If you are a Renter, your methods are enabling and discouraging your spouse from becoming a Buyer.

Remove enabling and discourging behaviors and it's possible that a Freeloader might make the choice to BECOME a Buyer.

The primary reason for this is that a Renter's method is to sacrifice - not only do they sacrifice but when facing a conflict with their spouse, often they are asking their spouse to sacrifice.

If you ask a Freeloader to sacrifice, they will bristle and become angry and/or defensive.

If a Renter can approach a Freeloader with a different objective - a win for both instead of the black and white thinking that one of them needs to sacrifice in order to resolve the conflict, it is possible that the Freeloader would also adopt this approach because they are no longer being asked to sacrifice.

Often THAT is the real problem that Freeloaders have with POJA...that their Renter pitches the idea to them when the Freeloader can clearly see that the way POJA is being presented to them still involves sacrifice on their part.



By definition, a Freeloader DOESN'T sacrifice and resents any request to do so.

What is wrong with agreeing that they should have their way? You want things YOUR way, don't you?



Funny that you should use black/white as an example because this is precisely the kind of black and white thinking that prevents a negotiation from even getting off the ground.

The example that you described is not a negotiation. It is merely two spouses stating their BEGINNING points in negotiation.

There was absolutely no negotiating taking place in that example. I can give you a hypothetical example of a negotiation using your hypothetical issue, though, but I'm being pestered to go to the store to by craft supplies by my H and stepson. I'll come back in just a little while and post again about that.



So your stance is that both partners should give without expecting anything in return.

That is an excellent definition of...

SACRIFICE.

When my husband left me, I had 2 little boys and I was pregnant with our daughter.

I was furious that he got to walk out and live the fun fun fun party party life.

*I* was forced (so I saw it) to stay home and pick up the pieces and care for our children full time.

"It's SO UNFAIR" is what I screamed at my Alanon sponsor one night.

Poor BR, so good, so virtuous, so sacrificing. My husband was SO BAD, so so selfish.

I was right. He was wrong. I was good. He was BAD.

This was not a new situation to me. I had this attitude our entire marraige up until then.

I did the cooking, the cleaning, the kids and he had all the fun. I sacrificed and sulked over his selfishness. I let him know it too. I nagged, I blamed, I whined and I pointed out how BAD he was every chance I could.

I got to feel GOOD because he was BAD.

I got to feel superior and I got to boost my self esteem at his expense.

So, there I was, late that night, screaming and crying on the phone to my sponsor.

And she told me, "BR, you are so not a victim.

You are BOTH responsible for those children.

He chooses to avoid his responsibililty.

YOU, also, could choose to do the same thing."

I whined back, "I have no choice, he left so I am forced to stay!"

And she quickly pointed out that there are MANY children, who have lost BOTH parents because BOTH parents choose to abandon them.

She said, "BR, you are not a victim. Your husband is forcing nothing upon you. YOU CHOOSE THIS."

And at that point, my perspective shifted.

I no longer saw myself as a victim of a freeloader.

I saw myself as an adult making my own choices in my life.

At that point, I began to treat my husband as an adult that made choices. Did I like his choices? No. But I no longer saw myself as forced to sacrifice because he was a freeloading jerk.

My self esteem became based in MY GOOD CHOICES instead of HIS LACK OF GOOD CHOICES.

Fast forward, months into recovery, where I no longer saw myself as a virtuous sacrificer.

My husband no longer felt defensive and under assault. He no longer felt that he would LOSE and I would WIN. He began to help me around the house, because he felt like part of a team. Respectful requests were no longer wrapped in self righteous resentment, and he no longer had to keep his walls up against me.

My husband shops, cooks, drives kids, takes them to the doctor and does all kinds of things now, that he never did before.

What changed? ME.

Okay, the negotiation starting points have been stated:

Mr. Black wants a black car.
Ms. White (she chose to keep her maiden name for career reasons) wants a white car.

This is typically the point at which one or both spouses would attempt to resolve the conflict by trying to change the others' starting point - using techniques such as invalidation, DJ's, guilt trips.

If one of them is a Renter, they will try to manipulate by reminding their spouse how much they have sacrificed in the past.

But Buyers would never use those tactics because those methods are destructive and disrespectful and they don't make negotiations unpleasant.

A Buyer negotiation would look something like this...

Mr. Black: I've wanted a black car since I was a teenager! A good buddy of mine had a black car and I always thought it looked sharp.

Ms. White: (would enjoy hearing her H reminisce and would give him her undivided attention and share the moment with him) I have to admit, black cars DO look sharp. My concern with buying a black car is that they often look dirty so quickly.

Mr. Black: It would be worth it to me to have a black car. I would even be willing to take responsibility for taking it to the car wash weekly. How would you feel about that?

Ms. White: (teasing lightheartedly) Tempting...very tempting. But the white car has a GPS system and that would be so useful for me. I get lost all the time!

Mr. Black: I can see how useful a GPS would be for you. How would you feel about asking the salesman if the GPS option is available for the black car?

Ms. White: Honestly, the GPS system is the main reason I want to go with the white car.

Mr. Black: So a GPS would sell you on the black car?

Ms. White: No.

Mr. Black: No????

Ms. White: No. But a GPS AND weekly car washes would definitely be cause for enthusiasm!

Mr. Black: You drive a hard bargain, my love. You've got yourself a deal!

I went to a 2 day management training class at work last week.

It was on the concept of "Principled Negotiation" as developed by the Harvard Negotiation Project - and I think it complements the concepts of the POJA very well.

The idea is that in day to day business, we need to avoid bargaining. Bargaining is often a relationship killer and results in a win/lose outcome. Bargaining means withholding information from the other party to gain an upper hand. It means getting as much for yourself at the other person's expense.

The purpose of Principled Negotation is to strengthen relationships and problem solve in a manner that results in a WIN for both sides.

Of course this class was focused on business relationships - but it is absolutely true for marriage and other personal relationships.

In principled negotiation, one does not bargain with positions (white car vs black car) but rather focuses on the interests of either party. The parties then work togther to problem solve TOGETHER to reach a solution that satisfies both.

Sounds like POJA huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

People unfamiliar with POJA often are very skeptical of the idea that a couple reach enthusiastic agreement - and yet - this very concept is being used international negotiations.

If it works in business and it works in politics, why on earth would it not work in marriage?

The book my class used Getting to YES - Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In might provide a better insight for people who have a hard time thinking about this concept within marriage. The best part is - you don't need BOTH people to understand or use these technique, it only requires one person to do it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

EXACTLY BR!!!!



I love the way that is worded! I think it explains it well.

I see couples viewing POJA as an either/or, which when framed that way, I can see why they would see the only method for resolving the conflict being to change the other's starting point or position.

The thing is, though, that you can't change what someone wants. If you manage to actually get the other party to change their position or starting point, all you have really succeeding in doing is getting them to agree to sacrifice. It's invalidating and it's bullying. It's controlling.

And focusing on the INTERESTS...that is where the resolution lies. That is what enables couples to win/win and what begins the brick-laying process that I mentioned previously.

With a string of successfull POJA's under your build, each POJA being built of both spouses interests...THAT is what eventually achieves the completed "house" - a house built up of the interests of both spouses that they each find incredibly rewarding.

Thanks for posting that. It's great stuff!

I found the book on Amazon. I'd like to purchase it.

Frog,

I think this answers your question more succintly. If I understand correctly you were saying that you don't see how the conflict could be resolved without one spouse sacrificing.

And the answer is that buying a black car was not the INTEREST of Mr. Black. It was simply the vehicle or method he was using in order to accomplishing satisfying his interest. What he REALLY wanted was a car that he thought looked cool.

Ms. White's interest was not a white car. Her real interest was "perks" that would make her life easier.

When this couple was able to get to the point that they were able to identify each of their real interests in the matter, without demands, disrespect or any attempts to invalidate the other's desires, they were in a better position to brainstorm solutions.

Unfortunately, that's precisely where a lot of couples get stuck.

It's impossible to investigate and understand someone's real interests if you're busy trying to change their starting point - in action or thought and this is the dynamic that I believe is responsible for the conflict appearing so black/white, either/or.

When problem solving and confict resolution is approached using this method...seeking out the interests of the other spouse, suddenly TONS of options and ways to achieve mutual satisfaction become available.

I feel as if I'm playing an unwilling devil's advocate here, sorry!

It seems obvious that a Buyer/Buyer POJA'ing strategy is the best way to work the marriage. However, most of us here are not in that enviable position. I'd guess that by the time we get here, we're stuck in a hot sticky mess of tangled resentments, well-drilled ways to defend against the other, justifiable fear of showing vulnerability, terror of the other's likely reprisals, distrust of the other's motives...in other words, a very unpropitious environment from which to implement Buyer/Buyer.

If one partner starts implementing a Buyer strategy, the possibility is that the other spouse might clean up their act and start responding in a Buyerly way. But my guess is that it's more likely that the non-Buyer spouse will resist the pull with every nerve and sinew, so that unless the would-be Buyer has serious stamina, the couple will gradually fall back into old habits. Sticking with easy-living Freeloader tactics is much more comfortable than building up the muscle to negotiate needs in a mature, Buyerly fashion.

So it's all very well to point to a perfect idealised scenario - and it's certainly good to see a template for a better way to conduct relations - but the challenge for most of us is how to get there from a truly lousy starting position. Holding to a Buyer position for a long time, in the teeth of rebellion, resentment and sabotage, is a tough task.

Getting from Renter/Freeloader to Buyer/Buyer is not likely to be brought about in some miraculous overnight way by a change in the attitude of one spouse. It's likely to be a long struggle, with recurring dynamics and patterns of behaviour. Those are likely to be the greatest barrier to achieving Buyer/Buyer.

Wouldn't this discussion more profitably focus on the dynamics of holding to Buyer behaviour in the face of a frustrating response, than suggesting that all you need in order to reach The Solution is to know what it looks like?

TA

This black car/white car scenario is beginning to really annoy me.

In this idealised example, both parties have a legitimate 'interest', and are able to be honest with themselves about what that interest is.

In my limited experience, it seems to me that it's common for the 'interest' to be both illegitimate and denied. The desire for a black car may well arise, not from the stated desire to look cool, but from an awareness that the spouse has a visceral hatred of black cars, and a subterranean desire to frustrate/damage that spouse. No amount of negotiating interests can resolve this. All that will happen is that the white-car spouse will offer to change the spec to any colour of the rainbow except black, and the black-car spouse will keep shrugging and saying 'Black is cool. No other colour is cool for me.'

Negotiating fairly and honestly requires great trust on both sides. I wouldn't have said that great trust between marital partners is in huge supply round this forum, would you? Nor should it be. So how do we get there?

A marriage is a stew of deeply personal emotions, not a business meeting or an international conference.

TA

I'm getting the impression that you view the Freeloader as the problem in the marriage. I disagree. The Freeloader actually more closely resembles a Buyer than a Renter.



That's a hefty DJ. Do you really believe it is comfortable to have someone pushing you to sacrifice at every turn and judging you when you won't? It sounds pretty stressful to me.



And what is it exactly that you are asserting that Freeloaders resent? POJA? Win/win?

If a Freeloader has been dealing with a Renter, then the Freeloader has been subjected to AO, DJ's and other manipulative tactics designed to try to force them to sacrifice. Who wouldn't resent that?

If they are not being asked or expected to sacrifice...what is there to resent?



I agree.



The Renter's struggle is often with themselves.

And yes, I do think it would be profitable to focus on holding the Renter to Buyer methods. It's the Renter that is the cog in the wheel at this point. Possible when that cog is removed, it would either result in success or highlight the Freeloader as the problem. Until the cog is removed, there isn't any way to know that.

If there is a method other than showing a Renter the target, I'd love suggestions. Could you be more specific?



Ahhhh...the "he only wants that to make me mad" defense.

If this occurs during negotiation, it would completely halt the process because it would make it impossible to explore the other's interests, much less your own.



That isn't negotiation because it isn't looking past initial starting points.



No, it isn't in huge supply here. Has it occured to you that this very dynamic played a very big role in that?




It's an analogy. And the techniques can apply to relationships of all types.

So how do you get there?

Stop arguing with me and try it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

TA ~ I don't know about your experience in business, but I can tell you that emotions are anything but detached from business. Look at any professional business training curriculum and you will find scores upon scores of classes dealing with every aspect of human emotions and interactions in business.

I've certainly experienced some very serious emotional triggers in the corporate environment.

Human beings are human beings and emotions are part of the mix no matter the setting.

I work in a highly professional environment and I can tell you that emotions and interests are no different than in personal life. In fact in some ways it is worse - you can't just write people off if you can't get along (there is no lovely Ignore Button) - you are forced to figure out how to work together.

And don't tell me that there are no emotions in international politcs! Could you describe the Cuban missle crisis as not highly emotional? Or how about the emotions of 9/11? Or the Cold War?

I am very well versed in the concept of POJA, and I can assure you that sitting in that business class, the concepts were precisely the same.

We were told to be transparent, to explore interests, brainstorm options and to negotiate until the interests of both parties were satisfied.

Its the same exact concept as POJA.

Obviously, if you don't trust someone, negotiation is going to be very difficult. But if you think a Freeloader is simply going to just take advantage of a Buyer - then why are you married at all?

The problem, as I see it, is the Renter often believes him or herself to be the Good Spouse, the Right Spouse.

This belief makes it very hard for a Renter to address his or her own contributions to the downfall of the relationship.

Froz, good stuff. Delineating that qualifying as a Buyer wasn't based on the level of commitment to marriage, but rather was based on the way a person relates was something I had not grokked. So, your input there was eye-opening for me.



This is where I get a bit derailed. Freeloaders, while unwilling to do anything they aren't already inclined to do, seem to have little hesitation in expecting that their partner should. Freeloading partners who don't make sacrifices in the relationship, but who expect their spouses to do so, while wielding the same weapons (AOs, DJs, etc.) to get what they want. Have others observed this?

I have indeed observed this.



I guess one of the points I am trying to make is that it matters not what the Freeloader expects. There is no requirement that the Renter comply.

In fact, the Renter who sacrifices and complies with this demand is only serving to enable the Freeloader to continue Freeloading.

That is precisely why I would love to see these Renters stop sacrificing. If they stop, it removes the enabling and it's possible that the Freeloader would step up to the plate.

What do you think keeps the Renters from making that choice?

My thoughts are initially - ignorance. If I only had a magic wand that I could bandy about and transfer decades of experience and wisdom back on the younger me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The roots of the marital sacrifice thing can get muddy. I don't know (unless I'm deluding myself) that there was an overriding sense of "I'll do this so that later you'll do that". I know for me there is/was a mix of "do unto others" and the Christianized encouragement to not be selfish and self-centered. So, the desire to "do the right thing" as much as I could determine what was right and have the where-with-all to do it.

Eventually - fear. Fear that to keep pushing for those things that were important to me to more fully live would result in the total demise of my marriage and the destruction of stability for children.

I have a little different take.

I think it's control and fear.

Would you flesh that out some more?

Froz, why are you assuming that an individual has to be 'the problem'? I'm certainly not. The point I'm making is that 'the problem' is not simply about the attitude of either spouse, but about the ways in which each affects the other. If one spouse changes their attitude, it will probably disrupt the system, but the attitude change has to take into account the strongly self-protecting nature of systems.

My understanding of your point throughout this thread is that a Renter position is damaging to a marriage, and you're trying to alert people to the possibility that they themselves exhibit Renter behaviour, and are therefore contributing to the dynamics of the problems in the marriage. Is that right?

I don't disagree with that. I also agree that unless the Renter attitudes are identified and reworked, there is little chance of systemic change.

However, I part company with you in several areas.

The most important is in the assumptions you're making about the nature of Buyer, Renter and Freeloader, as if each person could be confidently labelled in totality by one term or the other. The reality is more likely to be that we are each a mixture of Buyer, Renter and Freeloader behaviours, with a leaning towards one or the other. The labels are a convenient model for Dr. Harley to convey a concept, but, like most theoretical models, they leave out detail in order to get the basic idea across.

As I see it, in each situation, Spouse A is likely to be relating to Spouse B from Position B,R or F. And the position may well be different depending on the situation, and the circumstances around it. Harley's model suggests that there is a prevalent position, which is a good starting point for investigation. But assuming that the label can be applied to the whole of the person leads to dangerous generalisations like


There may well be many couples where a 100% Renter spouse pushes their partner to sacrifice 'at every turn'. But I bet there are far more where a spouse expects sacrifice in some things, and is perfectly benevolent in others, and vice-versa - where neither is very sure whether they or their partner could be classed a Renter or a Freeloader.

Discussing a theoretical model is excellent, as long as we remember that we're using it to derive general and approximated principles which must then be adapted to actual conditions.


TA

Certainly the freeloader is willing to enjoy the fruits of a renter's sacrifice.

But did the freeloader demand or expect that sacrifice?

I doubt it.

I know that much of my sacrifice was my own choice. I wanted certain things to be certain ways - MY - way. So I sacrificed. I expected that I would receive gratitude from my spouse and reciprocation.

I assumed that my way was the best way. And I felt unappreciated when my husband didn't just jump on board and sacrifice with me. It never occured to me that he had different priorities that were JUST as valuable as mine.

Alot of my husband's freeloading came not from selfishness, but from flat out conflict avoidance. He just didn't want to fight with me over what was important in any given situation - so he was willing to just sit on his hands and watch me tie myself in knots.

When I started taking his opinions and values into consideration - he was far more enthusiastic about participation.

Wow! This thread has taken some giant leaps since Tuesday! Cool stuff.

I have to say, TA makes some very interesting points. I can't say that I am 100% renter. In some places, I can see being a buyer, in some a freeloader. If I were to categorize myself, RIGHT NOW, in general, I'm a renter.

I recognize more sacrifice after DS was born, because I was continuing to do all that I had, plus taking on the bulk of the childcare, as well as scheduling our NEW existence, AND still making efforts to spend quality time with my FWH. I did these things because I thought that was what my role was. It took about two years of this to begin to feel resentful.

This keeps me rooted in renterdom. If I ask for something, is his answer for real, or is he renting and sacrificing, too, only to hold this over my head later?

Life with two renters? How does that work? Not well, I would think.

I agree that something's gotta give. I agree that I AM aware of being a renter, and how to make steps to become a buyer. I'm aware that you cannot know what will happen (if the freeloader will shift to buyer status, if the renter will do the same), but you won't know until you try.

This is where I'm having a hard time, shifting how I think.

Hey froz!

Great thread, were you just waiting for me to pop in...?!?!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Bwahahaha!! I LOL'ed at the last line here...I LOVE it! That is me to a "t". (Hey, I'm a poet and didn't know it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

Seriously, this example is GREAT, I am so glad you posted it.

My question is if your spouse is not a Buyer and doesn't even like POJA, how does a Renter (ahem~me~ahem), get your spouse to put full effort into POJA?

You may not have to answer that, you might answer it in the rest of the thread, so I will go back to reading and come back later...

I think this is a good thread for me. I am a Renter, and I need help.

I would be interested in the answer to MF's question.

I have approached many of my recent interactions about 'things' that I would want or like to do.

My spouse is not interested at much interaction with me at all (from his mouth, I'm not assuming anything).

I don't know if we're even ready for anything close to POJA, but I think it's important that I learn these things, and implement in ALL facets of my life.