For a thread titled "I think I've done everything wrong..." I think you're doing quite a few things right. Good job on exposing to OMW and calling up OM. The fact that he's upset with you pretty much proves the point that his relationship with your WW is inappropriate.

As far as finding a counselor who embraces MB principles, I second ML's suggestion to call the Harleys to get marriage coaching. If your WW would be willing to participate in coaching from them, I think you'd have a much better chance than with the current counselor.

I can empathize with the situation you're in with WW in regards to her not having any support for cutting off contact with OM. I would recommend being a safe place for her to share her feelings. That if she feels like contacting OM she should contact you instead. Also, maybe the Harleys can advise her on how to proceed.

Concerning the e-mails, I believe if you mail the printouts to OMW and require her signature, then you can have some assurance she received them.

Thanks for the encouragement. Having found this discussion forum has really helped.
My wife asked me this morning as I was leaving for work, when I wanted to get rid of the CD's, and other "reminder's". It's small , but I'm really trying to find any reason to be optomistic at this point.
I wish there were some way to KNOW that she's committed to saving our life together. She can't seem to bring herself to agree to end all contact. I would think after knowing that he tried to damage me at work by sending a bad email, and that he was slinging petty insults at me when I called him yesterday, that her opinion of him might change, but it's not.
She told me yesterday that she can't be "cold" to him. I pointed out to her that she was being cold to me, and isn't our nearly 10 years together more important than this guy who she's only known for 8 mos. I just don't know what she's thinking, or what I should think.
The hurt, anguish, and anxiety over this is opressive and debilitating. I feel like I'm just a shell going through the motions of life. I know it's important to be strong, but it's more and more difficult to do that.
I'm going to suggest the phone session w/ Dr. Harley. I think she might agree to do it, but seems to immediately turn off anything that challenges her position, and only seems to hear what she wants. I'm not sure if this will really help us to move forward together. As I've mentioned, I'm completely committed to doing whatever I need to to save our marriage( short of allowing her to be "friends" with that b**[censored]).
This is her sticking point. I told her that I felt that this thing is not really about her relationship with him being that important, more that it's the issue she's chosen to represent her independence from me. I have always encouraged and supported her independence throughout our time together, but somehow she sees me now as controlling.

Sorry, I'm rambling again.
Any new words of encouragement or suggestions?
As always, thanks for caring.

i would let her know that your marriage will not survive with the OM in it. Just keep telling her that. She will kill all remaining love you have for her.

Secondly, Steve Harley will not counsel with you TOGETHER. He will coach you and give you a PLAN and perhaps ask to speak to her SEPERATELY some time in the future. Counseling folks TOGETHER is just a recipe for disaster and the couple ends up leaving angrier than they were before the session.

Should I put it to her that way? That it will kill all remaining love I have for her?
She doesn't do well under pressure in general, and I want to make sure that I don't kill any remaining love she has for me in the process...

As for the OMW calling my WW,
If she calls, clearly the OM & OMW are allies in this (based on her defending him in my call to OMW). How do I prepare to engage my wife assuming that OMW supports OM and attempts to discredit me?
I know I can't worry about what sort of "Fog exchange" takes place between WW & OMW, but I'd klike to be prepared to defend myself.

I think if OMW said "let's have peanut butter and jelly", my wife would hear "Your husband's crazy, your relationship with OM is AOK"...

As Charlie brown would say, "Good Grief"...

You mean her BAD BEHAVIOR doesn't "do well" under pressure. She much prefers ENABLING. Let her know you are not willing to stay in a marriage that includes OM. Tell her that her association with OM is killing your love for her.

It is very disrespectful of her to have ANY talks at all with the OMW.

I mean in general, good or bad. This is something that has been a trait in all the time I've known her. I don't just mean recent events.
Her MO is to withdraw when faced with pressure.
I do get your point about letting her know how I feel. You really hit the nail on the head. I just was looking for a little clarification about how much to share with her.
I feel as if I've given up too much information and insight, perhaps in my handling of this so far.
I feel that I'm doing a much better job since folks like yourself have helped through this forum.
She's told me that last Christmas was the worst she's ever had (we moved last year across the country, away from her family and she was lonely), and part of me wonders if this is some sort of payback. I hope she's not being vengeful...
Thanks Mel as always.
I really value your input, coach!

Plam B for me = Wife and son 3400 miles away where she has many friends, family and fun waiting. This may make returning to me seem much less desireable, and therefore, recovery much more difficult.
This is part of my quandry. I really don't want to be apart from my son, and don't want our marriage to fail.
I need some advice...

Why would your son go anywhere? You should do whatever you can to prevent that. If she leaves, that's one thing, you son stays in the family home unless and until a court tells you otherwise.

Oh, I would certainly not allow your son to be removed from your home. That would not be in his best interest. She is a fogged out alien and is hardly the best parent for primary custody.

It also would not be in his best interest for you to tolerate her affair because that is the thing that is most likely to end your marriage. That is why you would want to think seriously about Plan B before you get to a point of no return. Get her moved out and get primary custody for yourself, giving her visitation.

Should I tell WW that it's disrespectful to talk to OMW, and ask het not to?
Where she's broken NC repeatedly, how can I expect her to abide by this request anyway?
Do I threaten this child custody thing? I do not want to make him a pawn in our chess match of infidelity.
I work 6 days a week. I don't have any idea how I could care for him unless I quit my job.
I cannot afford, nor do I want to put him in daycare. He is the most precious thing in my world, and I don't want to do anything to hurt him.
I guess I don't know what I'd do...
About a month ago I was considering leaving with him, but I couldn't figure out where I would go or what I would do...
My single purpose is restoring our marriage and family. I feel that this extreme measure would eliminate any possibility of reconciliation. What can I do with WW to try to fix this and hopefully avoid such a mess.
Again, is there a forum or some other resource I can suggest to her that might give her insight or a different perspective on this situation. If she had some support from others who have endured a similar problem, she may start to feel more like this is fixable. I don't think she's that far off, and seems to be getting closer...
Maybe I'm in a fog too, but I really want to throw her a lifeline if I can.
Our survival together is too important for all 3 of us...

Yes.


You can't. But you can let her know that you are not willing to live in a marriage with the OM or the OMW and let her know you will be making big changes if contact is not ended.


No, don't make any "threats," simply tell her she won't be taking the child when she leaves. It won't be hard for you to get primary custody once you introduce evidence of her irresponsible adultery.


She could babysit him in her home or you could place him in daycare or hire a woman to watch him in your home.


I agree, which is why you must do what it takes to protect him from his irresponsible mother and take steps to protect his fathers mental health. You are the only sane, responsible parent he has right now. If she were allowed to leave with this boy, she would no doubt expose him to scumbags like the OM.

the things we are telling you are designed to save your marriage if that is possible. But going along with the status quo, as you are doing, is not going to achieve that. Your W will continue to see the OM, and it will get deeper and deeper, until she is stopped. As long as you tolerate it, she will continue to do it. And the longer she does it, the more tenuous your marriage becomes.

So, if she can't commit to NC, then I would suggest to her it is time to start looking for a nice room somewhere within walking distance of her new job. She would be required to pay child support to help you pay for a lady to come watch him during the day. I would have this discussion with her, try.

Just some questions: how would she maintain the A if she moved 3500 miles away? Seems contradictory that she would do that if OM is so important to her eh? And if she's willing to remove herself from the OM by leaving, why not do it while staying and working on the M? I realize logic and the WS mentality don't often intersect. However, just because she moves out of your home doesn't mean she has to go 3500 miles away and I doubt she intends to do that. Especially not if her son is with you.

Protecting your son is a whole different issue from saving your marriage. Your son doesn't belong with your WW, she's having an A and showing very poor judgement. She can't raise him properly right now, so you will do whatever you have to do to (within legal limits of course!) to protect him. Daycare, whatever, you'll figure it out, you just have to understand your role as your childs father and protector, and the rest will take care of itself.

If it gets to the point where you are going to Plan B, its really a last ditch roll of the dice. It happens when you really just can't take it anymore. You do it to protect yourself from the damage being done by your WW, to protect your remaining love for her, and to completely stop meeting all your WW's needs, forcing the OM to meet all of them, which he won't be able to do. With a young child, it might be wise to couple plan B with a separation agreement or a divorce filing, others would know more about that than me though.

Good point, Tyk.
She has said that he's not that significant, and wouldn't see him anymore if we moved back to the west coast. She would like to continue talking with him though. We've had the discussion about how ridiculous it is to be so stubborn about something that doesn't mean that much to her, but for some reason, she can't seem to stop (ADDICTION).
Logic simply isn't trumping emotion for her right now.
As I mentioned in a post yesterday, I believe at this point that this whole issue has become more of a power struggle, or her wanting to exert her independence, than it is about the A w/OM. I really think this is the case.
some background: A few weeks ago WW and I had a discussion about her feeling that I'm trying to control her. In that discussion she agreed that in nearly 10 years together, that this is THE ONLY time I have tried to convince her to do something she didn't want to do.
I tried to impress on her that that point alone ( that this is important enough for me to exert my will ) should signal to her that it IS in fact my trying to do what's in her best interest, as I alwys have.
My relatonship has always been based on support and empowerment of her, and she's repeatedly told me over the years how wonderful I am in that, and how much fuller and better she's become as a person thanks to me. Her self esteem and self worth have really blossomed in her time with me etc. Which is why this twisting of my continuing to do this in this case (attempting to protect her from being hurt by a scumbag), in to my somehow controlling her, and her needing to rebel against me is so hard to understand.
There has never been one shred of control exibited by either of us until this A...
I've told her that she can achieve the feeling of independence she desires while maintaining the comfort and support of a loving marriage. That making herself vulnerable to me can in fact be quite liberating. I know it was in my case with her.
I so many ways, the love she showed me in our courtship and early years of wedded bliss, allowed me to be vulnerable and experience a higher level of love than I ever knew could exist. I was closed, somewhat hard, and bitter until her love showed me a differnt way.
I know she feels as though my love for her saved her as well.
What we had was SO good, it just leaves me puzzled that there's any question or hesitancy on her part to simply do the right thing and get on with our recovery.
As for her moving, she doesn't really have anywhere to go here, and has said that the west coast is really her only optin should I follow through with my ultimatum...
I'm so srewed up in this...
I need one of those flash things from Men in Black...

If you find one, I'd pay quite a bit to erase a few frames in my own head!

You controlling her is not a real issue. Its babble. Its a straight up way to try to get you to question yourself and back off so she can continue her A unrestrained. Do a search on gaslighting. I don't know if its a common tactic of hers or not but this is a textbook case of it.

You mentioned a couple times that she didn't like moving. Tell us a little more on why you moved and how the decision to move was made. Sounds like she might resent moving. Not an excuse for the A, but it might contain some reasons and shed some light on things.

I'm from NH, moved to Oregon about 13 years ago for a tech job.
Met her there, we fell in love were married, and lived wonderfully in OR 'til about 2 years ago. We had visited back here frequently over our years together.
Part of me wanted to move back after our son was born, and part of her wanted to live somewhere other than where her whole life had been spent. At her suggestion we started looking at houses in NH, flew back to check some out and decided on one that we both liked.
She has been kind of miserable ever since. We are in a somewhat remote area, she feels like she has no friends here, spent a year feeling lonely and miserable without letting me know how she felt.
This feeling of being alone, not sharing that with me, and kind of "getting over it" on her own paved the way for her EA with the co-worker.
I believe that in what for us was standard behavior of always putting each others' needs ahead of our own, she wanted to move because she felt I wanted to. I thought she wanted to because THATS WHAT SHE TOLD ME. And ultimately it has proven to be a bad decision both emotionally and financially. (We had plenty of equity in the house we sold, and now that the RE market has dropped, we're in not so good shape with the new house.
Financial strain has something to do with the unhappiness as well.
We both clearly understand that the "Moving" issue is in large part the reason for the distance between us. That we didn't take enough time to really discuss all of the pros and cons of the decision to move and have vowed to not make that mistake again.But we actually had the house listed and were entertaining offers last spring, but decided after lengthy discussion together that we would stay.
We've, since D-Day discussed this at length, and agree that ultimately moving back to OR may be the right thing to do.
All in all, a majority of the poor communication issues we've had stem from how differently we communicate. I'm gregarious and she's reserved. Unfortunately she tends to internalize, and has not really shared things that are bothering her with me.
We talked last week and agreed to a new style of Comm. She's promised to be more open with me, to share her thoughts with me and give me anopportunity to provide for her EN of conversation, and my part of the deal is to listen more, not to immediately offer suggestions to fix everything, and generally just provide more emotional listening to her feelings.
In the week since that agreement, we've both felt that our comm has improved. We actually discussed this at our "post- call to OM discussion" yesterday at lunch.
I know I'm getting off the subject here, so back to it.
Tyk - very perceptive of you to recognize the "move" issue at the root of our problems.
We have discussed it, and seem to have agreed that regardless of what our address is we need to fix what's wrong with us. To me recovery of our trust and love cannot proceed until there is committment and follow through from her on ending all contact. She knows this, agrees, and still struggles to JUST DO IT...
Any other thoughts?

You're kind of at an impasse. You can't MAKE her stop seeing him. All you can do is be the best you can for as long as you can bear it. Sounds to me like she knows what the right decision is, and isn't making it for whatever reason. I'd keep going with the strong Plan A and get your ducks in a row for a really dark Plan B that includes your son staying with you and her being somewhere else. It might take the shock of having to really experience the consequences of her actions to make her hop off that fence.

Don't start breaking Plan A in the lead up to Plan B, you want her going into Plan B with good memories of you.

If you don't mind, relist who all you have exposed the A to.

Exposed to:
Her best friend
OMW (who seems complicit..)
That's it.
The only other person I've considered exposing to is her mom back in OR, unfortunately, she's been married for like 20 yrs to the guy she had an affair on WW's dad with... Not the best pillar of fidelity.
There really aren't any close friends of hers here in NH, and she rarely talks to many of our old acquaintances on the Left coast. I don't think there are a lot of folks to Pressure her. Her best friend told me that she tried talkin some sense into WW, but WW did her usual close-up and hear what I want thing...