



I wanted to mention that cause I didnt know how to take it.



So thats where you get your name Mere Mortal? Cause of your husband?

Good Morning all, so boring so far at work and I havent been here for even 30mins! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well I got some flowers coming, the same ones we used in our wedding to my house today. Anyone have any suggests on how to suprise her or something else I could do to suprise her? Trying to get some more ideas

Zach:

You mentioned she was stressed about the new job, how about a spa day?

Good Idea, ill look around today, not really any places local here for that. She has another interview today about it, so she should know by today I think.

Hi Zach, I've been busy, just checked in.

Calla lillies sure are beautiful. My personal favorite is Black Eyed Susan. Yellow daisies with dark brown centers.

Please learn patience. Some people's brains take longer to jell than others'. I spent decades in a prolonged adolescence, so my mental development took way longer than my physical aging. Patience shows maturity. I'm still working on it.

Something you wrote that brought home to me your youth: The "OW's" parents had the authority to send her off to a behavior camp. You guys aren't old enough to be setting up a marriage and household yet. Not if your peers or your OW hasn't even reached the age of majority or been emancipated by the courts.

Patience, so you can become an adult. You two may even live several months, a year, apart, while you grow more mature. Even if you don't reconcile, you haven't wasted the time you spent working on yourself. You're investing in your manhood, you're maturing. You still have a life.