S_C...Are you willing to own your part of why your marriage was not a good one pre affair? (NOT to be confused with saying that you played any part of your husband's CHOICE to have an affair-You did NOT)

Mrs. W

Well read my posts instead of getting into this here. I have dealt with it for all these years why should now be any different.

edited: heading to your other thread.

Can we take this back to my thread please? He has threatened me with leaving the whole time we have been married whenever we talk about my feelings. I have dealt with it all this time but now it is just that i do not feel like i should have to he is the one who had the A not me.

Mr W. With that statement, now I know why you are a person I admire <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />.

Mrs. W, I hope you know what a man you have there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

All Blessings to both of you,
Jerry

Yep Jerry, I know how wonderful he is-a real man amongst men...He is my greatest blessing in this life...I don't deserve him, but I'm so proud and grateful to have him! Thank you for the compliment about him and the blessings! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Blessings to you too!

Mrs. W

I guess as a BS I have to believe the Fog is real or I would just give up all together.

I watched my 10 year DD call my WW today sobbing for 20 minutes about how much she misses her and how her life has been ruined and destroyed from her moms actions. Did she cry with my daughter nope. She acted defensively and almost emotionlessly towards the girl who was once her entire existence.

If the Fog is not real My real wife tricked me for 12 years she acted lovingly and caring for all us of while waiting to find someone to screw and leave us. That I cannot believe. If she isnt truly sick and fogged and aducted all in one then I will forever question myself for the lovely adoring wife I knew couldnt of been this person all these years.

I do pray the fog is real.

I think everyone agrees for the most part. The key thing is many BSs don't udnerstand the physiological component of affairs. There are chemicals at work that convince people to follow their most basic urges in this case reproduction. Their brain rationalizes the chemicals being erleased as appropriate because they are following thie natural urge to procreate. This desire is stronger than the bonding love over a short term duration. This is why most affairs fail from 1 day to 2 years because the chemical addiciton is not then responded to in kind by the lvoe one would expect from such an intense connection.

In essence affair partners find love backwards in a sense they feel that their soulmate could only be the one to create these feelings. However, this "soulmate" is a psuedo soulmate or an illusory one who meets the most desperate needs of the Wayward. Hence the reason that if two affair partners move in together they often fail very quickly because the emotional needs set expands to to one which the new partner can rarely meet because they are almost always incompatible in regard to the emotional needs the original partners were meeting.

Affairs are projection fantasies which are signs of an immature and damaged individuals. The damage and the immatury usually stems from childhood and a lack of boundaries.

In the case of my Wxgf her parents split up at a young age due to infidelity for two years. She was accused of cheating by her aunt who as a result died from an asthma attack during her accusation.

It's pretty clear she has severe issues when it comes to emotional issues like relationships. She's otherwise an extremely attractive woman who is very succesful at her job very organized but extremely vulnerable and susceptible to temptation/addiction.

I would an A has to do with deep rooted psychlogical issues which can be manifested from checmical imbalances or feelings of inequity or having been wronged somehow. My WxGF never felt sexy and yet impirically she's a bombshell who always gets lots of attention. Unfrotunately her self-esteem is so low that it can only be fixed by attention from men and flirting.

I'm back...long weekend.

I get that the "fog" is a term most often used by BS's...most likely to fool themselves into thinking that the actions of their WS weren't quite as monstrous as they actually were.

Comparing infidelity to an addiction is an insult to my intelligence...saying that A's ARE an addiction is an insult to every BS in the world. It's gaslighting, plain and simple. Maybe you've read it in enough places and repeated it enough times that you actually believe it yourself, but it's ridiculous. A pathetic excuse (not a reason) for acting like a 16-year-old with an erection.

Of course I'm angry. I'm fully aware of exactly what was done to me, and why. There IS no fog, no addction...only WS's deceiving BS's, and maybe even themselves.

It's not crack, it's not heroin. It's sex with someone new. We've all been there...we all know how it feels.

You can crank out paragraph after paragraph talking about how mind, body, and spirit are connected, and how screwing someone else is like doing shots in a bar...whatever. If it makes you feel better about your WS, or makes you feel less guilt as a WS, fine. I will not fool myself.

Someone posted that contrary to what I posted, it's easier to cheat that to remain faithful...easier to do what feels good.

I would agree...AFTER YOU HAVE ALREADY CHEATED.

The OP in my situation had better hope I don't decide to deal with my anger the "easy way", or he'll be scattered over 3 counties.

I personally think this assessment is way off, and I also think it's like your looking down your nose at the battered and war weary here. I never used the 'fog' to diminish the horrible deeds of my FWH, still do not. The term helps me to understand his addled mind, and deal with it, instead of just getting angry. In my household, that has stopped nor cured anything. But, that's just my house, and my experience.

About the comment about the ease of cheating, I don't speak it as TRUTH, just my opinion. I've always believed that following the straight and narrow is more challenging; I always will. That's just my experience. I've done enough wrong in my life to not deny how easy it was. Yes, I may have felt remorse afterword, but that did not stop me from wrongdoing in the moment.

Krazy, you have your opinions. THat's good that you KNOW yourself that well. I am just not one to say NEVER. I've seen it backfire on myself and so many others it's insane. As life goes on, experiences happen, I change my perspective and my mind.

Krazy, I see you "walked in on the act". That has to be more difficult to recover from IMO.

As someone who lived it, I can tell you sometimes it is something you can't seem to control.

I won't waste anymore time trying to convice you though. I'd be willing to bet you're d-day wasn't that long ago. Your pain is very fresh so it's harder for you to see what we are trying to tell you.

That's okay, you're entitled to feel the way you do.

Best of luck to you.

Krazy,

The chemicals released in the brain in response to "new love" are exactly the same as those released when an addict smokes crack. The WS is in essence addicted to OP (actually the feelings associated with OP) because of those reactions which include a an overwhelming sense of well being as well as the physical attraction, which is really only a small part of the equation in most affairs.

This chemical response is just that, a response to stimulus, according to not only Dr Harley but others as well. If OP makes a WS feel good enough, they seek that feeling above all logic.

The "fog" is the result of this chemical reaction in tension with the WS's own value system which seeks to overcome the feeling of doing something wrong that feels so right and good. Boundaries are obliterated and how OP makes me feel is all that matters, just like the crack addict who forsakes all else in life to pursue the feelings of getting high.

Most affairs end because the attraction and feelings are based solely on the chemical reaction which is a response to a fantasy, something that is not reality. Thus the "fog" eventually clears and reality returns. When the WS examines their actions, many realize that what they had was the real deal and the A was simply a fantasy. It is not just cause to engage in an A, but is an explanation of the dynamics of one.

If sex with someone new were the only determining factor, why do EAs lead to divorce as often as PAs? Many a WS has left a marriage or considered it seriously without ever actually meeting the OP in person and in some cases without ever even speaking to them via telephone.

A person's actions and choices are under their direct control. Even the actions of the addict are under their control. Choosing to use crack in spite of the dangers is not a sign of helplessness, simply of failure to protect weakness. Being addicted does not let anyone off the hook for wrong behavior any more than any other selfish act or choice.

Mark

Krazy,

I guess it's a matter of interpretation. I don't disagree that a lot of BSs do use the fog to fool themselves. That's a natural defense mechanism. I'm not not quite sure the word monstrous is the best adjective but that neither here nor there. I think treacherous is a better word.

I don't think the act of infidelity is an addiction as much as the events leading up to infideity and illogical rationalizations and behaviors during infidelity so closely simulate those that take place in a chemical addiction. Not to mention the actual chemical addiction in infidelity.

I'm just as angry as you are Krazy. Infidelity is one of the msot selfish acts someone can do. One of the worst things you can hear is I love you but I'm not in Love with you when someone is in thr throws of an A. Obviously that doesn't compare to walking in on the act.

You're right infidelity isn't crack or heroin but the mechanism still releases very powerful checmicals that the body craves. Just like smoking.

No one is forced to smoke but all it takes is one cigarette an addictive personality and you're hooked. Yes I understand that infidelity takes a lot more effort.

It's not about fooling yourself. Everyone has be fooled, lied to, betrayed etc by someone who we love with great passion.

I'm sure that if I was puished I could probably kill the OM with my bare hands but what would that resolve? I'd be in jail and the person I loved wouldn't be with me.

We protect those we love to protect our lvoe. So yes you are correct. We're not necessarily living in "reality" but sometimes you need to shield yourself from "reality" to remember that the people we love do still love us they're just lost and confused.

Krazy...

The frame of mind of the person DOING the action does not lesson the monstrosity of the action.

Let's examine this a little more closely.

Murdering children is a monstrous action. Sane people don't do it. Period.

So IF you have done it you are by default insane. Mothers drowning their children in bathtubs and dosing them with rubbing alcohol and fathers who kill their pregnant wives are acting from a place of insanity and wickedness.

Here is the crucial splitting point for me.

There are people who are involuntarily and obviously insane.

Then there are people who nurture insanity by doing evil.

These people are a little harder to categorise although they are a LOT easier to empathize with.

Adulterers and other addicts fall into this category.

Your WWs behavior was disgusting, degrading, filthy, horrible, disrespectfull, vile, abusive, and utterly totally without excuse.

Nothing will EVER make that behavior anything else.

It will remain as vile 1000 years from now as it is today.

The question is...is your wife a disgusting, degrading, filthy, horrible, disrespectfull, vile, abusive, and utterly totally without excuse for existing person?

And if so..why did you marry her?

Surely she has some redeeming or attractive qualities or you would not have said..THIS is the person to cast my lot with.

So what is going ON inside of her? WHY is she doing this?

Well I can tell you what happened.

She took one step too close to the flame. Her desire was to play with it and it consumed her. She believed she could control it. She was wrong.

Maybe someone gave her a compliment which lit her up and sparked an attraction for that person which she kept secret.

Maybe a lot of other scenarios which we can ALL relate to, have experienced, and have been tempted by.

The hidden trap of sin is that it is always veiled, never forthright. People who do "murder" all have a good reason...every single one of them had a reason to do what they did EXCEPT the "for real" psychos making skin lampshades and human eyeball cocktails and frankly even they had a reason..it's just that their reason is much simpler. Since they have removed the inhibitions that would require a reason there was simply a desire and no reason NOT to follow it.

You are comparing your WW with THAT category of crazy..and so ironically..it is YOU who are removing fault by saying simply..she did it because she is SO depraved that there was no compelling reason NOT to do it. By writing her off as purely selfish and single minded in her carnality and gratification she is nothing more than a dog humping the nearest warm leg and IF that is the case you are indeed a FOOL for resenting or taking personally or being hurt by these behaviors.

I disagree with it obviously. See I think the person took a voluntary step TOWARDS temptation with full mental faculties and I hold them 100% accountable for THAT STEP much as I would hold a drunk accountable for going into a bar with car keys in hand. Maybe they were too drunk to know what they were doing when they hit and killed a family of 6 but they made the decision for that to be potentially the outcome of the evening stone cold sober.

We KNOW that the neurochemical affects of an affair on the brain are real. That is fact..we can show evidence..you can look at MRIs...you can look at pattern behaviors...there is ample and compelling evidence that this chemical bath affects peoples behavior if you are WILLING to see what is right in front of you.

If you want to close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears and stick your tongue out insisting that she did it deliberately to hurt you because she is mean then it doesn't matter WHAT the truth is does it?

The truth about most waywards is that they DID mean to do something wicked but they only meant to do it a little bit.

As laughable as that seems it is also true. It is also very COMMON. Can YOU assert that you have never played with fire in that way? You have never ever in your whole life did something..even a small something...against your better judgement? You have lived your life with COMPLETE integrity?

The executive sorting coke in his office does not PLAN to be giving bl*w jobs in public toilets 6 months from now.

You are correct in asserting that they CHOSE the behavior but they did not choose the consequences.

One of the consequences to pursuing this behavior is that it affects your MIND.

Behavioral psychology is founded on the belief that what you DO affects what you think and feel just as surely as the reverse. Conditioning works on soldiers and it works on waywards. They CONDITION themselves to embrace something because they are addicted and it is easier to change your beliefs than it is to change your behaviors...especially when your behaviors FEEL good.

Your WW had NO IDEA that choosing to accept a compliment or choosing to have a secret crush [or whatever she did] was going to result in her boning some guy LIKE a dog in heat..with that exact grotesque meaningless flesh slapping flesh lack of sanctification or dignity in front of her husband. She didn't know that because no sane person would CHOOSE that humiliating experience for themselves.

We humans like our evil deeds in the dark thanks ever so much...that's why exposure is so effective in bringing reality into the fantasy. No evildoer DELIBERATELY exposes themselves Krazy. No one welcomes consequences with open arms. The fact that she was so far gone she didn't even recognise that doing something so risky would likely bring an end to her fantasy only further supports the lack of functional risk assesment.

Are there people who go into a cozy denial and excuse wickedness so they won't have to face it?

Sure there are and you will meet a lot of them here..they have bruises from the flying 2x4s and are easy to spot.

You represent the other extreme..the angry denial rather than excusing denial.

Just as excusing wrong behaviors and attitudes warps your perceptions..so does angrily denying that what happened had any other factors other than her general worthlessness because you WANT it to be so.

Reality does not bend to your will any more than it does for waywards or for excusers. The dynamics and elements involved in affairs are what they are and they don't ask for your permission or excuse themselves...they just run you over while you protest their right to exist.

There is this difference between happiness and wisdom: he that thinks himself the happiest man, really is so; but he that thinks himself the wisest, is generally the greatest fool. - Charles Caleb Colton


What's productive about this rant of yours...FOR YOU. You are 18 months out on this journey and where has it gotten you??? I'm concerned about you....really.

I'm only about 10 months ahead of you and I'm happy. Is happiness a goal for you and how do you intend to get there?
The most basic of concepts isn't even open for debate with you.

It appears folly to attempt to teach a man who is not anxious to learn, nor explain to one who is not trying to make things clear to himself.

ARE YOU ANXIOUS TO LEARN???

Mr. Wondering

Noodle,

Maybe my situation is extremely rare.

My W has been open and honest with me, as far as I know. Here is the gist of a conversation we've had more than once:

At some point she decided, CONSCIOUSLY, she was going to have a PA the next time she got an enticing offer. No relationship, no gifts, no dates, no intent of leaving the marriage. She wanted a "f_ckbuddy", nothing more. She found one.

She knew EXACTLY what she was getting into before she even met OP. She KNEW how it would impact me, because we had discussed it at length many times throughout our relationship. She looked into my eyes during our 1st MC session, in the middle of her A (before I knew), and swore that she would never cheat on me because she knew it would destroy me. I realize that not all As are the same, but in my experience, WS often go into As with their eyes wide open. They know exactly what they're getting into, and they know exactly what type of impact it will have if they're ever found out...thus the endless lies and deceit.


MrWondering,

I've learned much since d-day. I've read a mountain of material like "Not Just Friends", etc.

Sometimes, however, I feel like a person who only gets his news from FOX News. You can get the hard facts you're after, but you've got to cast aside a ton of crap to get them.

Like I said above, maybe my situation is really, really extraordinary. From my point of view, a WS is not a victim of brain chemistry. They just want some action on the side. In my experience, it can be that simple.

I've also learned that anyone can crap in your face at any time, for any reason. Or no reason...in good marriages and in bad, with a hooker for an hour or with the spouse's best friend for 25 years. I've learned that a woman can knowingly have another man's baby and pass it off as her husband's. I've learned that a spouse can risk the health of his/her spouse, and even an unborn baby, to get their jollies. I've learned that a man can chat with a woman online for a month, proclaim her his soulmate, and abandon his wife and kids to start a new life.

Yes, I've learned much in 16 months. Mostly that human beings are, for the most part, awful to each other, even to the ones they supposedly love the most.

I think it's great that you are happy. How that can possibly be without fooling yourself or having the wool pulled over your eyes, I have no idea. You are lucky, I guess.

Krazy...

They ALL go in with their eyes open. That's the "first step" I was telling you about.

Your WW sounds like she was power tripping on independent behavior...making decisions that affect you and removing your choice via deceit.

Now you tell me why it was WRONG for her to do this.

Krazy...I supported many of your views earlier in this thread...but dude, you really need to get a handle on the misplaced agression.

Relax...you are going to give yourself a heart attack.

I'm not attempting to insult you but you've seemed to miss learning the one thing that can, perhaps, make a big difference in your recovery.

YOU are a human being also...just as capable as your wife to have been or to be the one that was "awful" to the one they supposedly love the most.


Mr W

Krazy,

Been reading along with your posts. Your anger is justified that is for sure. But, I must say that your description of your W matches few of the WS's that have come here or been discussed. You stated that you walked in on the act I believe. You also described her as
Most WS's don't do this. Your seems to have little respect for boundaries nor worries that she will lose you.

I can see why you are angry. I can also see why you think the way you do about the "fog" as your W was not in the "fog". No delusion, no deception, just straight on A with no regard for you.

However, no matter how strongly you state it, no matter how strongly you beleive what you are saying, you are wrong about most of the WS's. They do NOT do what your W did.

Most enter the realm of WS slowly, without conscience awareness of what is going on except that they are unhappy. Then they find themselves emotionally attached and that may or may not lead to a PA. Your W by your words did not follow that path.

I suppose she could be a sociopath, but you don't seem to think so.

I wish you the best in your recovery, but more than that I hope that you can eventually lay your anger down.

God Bless,

JL