No I didnt do it to get her attention. I did it cause its IMPORTANT and what I need to be doing. I need to get out of the debt im in, id care less if it helps or not. I did it cause its important and thats my priority right now to pay off my bills and save my money. Im being a grown up now, not someone who spends all of their money on stupid stuff. Im being a grown up, mature person who puts their priorities first.

[color:"red"] She was very impressed, maybe she will pass that on to my W
[/color]

[color:"red"] Maybe she will see the changes and im being a lot more responsible now.
[/color]

Then what are those comments about?

committed

Meremortal- Thanks for that post.

No I didnt go out with her friend that day to make her jealous. That was the day I found out about the OM and I was talking suicuide and was really down. Her friend called me on her own and asked if she would pick me up and take me to get something to eat, we just so happened to pass my W going down the road which she flipped out about. Me and her friend both agreed not to do anything like that again to mess her friendship up bwt them. I didnt have any attentions to her getting mad or jealous over that. Ive had my chances to go out with OW and do things Zach would go off and do in the past, Ive denied those requests.


[color:"red"] [/color]


No I didnt cheat on her to get a reaction.I wish she would have left me the first time I did do it. She found out about 3 of them at the same time, I let her know of them all. It didnt help my ego at all. I never fixed the problems ive had at that time, she took me back that night. The problem was, I was never scared to lose her. Before I had my A, I even told myself this out loud. "I wish I was scared to lose her". I said that outloud to myself. I knew I could run over her and get away with it. I never really thought she would get up and leave, boy wasnt I wrong. Im proud of her for standing up for herself.



Hear me when I say this, YES I love my W even more since this has happened. It has taught me so much and who I really want to be with. Yes if my W came back today and asked if I would wanna be with her forever, yes I would. I will forgive her being with this OM. I love her that much. I told her a month or so ago... "If it takes you being with OM to realize you wanna be with me, then so be it". I truly do want to be with her and ONLY her forever.





I have a whole different outlook when I think of us and our relationship now, I love her tons more since this has happened and its taught me whats really important in life and what I really do want. No I am not going to go out with OW and date OW. Im going to wait for my W till we divorce. I love her and I will wait for her. I think shes making a big mistake she will realize over time what she really wants. I love her and I will wait cause shes all I wanna be with and the onlY i wanna be with.

That doesnt mean I did that for my W to notice, its just a thought. I didnt even think about it till today. I paid that money cause im paying my bills off, thats something I havent done in the past is manage my money. I would go out and buy thousands of dollars in car parts. It was just a thought really, didnt mean to sound I did it for my W notice. I see what your saying though.

This statement is rather indicative of the last 50+ pages in this thread. You are projecting what you want your wife to be feeling onto her, when the truth is you have no idea what she is really feeling. You CANNOT empathize with how she is feeling, in anything more than an academic sense.
You need to STOP placing your expectations and assumptions on her and just let it be. You don't KNOW that she is clueless. You simply WANT her to be clueless, because that means she is making a mistake and could come back to you.

Also, is your wife a christian? I ask because you label her behavior with the OM as morally wrong. I say this because her actions are only morally wrong if she believes that God views her as married until the divorce as final, and thus her relationship with the OM is adultery. If she is NOT religious, you are NEVER going to convince her that her behavior is morally wrong, seeing as how she has filed for and informed you of legal separation. In her mind, her actions are legally and morally ok.
In short, Im saying that you cannot judge your wife by your religious beliefs if she does not hold the same beliefs. That is a sure way to put another nail in the coffin.

Its always hard to realize that the consequences of our actions can be final, but I think that is how you need to approach this. I'll reiterate the advice so many have already left. I think you should act like your wife is going through with the divorce. Don't check up on her at all. Don't text message her. Don't sit at home pining away. If she calls, answer the phone and politely answer her questions or offer light hearted chit chat. No relationship talk unless she initiates it. Settle your affairs with her family as quickly as possible and then don't initiate contact with them either.

Just move on as if you are getting a divorce. As you know, this does not mean that you get to date other women. You don't get that right until you are officially divorced. Just love your life with zero expectations from her. Pick a hobby that doesn't trigger anything for her (like weight-lifting) and use that to take your mind off her. Also, put your energy into your work to try and get promoted, or enroll in a technical school to further your automotive knowledge. Why not work on your ASE certs?

All these things are designed to better you, and have nothing whatsoever to do with your wife. However, she WILL notice that you are not being needy and creating drama for her, and she WILL notice that you are evolving into a man.

IMHO she already endured too much in order to give you second, third... chances. She's suffered hurt, fear, anger, loss of self-esteem... because of your selfish choices. She doubts you will put up with much discomfort for yourself just to keep her in your life. Will you stand by her and your marriage even though she is now involved with an OM? Was her love for you stronger than your love for her? Do you consider her feelings less important than your own? She's determining the answers to those questions by what you say and do.

Yes I understand what I put her through, no I will not feel her pain but I do understand and deeply am sorry. I will put up a fight for this marriage. Yes Ill stand right beside her even if she is still with this OM. Yes its a lot stronger now, and I think our relationship will be so much better if we both overcome this. No her feelings are more important than mine. [color:"red"] [/color]

Whew... Just got home from work and church, im wore out!


Good day overall. This not worrying about her and doing stuff for myself and living decently happy again is wonderful. I took my medicine so I can fall asleep easier so I wont wake up in the middle of the night. Talked to my pastor before I left and he asked about me and her and we talked for a bit and he lifted me up some. I feel wonderful he told me hes proud of me and ive came a long ways. Still no word from her, she has got on AOL today but no message. Oh well, dont bother me really. Another day...:)

Hope all is doing well.

How is Zach today?

Zach! Where are you?

Zach, just wanted to tell you that I give you credit for posting here. We don't get too many WS's and even fewer FWS's.

Thank you both. Tonight I went out to eat with an Old friend after work. Had a great time. She is female yes, shes in a very serious relationship thats going through some rough times also. We both talked about eachothers problems, we've been talking a lot about them. Her and my W know eachother, and my W approved of her going to grab dinner with me tonight.

No I didnt do this to make her jealous or whatever. She understand what im going through and its someone to talk to.I think her and my W are also planning on going out to eat. I dont ask this woman about my W nor do I flirt or such wit her. Just mutual friends. Had a good time, nice to get out of the house.

Im doing just fine, still taking medicine to help me go to sleep but during the day im smiling again and talking and acting like I use to. I love you guys and I really appreciate the help so far and im not going anywhere, im here to change my ways and live a great life and possibly restore my marriage or move on and have a great relationship with someone else in the future!


No text's phone calls or nothing from my W and I. She did talk to this woman I went to eat last night for a while which is odd. It takes a lot to get my W to talk about us.


How are yall doing?

Zach, this is such a "don't do that!" kind of thing.

You probably cannot imagine how many affairs started over conversations where "we were both just discussing the problems we have with our marriage/relationship."

It is one of the primary avenues for vulnerability to unfaithfulness.

I understand and I acknowledge what your concerns are there, she leaves to go to college hours away in a few days. I have my gaurd up like crazy, I have no desire to do so neither does she. Trust me.

Famous last words. You're playing with fire. This is a SERIOUS issue. Stop "hanging out" with other women alone. You MUST get this.

Okay?

K, I understand what your saying we're both very vunerable. Like I said shes going back to college in a couple of days, I wont see her between then, we just grabbed lunch and talked about our situation. She talks to my W about us, and my W is actually going out to eat with her today or tomorrow I think. Thats their business. Still havent heard a word from her. But I can say im doing ok <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.



Hope everyone has a beautiful friday

Zach, going out with other women in a group is fine. But one on one, talking about your relationship issues with someone of the opposite gender is not a good thing.

It inserts another person into the marriage who has no business being there. The issues you have with your wife should remain between the two of you. If you need to speak to someone, make it your therapist. That's what he/she is there for.

PK

Agreed. Wifey got a little jealous I think. But like I said it was an old friend, we never dated or anything. Her and my W use to hang out and her and my W have a longe conversation about our relationship the other night. It was odd cause my W never talks about us, she runs from it. Dunno, but like I said it was a 1 time thing, shes going back to school shortly. It was just Dinner for like a hour and that was it. W knew about it and all. But I totally see where yall are coming from.

"I have my gaurd up like crazy,"

No, Zach, you don't really; because if you did you would be guarding against putting yourself into such an inappropriate and risky situation.

It is NOT appropriate or safe for a married man to spend time alone with an OW, even if she is a good friend, even if your wife doesn't object (doesn't realize the danger), even if you are separated from your wife, even if your wife is seeing an OM, even if you believe that nothing will happen, even if the OW is going away in a few days, even if the OW and your wife are good firends... and especially if you are talking about your relationships with this OW!

"I have no desire to do so neither does she."

You are assuming that will not change - very bad and naive assumption! And beside the point anyway; spending time alone with her, talking about problems in each of your relationships, is in itself WRONG for a married man to do!

Oh, BTW, my guess is the reason your wife doesn't mind is because she plans to point to it as even more rationalization for herself to spend time with OM.

"Trust me."

Apparently you canNOT be trusted to refrain from inappropriately spending time alone with an OW.

So NOPE, on trusting you.

This is one of the most common rationalizations around dude. Just how stupid do you think we are here? It is BECAUSE you have assured yourselves that you are JUST friends, that it's safe to get together and basically complain about your relationships to each other, that it won't be a problem because she is leaving for college in a few days... that you are allowing yourselves to spend this time alone together, right? You think you can handle this situation, that you won't let your guard down? You already did dude!

Then the next thing you know... one thing led to another... and you two really didn't plan on anything more happening...

EVERY time you are alone with an OW you are developing emotional intimacy with her whether or not you realize it.
Did you know it is not even advised to discuss ANYTHING with an OW before discussing it first with yor wife? It may sound extreme, and it's certainly not a well-known or accepted concept in our society, but I have learned from several different adultery-preventing sources that even discussing something as inane as the weather or the news with an OP, IF it's discussed with the OP before or instead of with the spouse, can lead to an EA! AND this doesn't even have to be a discussion that inappropriately takes place in private with the OP. Also, it's especially important for husbands to refrain from talking to OW because statistically and generally they speak less then women do, and don't often repeat what they've already said to one person to second or third person. An audio book I listened to recently actually advised husbands to discuss everything with their wife first because otherwise there's the tendency to get home from work and have nothing left to tell the wife. This inadvertantly builds emotional intimacy with female coworkers while destroying emotional intimacy with the wife because when the wife wants conversation with her husband he literally 'already gave at the office'.

It does NOT have to be intentionally deceptive, obviously inappropriate, or purposely done with the motive of betrayal in order for it to lead to more than you intended, Zach.

BTW, my guess is you are meeting with the OW to make your wife act jealous, as a way to reassure yourself that your wife 'still cares'. I know you have claimed that was not your motive for going out to eat with an OW recently (different OW?)... BUT it was pretty evident that despite your claim otherwise, you did get and enjoy that temporary pay-off from doing so.

Zach, you make noises as if you really are getting it, you seem to sometimes know the right words to post to make it sound as if you are finally getting it... But then you say or do something that reveals that you are still very much in the WS mindset.

You assure us what we think you are up to is not what's going on, don't worry you tell us... but your actions speak much louder than your words. Besides, even your words frequently give you away too. There is no doubt in my mind you did get something positive for yourself as a pay-off for going out with the OW a few days ago. You DID claearly state that you interpreted your wife going 'ballistic' over seeing you and the OW together as proof that your wife 'still cares'. Despite your protestations otherwise, and whether or not you intentionally planned/hoped for that response from your wife, you are obviously playing that game IMHO.

Also, what you are doing is allowing this OW to meet some of your EN's. That is always risky and inappropriate for a married man to be doing.

One step forward - two steps back?

Listen to what PenaltyKill says:

"Zach, going out with other women in a group is fine. But one on one, talking about your relationship issues with someone of the opposite gender is not a good thing."

Zach, you are heading down a road that leads in the wrong direction from where you claim to want to go. Spending time alone with an OW, discussing ANYTHING, let alone your relationship problems, is most definitely not part of ANY marriage recovery program I've ever heard of!!!

As long as you are still a married man AND/OR still hope to reconcile with your BW/WW, then it is most certainly NOT acceptable for you to spend time alone with an OW discussing your relationship with your wife with her!!!!!

Dude, while I acknowledge you have stuck around longer than most WS's do, and at times even appear to have de-fogged enough to be considered a FWS instead of a WS, each time you slip back into foggy WS thinking/acting you destroy what little credibility you worked to build!

And each time you do that it will take even more effort on your part to even regain that lost level of credibility, let alone be trusted above that level.

You tell us to trust you... when you do something that destroys trust, ours and your wife's.

IMHO you are blowing it Zach and whether or not you and this OW end up even more inappropriately involved, your decision to spend time alone with her is something your wife will count against you (if your wife is as smart as I suspect/hope she is).

"Agreed."

So then why do you persist in doing such things, Zach? This sort of thing has already been discussed here often enough, and is part of the MB principles you've read here, so why did/does this happen, Zach?

"Wifey got a little jealous I think."

Ahhh... Although you've denied it, IMHO your wife's jealous reaction is why you do such things, Zach. That's the pay-off for you. Whether it is motivated out of wanting to hurt your wife as revenge, or wanting your wife's reassurance that she 'still cares', or a combination of both motives, IMHO you are doing this for selfish reasons that will destroy what little chance you have of recovering your marriage. You are trading little temporary fixes for the real thing, Zach. Plus you are choosing to hurt your wife in order to make yourself feel better. Not exactly hero out to save his marriage behavior, Zach.

"But like I said it was an old friend, we never dated or anything."

So? Those are just rationalizations for doing something wrong Zach. Again, spending time alone with this OW, AND discussing personal matters with her, in themselves are wrong activities, even if they do not lead to something more.

"Her and my W use to hang out and her and my W have a longe conversation about our relationship the other night. It was odd cause my W never talks about us, she runs from it."

So? Is this another attempt by you to try to monitor or control your wife then?

"Dunno, but like I said it was a 1 time thing, shes going back to school shortly. It was just Dinner for like a hour and that was it."

Little clue Zach: Whenever you try to tell yourself or others that it was a one-time thing, or 'just' something innocent, you are most likely employing rationalizations to do something inappropriate.

Also, if you 'dunno' exactly why you are doing something then do not do it!

"W knew about it and all."

So? Sometimes BS do not fully understand the riskiness of the WS choices. Or maybe your wife wanted some evidence of some current waywardness to justify her spending time alone with OM? Or maybe your wife was testing you to see if you really have changed or not?

"But I totally see where yall are coming from."

You keep telling us that Zach but I've yet to see permanent changes in your thinking and behavior that proves that.

I suspect you are the 'OK I get it now and I promise I won't do it again' variety of WS, while the waywardness just resurfaces again and again. You've already supposedly gotten it numerous times now... yet somehow keep doing inappropriate things that prove you have yet to truly get it.

Correct me if I'm wrong Zach but didn't you post this on Jan 1st:

"Just like a week ago or so when I went out to eat with her friend when I was having that rough day, my W went ballistic! She cares..."

Then I posted to you on Jan 2nd about how you shouldn't have done that.

Then you responded in a way implying you got it and wouldn't do it again...

Then you did it again...

Then you said you got it (again?)...

My guess is you will do it again, and then claim you 'get it' again, but then you'll do it again...

Prove me wrong Zach.

Thanks for those posts Meremortal. I agree with you after reading that, going to eat with OW wasnt a good idea. No more. I didnt realize all the wrongs it was till I read that last post. Thank u for that post.


Ill have no conact with her from now on out. My W did get on AOL and talk for a second for some reason.


sweetlilthang981: hey did u call me at work
Z a C h B 01: no mam
sweetlilthang981: k it wasnt daddy or josh so i thought itmight b idk who it was yall rethe only ones who know my work number
Z a C h B 01: oh
sweetlilthang981: k well sorry i just wanted to ask
Z a C h B 01: k, hope your doing well, talk to u later
sweetlilthang981: yea u to did u have a good time last night
Z a C h B 01: It went well
sweetlilthang981: thats good where did yall go
sweetlilthang981: thats good where did yall go
Z a C h B 01: Henry James in Winston
sweetlilthang981: cool deal soo
sweetlilthang981: shes datin charlie right
Z a C h B 01: yup
sweetlilthang981: thats cool do u like her ?
Z a C h B 01: no, im married, and shes in a relationship. It was just a one time thing.

Am I reading this correctly? You went out with OW?