Hi SC,



There is not a quick fix for this, but there ARE a lot of steps you can take from your end to remove yourself from the cycle.

One thing I would really like to see you do is to take some time to learn about ownership and personal responsiblity and about the property lines that I mentioned because it will be useless for you to practice boundary enforcement without a full understanding of what is your property and what is someone else's.

A firm grasp on boundaries is a very powerful tool. Having that information can enable you to get the things you want for your life and avoid the things and behaviors that you don't want in your life.

Are you game?

SC,

What if feeling his pain isn't respectful? What if knowing his fear and pain is?

What if he isn't throwing it back in your face, doesn't believe he's a victim?

Would that change your resulting feelings, from a different perception?

You may desire to feel his feelings so he'll feel yours...and if he feels yours, he won't cause such incredible pain.

Does that protect you in anyway, really, from pain?

What if the biggest issue is not in his thinking, rather, yours? What if when he isn't transparent, you state what's different and why right now...your stuff. Then you state your next boundary enforcement, if he chooses not to act transparently, you will...what?

Do you act transparently with him, btw?

You're working on a very important part of marriage right SC...where you owning you're upset, your own feelings...he may still here he is the cause, control and cure...very much what he perceived and believed before.

Doesn't mean you choose to believe it...you're sharing. Stating "I'm upset right now. I traced it to my fear kicking in not knowing where you were, if you were coming home. Old stuff from the A. I can feel it in two minutes...and then you walk in the door."

The chemicals released inside your body persist for about 20 minutes...reasonable you are upset even after he walks in the door or calls...because you've got chemical aftermath. It goes away. Own your own chemicals...own your trigger, your fears, your pain...sharing isn't putting anything on someone else...it's owning your stuf aloud...sure helps you with experiencing your own feelings as valid.

Hear his stuff...listen and repeat to confirm or clarify you've heard correctly. This helps to nail down your DJs, your perception filter's automatic assumptions...and share what you find. When you say aloud, "I'm getting that you feel I'm blaming you for what I feel right now. I'm feeling it. My fear, my stuff."

Do you thank him for sharing? Do you thank him for every action he takes that is different, transparent? His presence?

When he doesn't tell you his plans, and you trigger...state the trigger. "I feel ambushed right now (whatever it is you feel). Thrown off balance (caught unaware)."

See where your choice of expectations may be unreasonable, in part...if he has a varied schedule, check to see if there is one half-hour flex time in there that wasn't part of the A, wasn't an attack on your marriage...and see if you believe by eliminating something you'll feel more protected.

I found I drew boundaries with a thick crayon into absolutes...because I was learning boundaries. Our MC began working with me on finding just my part (not the all or nothing), and if I truly believed that not knowing what my DH was doing for 15 minutes to a half hour was realistic in resuming or starting another A.

I narrowed my broad stroke and surprisingly, my DH held himself to calling if he was going to be later (or going in earlier) than planned...over time, his calls became HIS habit...and I focused on my expectations (found some sneaky ones like after recovery, every day would be smooth, placid, ripple-free).

Not a very reasonable expectation, I believe.

Do you fall all the way to the wall when you trigger or feel upset? I don't know how to explain this...I would perceive DH's resistance, condenmation, that victim-you're-crazy DJ...and it would feel like I flew across the room and hit the wall...from shock to despair in a single breath. Working with MC, I learned how to experience shock without going to the wall...fear without it being total loss/failure...first it was 3/4 of the way, then half, eventually just six inches off center...not dependent on what my DH did or didn't do.

I worked my triggers through in front of DH. Do you check his cell when he's not transparent, in front of him? Do you own you're doing it for yourself? Did you have blind trust pre-A and now you're looking for that again?

LA

I do not think i follow either of you (frozen and LA).

I do not understand setting a boundary i guess. I tell him it bothers me and makes me think of the A when he is late or goes in early and does not let me know.

Because his job is construction how can he possibly be working when it is dark out they need light to work. So it is hard for me to believe he is being truthful when his works plans change so often.

Yesterday is a perfect example, he called me at work at around 1:30 or so to discuss ride arragements for our children. He told me he would probably beat me home or only be slightly after me getting home. Ok no problem i will see you when you get there. So (for this time anyway which is not always) he called back at about 4:45 and said that things had changed and the crew was going to continue to work. He did not know how long so he did not know what time he would be home (i thanked him for calling me and letting me know). I then went about my business of getting our children whree they needed to be and went home.

Low and behold there he was at home already. He then said that there was a problem and they ended up leaving right after i talked to him the second time.

I am sorry but yes i instantly got upset by this. How can your job possibly change that much in a two hour period. It was not that way pre A. He was usually coming home really close to the time he said he would.

Now did i jump all over him NO. Did i tell him it bothered me NO. Why Becasue i have told him a hundred times why should i have to tell him 101 times.

He has really never considered my feelings in our whole M but he has so many other good qualities that i let this one go. But now that he has had an A i do not feel like i can anymore because i feel he needs to think about my feelings.

This statement about your marriage is very telling. What would you like for him to do?

The biggest issue is his TRANSPARENCY and his thinking that he can act the sameas pre A. He lost the trust to be able to act the same as pre A in my book. He should call me if he is going to be one minute later than he originally planned. And he should tell me the night before or as soon as he knows if he has to go into work early and things like that.

The first step is to banish the word SHOULD from your vocabulary.

Second is to learn to ask respectfully for what you want without requiring him to agree with you that he SHOULD or that it is reasonable.

Now using logic... he CAN behave exactly the same way he did before his A if he wants to. You can't control that.

Part of the reason that he HAD an A in the first place was that his environment supported it.

He was ABLE to carry on a second life without a collision much much too easily.

Now that you have gotten good and burned by that you are [rightly] more aware and more wary of that nonSCfriendly part of his life.

My H had to leave his career in order for me to be able to rebuild trust. Even though I wanted to that large amount of unaccounted for time and unpredictable schedual made it impossible for me to build trust without basically just going into blind denial. [He was in the military and would frequently have to leave the state on trips that sometimes lasted weeks during which time I had NO idea what was going on and no way to verify what I was being told].

Now a really important part of me communicating that need was to really REALLY own my own feelings and needs and wants without trying to coerce him via manipulation.

ANYTIME the word should is used it is a manipulation.

You will shoot yourself in the foot if you try to SHAME him into wanting to give you what you need.

"You have been such a lousy lowdown rotten lying bastid that I can't even trust you to go to work" is going to incite rebellion.

"I have a real problem with this unpredictable schedual. I feel anxious and angry and suspicious and foolish all at the same time when I can't rely on or predict what you will be doing any given day.

I need something more regular so that I can build that trust and so we don't have to keep going around this mountain of you feeling unjustly accused and me feeling suspicious and resentfull."

That is where something like POJA would be used...to negotiate solutions.

Why hide them, your feelings, anymore? Own them, say them, let them go.

I am still in the depths of working on this myself, but it's working for me.

For instance, just last night, my FWH was wearing a shirt that the OW bought for him while they were together.

When my FWH came home, after the A, he wore that shirt one day; I asked him about the shirt, because I thought it was nice, he said it was a gift from OW for Christmas. I let that fester with me from then until NOW; SIX MONTHS, because I was hiding my feelings.

Last night, I told him that when he wears that shirt, I feel sad; I see the A when I see that shirt. I told him that I do not believe that he wears this shirt to hurt me intentionally, but it none the less DOES hurt me.

I didn't state that he had to burn it, throw it away, even stop wearing it. I just told him what the problem was and how it affected me. I don't expect anything. In the end, it's my problem to deal with. If that shirt is a deal breaker, then I will state such, but for now, it's more of a reminder of the A, a trigger, if you will.

Maybe my FWH now KNOWS what I feel and will be considerate of that; that's his decision to make, not mine.

If you reveal to your FWH that you need transparency at a certain level, and are specific (I need you to call me immediately if ANYTHING changes, not hours later, not minutes later, but immediately, for example) to feel safe, then you have done your part. It's up to him what he will do.

Ok S_C I will start responding here...I don't have time today to read your thread because it is our DD's 8th Bday and I soon have to start getting ready...But I WILL read it...I really want you to get the help you need...I hear your pain loud and clear in your posts...I don't want that for you-I wish I could take it away...I can't...You and your husband CAN together...That's where I and others, want to help you get to...

And why should now be any different? Well I assume (dangerous I know-lol) that you want a NEW marriage now...A better marriage...One that is affair proof all around...One that is fulfilling to you both...THAT is what applying MB principles in your marriage can provide...

Hiding your feelings from your husband for 24 years IS a problem for you both...It causes built up resentment in you and likely anger that comes out sideways...

Mrs. W

Well i have tried that. I NEVER EVER tell him he should or should not do anything. I tell him I am not his mother he needs to make those decisions on his own. And i let him know how i feel about the particular thing we are discussing.

I have told him that i am not comfortable with his ever changing schedule. He says that we have to live and any field i get into will not have a set schedule. He has NEVER had a job that he had a set schedule in our whole M. It has been that way at every company he has worked.

I don't know if I missed it in your thread, do you guys have any children?

Well i have tried that. I NEVER EVER tell him he should or should not do anything. I tell him I am not his mother he
Just because you aren't saying it to HIM doesn't mean you aren't saying it.

You are saying it to YOU and that belief affects your view of everything.

Let's not invalidate his position.

He's RIGHT...you DO have to live...so do YOU have any ideas for how to solve the problem?

Could he take classes to qualify for a different type of job?

Look at the root issues.

What are his concerns about changing things around....we know what yours are but what are his?

What does he say his reasons for not wanting to do something different or do the same thing differently are?

What specifically do you want from him? What makes you feel safe and what would it take for him to feel excited and enthusiastic about doing those things for you?

Yes we have three children (20, 18, 16)

Just because you aren't saying it to HIM doesn't mean you aren't saying it.

You are saying it to YOU and that belief affects your view of everything.

Let's not invalidate his position.

He's RIGHT...you DO have to live...so do YOU have any ideas for how to solve the problem?

Could he take classes to qualify for a different type of job?

Look at the root issues.

What are his concerns about changing things around....we know what yours are but what are his?

What does he say his reasons for not wanting to do something different or do the same thing differently are?

What specifically do you want from him? What makes you feel safe and what would it take for him to feel excited and enthusiastic about doing those things for you? [/quote]

Again i am confuseed by this. His reasons for not leaving his job is that he likes his job and all of his skills would put him in a field where he would not have set hours.

He is 50 years old and not very likely to change his profession at this time in his life nor is that what i really want.

My whole M has been his way. He has very rarely done anything to make me feel safe and i have been alright with that until now. I did not need to feel safe i guess. But now i do and i do not know what the answers are. I do not know how to feel safe. ****** I do not know much of anything anymore.

This A has made me a different person than i was and not in a good way.

I do not know how to feel safe.

BINGO! ding ding ding!

That is exactly right and I was trying to show you that I had the same problem.

I had previously been just fine and dandy with a lifestyle that literally invited an affair.

Our former degree of IB [independent behavior] is astounding to me now. I no longer say..how could this happen to me but rather..gee why did it take so long?
The hard part comes later when it ISN'T ok any longer BUT your whole life is built around a no longer ok frame.

I had to say the world doesn't work the way I thought it did. My expectations were flawed and not in line with reality. And now i don't trust my perceptions and I don't know WHAT to do to feel safe again.

That is a starting point. Recognise that you got bit by a shark in a river when they were only supposed to be in oceans and now you are quite suspicious of swimming pools and bath tubs as well.

That is a healthy reaction to having to re-establish the difference between what is safe and what is not after a crisis.

Ok so where do i go from here then?

I think YOUR decision to make is, "Why would I want to stay with a man who would cruelly rub his affair in my face by wearing a shirt that his girlfriend gave him? Why would I want to stay with a man who would be that enormously disrespectful to me?"

If you will not stand up for yourself, but will only meekly stand there and burn inside because he's doing this, you have succeeded ONLY in teaching him that he can be as cruel and disrespectful to you as he wants and you will just take it.

HE WILL SEE NOTHING PAST THIS. HE WILL TAKE YOUR SILENCE AS TACIT APPROVAL AND AS A MESSAGE THAT'S HE'S NOT REALLY HURTING YOU SO IT'S OKAY WITH YOU THAT HE DOES THIS.

You want him to "decide to be considerate of you" and will do nothing except inwardly seethe with resentment and hurt if he doesn't?

How about you refuse to spend one second with a man who COULD decide to be so extremely INconsiderate of you?

Geez, even Mulan never tolerated a sitch like that one. That shirt would have been used to scrub the toilet and then mailed to her at THEIR workplace.

He used to have a horrible habit of dating his female co-workers. His business trips were nightmares for me. The company encouraged this and paid for everything. I used to try and try and beg and plead and reason with him and ASK him oh so politely not to do this.

He did it anyway.

Finally, after

(1) he went on a New York business trip with his fav hot piece of *** (who works for him) and planned an evening for them at a fancy restaurant and *Spamalot* before going back to the same hotel, and

(2) he went on a Chicago trip with the same POA and they spent the evening in a fancy sake-and-sushi bar before going back to the same hotel, and

doing all this with me asking him as politely as possible to please not do this stuff anymore and "wanting him to want to be respectful of me" -

I finally told him that I would NEVER AGAIN humiliate myself into the dirt by ASKING MY HUSBAND not to go on a date with another woman.

I told him that on the next trip, I hoped EVERY ONE of his favorite girls was there.

That I hoped he went out with all of them and that EVERYBODY saw them, since he's so proud of this.

I told him I hoped he had a GREAT TIME doing this, since it's clearly what he wanted to do and I was completely sick of getting in his way.

When he left for the next trip, I took the phone off the hook the whole time he was gone.

THAT'S what it took for him to knock it off. And I still watch very, very closely.

In short - you have to earn respect. Sometimes, depending on the WS in question, you have to earn it the hard way. You don't get respect just because it would be nice to have or because you're really such a nice person.

You get respect by doing whatever you have to do to earn it.

Please think about this. Your husband is massively disrespecting you every time he wears that shirt and you are massivly disrespecting YOURSELF every time you just sit there and take it.
Mulan

Thanks Mulan but that was not me who's H wore the shirt. I would not tolerate that either and would have said something.

The thing to do is to learn what boundaries are and how they affect you and how to use them.

The best book for that imo is called "boundaries" by cloud and townsend. I believe they also have one called "boundaries in marriage".

Then work on your attitude/approach to marriage via "Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders". Yours posts sound renterish. Renters are miserable people because they believe in sacrifice as a currency. This will help you understand the difference and see your behavior more clearly.

Then work on communication skills. YOUR communication skills.

If he is behaving defensively that is your cue that he is feeling attacked. It could be the result of the methods being employed.

What might help you is to study the descriptions of the love busters [they are posted on the site] and go back through a few of your posts that are mostly you talking about him.

See if you can find your own LBs [love busters].

See if you can find DJs, SDs, AOs etc.

Try not to empathise with yourself while you do it or make judgements about whether it is a valid complaint or not.

For the purposes of this excercise it doesn't matter...just see if you can FIND them.

Then post and tell us what you saw.

I know i make a lot of DJ's because he won't talk about things. But none of these things are SPOKEN to him. I try very hard not to do that to him.

I will read these books and try but i still think he should be putting forth more effort than he is (I know another LB or DJ or whatever).

If you have had the habit of picking up the slack or pulling for both of you when he drops his ball then he probably ISN'T pulling his weight.

And you know what to do about that?

Learn how to let the ball drop when he drops it.

And that will TERRIFY you which is why you have been willing to do it all this time.

So right now I would guess you as a renter and him as a freeloader.

He does what comes naturally and nithing else...and you have been asking him to be a renter like you.

But that's not healthy either and he can SEE the win/lose and the sacrifice and he [rightly] doesn't want any part of it.

The best quality is to BOTH be buyers and the funniest part of all imo is that FREELOADERS have an easier time becoming buyers than renters do because neither freeloaders nor buyers value sacrifice.