Oh, I totally get it. My FWH hasn't said anything about his A's as of yet, not anything of substance. I still believe my FWH has a lot of work to do on himself in order to FACE the TRUTH.

He has NEVER used the words fog, or anything of the sort, though. I would definitely get snarky with him if he uttered these words in DEFENSE of his A's. Oh yeah, snarkily snark snark.

Ahhhh...but sometimes, in early recovery they DO try to mitigate and defend their actions. It's part of the de-fogging process.

Getting snarky doesn't behoove you. Having empathy yourself and understanding that it's part of the process of recovery IS more important. Calling it "fogtalk" helps you label it and IGNORE IT because it CAN be hurtful if you take in everything a recently wayward spouse says. It takes time to get from A to B and if you do it TOGETHER with compassion and understanding you WILL end up "recovered" a lot faster.

WS's need their spouses love, understanding and empathy to get there. You CAN assist with the process or be an impediment to such process.

Your choice.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- Since I don't know what you mean by "snarky" I am not saying YOU aren't being loving and compassionate. Merely stating my thoughts.

Oh, I have been more and more loving and compassionate as the days and months pass (now 6 months in).

I was merely stating that there is no DEFENSE for his A's. HE had them for whatever selfish reasons. In my case, my FWH has yet to talk to me in any depth about his A's, which does cause resentment to build, but I am learning to let go, and accept him as he is RIGHT NOW.

AS I am the only person in my household applying MB principles, it is taking longer to recover. I do understand where Krazy is coming from, but I don't condone the anger, especially if it is targeted toward BS's on this forum.

You are right, it is not in MY M best interest for me to NOT think with a compassionate, loving mind. More often than not, these days, I come from a place of love, but will not deny that I am a work in progress.

Well unfortunately we do not see things the same way. I have been very supporting of my FWH in our recovery as a matter of fact i have done most of the work. I can forgive and even kind of understand the A. It kind of was a good thing it made us see things that were missing if that is possible.

But I will NEVER EVER EVER forgive or forget the hurtful things he did and said to me during the A. I think they have to remain there as a reminder to make sure we both stay on track in our M.

I think it's unhealthy if you USE his behavior during his A against him at any point in recovery. HE is who he is NOW, not THEN. REmembering how your M got to the point that EITHER ONE OF YOU was susceptible to an A is more important, IMO.

I would just seethe in anger if I tried to apply my WH's behavior to who he is now. That halts our progress, in my M. It causes unnecessary guilt, and takes the BALANCE out of your M. How can you really recover if one of you constantly feels guilty and controlled?

Viola...the source of your resentment. Falling into old patterns?

You should not be doing most of the work. You should not be "sacrificing" and your ENs should not be going unmet.

I hear a lack of RESPECT in your post which says to me that FWH is not pulling his load and that you are trying to pull for both of you and because you are new to the concept of not being an enabler you do not realise how destructive this is.

This is a parent/child set up. he will act rebellious and entitled like any kid who isn't being asked to personally bleed for his choices.

Genuine remorse is VERY compelling and pursuasive and easy to forgive.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I AM impervious to making the same immoral choices.

To me, infidelity is not simply a fact of life that anyone may fall prey to. It is something that every cheater decides they want to take part in. Consciously.

My mother and father were cheaters. I knew of both affairs when I was in grade school. Even though the As led to divorce, neither parent was remorseful or sorry for helping to ruin my family. They are/were two incredibly selfish people. I was a selfish child. My wife cheated. I saw them naked on my couch. I could've had a revenge affair at the drop of a hat, and chose not to.

Am I impervious to having an affair? Yes. I've already proven it.

Then again, I'm not going to step out on my family like a pouting brat because my *sniffle* needs aren't being met, nor am I going to step out on them for a thrill.

People aren't "vulnerable" to immoral choices. They might make the bad choice, but that's the point. They CHOOSE to make a bad choice. Affairs do not just happen, and no amount of anecdotes or eyewitness accounts will convince me otherwise.


You know, some people "see" the Virgin Mary in a piece of driftwood...of course, they all happen to be Catholic.

Your wife did not have an A because her needs were unmet...she had an A because of the wickedness in her own hearty.

Having settled that you can relax...she didn't have an affair because of something you did or failed to do.

It is something she consciously chose to nurture and pursue.

So..about that resentment.

Could it be your self control that is causing you to chafe so much? Because you WANT to bail but can't take your eyes off the consequences and she got to do just that?

She just went and did exactly what pleased her didn't she. Didn't ask permission or forgiveness...just did it and left the mess for you to clean up.

You have lost respect for her..probably you aren't in love with her..probably you don't LIKE her even if you still care about her because her behavior has been so ugly.

So why are you sticking around? There is a reason why and it's vitally important that you know what it is.

Any ideas?

Once again i disagree. He is remorseful but being sorry does not change the facts that he had an A. It does not change the fact that he broke our vows and told me that we should not be together anymore.

Those things were not said because of some "fog". They were said because at the time he wanted what he wanted and the consequences did not matter. He did not even think about it when he left to go be with the OW.

And isn't a marriage full of scrafice on both sides. All of my EN were not being met either more of mine were not being met than his and i did not have an A. I did not say all those things to him. I still do not say all those things to him. I try not to bring up any of the things he said or did to me (all though i will admit when he gives me the i am never right speech it is very hard) but i still will never forget and if that means i will never recover than so be it.

I still love her very much. She is remorseful, has been transparent, answered my questions, etc.

I know all about her A not being my fault, etc.

Of course I resent her for not showing the same restraint I have. It's not difficult to remain faithful. As a matter of fact, it takes far more effort to be unfaithful.

She has been a model WS. How any BS tolerates anything less is beyond me.

Thank you for all the replies, everyone!

My weekend starts tomorrow, so I won't be around until Monday to see where this thread goes, if anywhere.

Once again i disagree. He is remorseful but being sorry does not change the facts that he had an A. It does not change the fact that he broke our vows and told me that we should not be together anymore.

Those things were not said because of some "fog". They were said because at the time he wanted what he wanted and the consequences did not matter. He did not even think about it when he left to go be with the OW.

And isn't a marriage full of scrafice on both sides. All of my EN were not being met either more of mine were not being met than his and i did not have an A. I did not say all those things to him. I still do not say all those things to him. I try not to bring up any of the things he said or did to me (all though i will admit when he gives me the i am never right speech it is very hard) but i still will never forget and if that means i will never recover than so be it.


We agree more than you think.

The first part of your reply is about pain. Deny it all you want but it's clear as day to anyone reading [want to take a show of hands?]. Remember I'm a BS too. I have been where you are going. I have said the words you are saying. You are expressing things so closely to what I have posted in days gone by it's making me flinch.

He HURT you when he did and said those things.

Have you expressed pain? Have you grieved? Have you allowed yourself to be vulnerable enough to be HURT and not just offended?

Moving on...


NO again I say emphatically NO marriage is NOT about sacrifice on both parts...that is a RENTER position and leads to resentment as a general course.

Buyers understand that self interest does more to motivate than shame ever will. Saying I won't agree to what makes ME unhappy and I won't agree to what makes YOU unhappy protects everyone in a relationship from feeling taken advantage of.

You are also correct that "Fog" does not render him lobotomized. He was being SELFISH and self indulgent and unethical and hurtfull.

If he is genuinely remorsefull then why is he not pulling his load?

See, I'm not convinced and I don't think you are either.

But I also think you are too timid to ask for what you need from him because that would make you vulnerable. And intimate. And exposed.

And you don't feel very intimate towards him right now do you?

He hasn't earned his way back to your heart yet and it's not likely he'll put forth that effort unless he believes that a more fullfilling marriage lies on the other side.

Sorry I confused two k/crazy posters! Thought you were the same....lol.

You folks need to come up with some creative names fer cryin' out loud. Look at mine for example..isn't it lovely and random?

There are only so many names associated with betrayal so there seem to be a lot of repeats. Get's very confusing to my little ferret brain.

OK,

I have been reading this thread although not all of the posts and it seems to me several things are being taken out of context. I have been here a long time and I think the term "fog" is being used incorrectly.

It was a term to help the BS understand why "their" logic and "their" arguements for rebuilding the marriage while the A was going on would fall on deaf ears. The term "fog" was about the WS's "logic" not being in touch with the reality of the history of the marriage or the reality of what their DECISIONS would cause in the way of damage.

The term "fog" was NEVER used to excuse the WS's choices or behavior, but simply to explain to BS's coming here trying to "fix" their WS and talk them out of the A, that such behavior would NOT work. ANd...it does not.

Finally, the term "fog" was chosen because it represented the fact that the WS's world was very small, excluded facts, data, and loved ones completely...they could not see them nor understand them, hence this dimished ability to see was termed the "fog".

Crazy and others seem to feel it is an excuse or justification, now perhaps he uses it as such but I would say that ALL of the old timers here do not. It is a way to explain to the BS that while in the A, the WS is often not reachable, nor seeing the world as the BS or anyone else would.

Excuse???? Never!!!

The decision to have an affair is just that a decision hence most of us ask how the WS convinced themselves that violating their own boundaries was an acceptable solution to whatever the problems in the marriage was.

Now Noodle says that And the answer should be NO!!

This is why Harley came up with the policy of joint agreement. Sacrifice in a marriage especially one that is not agreed upon and acknowledged by BOTH parties should NOT be made. Now I have heard that part of understanding marriage is to understand "diminished expectations." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But, sacrifice??? Nope! Not really.

If one or another must make a sacrifice, it should be POJA'd, it should be discussed, and the person making the decision to do something for the marriage/family not ordinarily expected should be acknowledged and supported. No implicit assumptions that it will be appreciated, no implicit assumptions that I will do it and the spouse will recognize it, no self-sacrifice unless agreed upon by BOTH parties.

Sacrifice leads to resentment and resenment is "like taking poison and waiting for the other person to dies." It kills the love in a person and makes them unwilling to act in a loving manner toward their spouse.

I agree with Harley, all people have the potential to have affairs, but I also agree with Crazy, if someone has been exposed to the devastation of an affair in their family, it is hard to imagine that they will not or cannot build up boundaries to protect themselves from making such a decision, YET...the data is clear that people do just that. They decide to have affairs knowing the devastation it can cause, why? Entitlement, selfishness, self-pity, all leading to a mindset that often is defined as "the fog" because it is so narrow in its focus.

Just thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

But what about tomorrow, Krazy?

Temptation is funny like that. YOUR perfect storm may just be coming (and you won't see it coming because you're impervious to it and "already proven [past tense] it".

The ultimate question really is:

What's your plan?

You see...this board is full of FWS's and BS's with WS's & FWS's MOST/MANY of whom believed, with every speck of their fiber that they too, were impervious to infidelity.

Without a plan to avoid it...such thinking is useless to protect you if and when the perfect storm comes a knocking.

Tomorrow is another day...WHAT IS YOUR PLAN?



On another point...typically (not always) the initial CHOICE is not to have sex with someone besides your spouse. It's not that simple. Unlike your decision NOT to have a revenge affair. Most waywards don't jump straight off the cliff. They make a series of simple choices, the beginning ones, quite innocuous. Stuff like deciding to log into classmates.com and communicate with an old lover, googling an high school sweetheart, or even playing cards alone with a neighbor or co-worker. The next choice is to exchange emails with such person progressing to ever more revealling and intimate emails. Then the phone calls and text messaging begin. All simple choices NOT seemingly related to infidelity to most in the world, ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT BELIEVE THEY ARE NOT SUSCEPTIBLE. Feelings grow...intimacies are exchanged in ever increasing amounts. Spouses are bad mouthed. Yada, yada, yada...emotional affair two seconds away from a physical affair. It's all pretty much spelled out in the 15 steps to infian delity on the "Newly Betrayed Spouses" thread on Just Found Out.

My point, I guess, is MOST waywards DON'T make a choice to commit physical adultery PRIOR to already being neck deep in the fog.

IT DOESN'T EXCUSE IT...JUST EXPLAINS IT AND IT COULD HAVE AND STILL COULD HAPPEN TO ANY ONE OF US.

I REPEAT....ANY...ONE...OF...US.

The sooner you understand that the sooner you will read about and implement a PLAN in your marriage to protect you from making the same God awful choice your spouse did.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - we gots ourselves another Lemonman. Dr. Lemonman was here a long time and he felt much the same way Krazy did/does. It wasn't until after his divorce and in the midst of a new relationship that he was finally convinced that just like the rest of humans, he too, was susceptible to infidelity. He was pursued and propositioned by a woman/co-worker at the hospital. From what I recall, she was an attractive woman engaged to be married pretty soon. He had a somewhat serious girlfriend. Anyway...he WAS tempted. He admitted he was close to doing it, considered it and had he NOT had a long marriage builders education...I think he said he likely would have. I hope I'm recalling the story right but the point is....Krazy is misguided today and IMO, his attitude places himself, his wife, his family (and those that agree with him) in danger. Satan KNOWS your weak spots and he'll see you coming from a mile away.

Protect yourself with the knowledge that EVERYONE is susceptible to it and the wisdom to do something about it!

Yes it is Noodle! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hi Krazy - Like I said in my earlier posts, I understand what you're saying and I think it's good for you to vent here...

After reading through this thread, I wonder how you and your W are doing with rebuilding your M. I sense that you have some pent up anger towards WS and adultery that you haven't dealt with.

Are you and your W in MC together?

Semper Fi,

RIF

krazy ~ I don't read every thread on these boards anymore and I have not for a long time. I've been around here since 2000. So, I suppose it is possible that I have not noticed that people use the term "fog" to excuse the WS.

Are there specific examples that have motivated you to post?

As people have already posted - The Wonderings, SL, JL, etc..the fog is a description of the mind of a drug addicted WS. The 'drug' is the OP - and it is most definitely not all about sex. There have been scientific studies showing that there are physiological, chemical changes in the brain when under the influence, the attraction of "Love". I say "love" in quotes because it is not real love, its just that flush of emotion that one always feels in a newly discovered attraction.

The WS is literally not capable of seeing and hearing clearly while under the influence.

Would you argue with an drunk alcoholic? A waste of time don't you think? The same goes for a WS under the influence.

It doesn't excuse...it describes.

I know this to be true because my husband became a totally different person while under the influence of an A. He said and did terrible, cruel things - while he coldly turned his back to me and our children, blind to the terrible damage.

When he was in a brief period of no contact during a false recovery...he started coming out of the fog and seeing things more clearly. But I could tell when his affair started up again....the fog closed in, thick and 'impervious' to use your term.

It does not excuse his behavior. Fog just describes his behavior at the time.

Now I can tell you - that around here, the danger is NOT that the BS or the WS uses 'fog' as to excuse the affair. It is used by the BS many times however, to disrespect and discount the WS point of view.

As long as you insist that your wife's affair was all about sex and lust...and that you are 'impervious' to having an affair, you are a weakspot in your own marriage.

I am recovered - and have a de-fogged husband when it comes to affairs - and he is still apologizing on occaision, 6 years later. That doesn't change the fact that his thinking was bizarre and distorted while he was under the influence.

I think noodle has had some good insights - you are very resentful and self-righteous. These attitudes will harm your marriage and harm you.

You'd be better off to come on these boards and discuss what is going on in your recovery that is not working for you, and get some feedback from the vetrans with some experience about successfully navigating early recovery.

Well I guess that Krazy and myself are the only ones in agreement on this so it is best just to drop it on my part anyway.

Thanks for the vent Krazy!

Hi S_C & Krazy,

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with your's or Krazy's feelings or opinions on this issue.

What some of us are trying to convey here is that as you move through the process, your perspective will change. Rebuilding the M is as much about making changes for the BS as it is the WS. We're not trying to bash your feelings or opinions here... just trying to get you to look at things from a "recovered" perspective.

I know full well the pain and anger that consumes you as you work through this... it's very hard to deal with. I can see the emotions loud and clear in a newly BS's posts. Rebuilding is the hardest thing that I've ever done in my life and for me, the absolute hardest thing was recognizing that I had to make some changes before Mrs. RIF and I could rebuild our M.

Vent away and feel free to express your feelings and opinions. We "old timers" will try to keep you moving forward even if it puts you out of your comfort zone... because that's the only way that you will continue to move forward on your journy.

Semper Fi,

RIF

I think venting is fine, as long as you recognize that people here are going to be inclined to question you about your vent, and to try to help you. This is not about harming either you, Krazy or Still_Crazy. This is about helping you.

Remaining in your angry place is definitely your choice, and will be respected. Noodle, the Wonderings, JL and BR have all seen, in your repective posts, a lot of anger, and resentment. If you believe that your marriage, or you, will thrive under these conditions, well, then I say we wish you all the luck in the world, but luck doesn't help anybody recover.