And, if I may add....if you aren't sure yet about what to do........whatever you do...

DO NOT MOVE OUT!!!

If you do, you will regret it, and be on the short end of the stick for the rest of your natural existence. Things may or may not work out for you, but if you move out, you will look like the bad guy, you will never have control of your assets, there is....

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO BE GAINED, AND EVERYTHING TO LOSE

by moving out.....let her hit the road....I can tell you this is your best bet, based on my own experience.

Ron

Thanks again to all who have replied to my posts. I realize that I am not adhering to Plan A, Plan B, or anything right now. I know that with all that has been happening so fast, I don't even fully understand the rules of Plan A / Plan B. I've read the links that have been sent to me, but the majority of what I've learned has been the content of these postings and I'm very grateful for that.

I AM NOT MOVING OUT!!! I told her that in no uncertain terms and thanks to all of your support, I know that I'm doing the right thing there. We have both tried hard to stop having those agonizing relationship talks...though we have slipped up at times. We have set-up meetings with a counselor, both as a couple and individually, and that will start this week. We are trying to rebuild our connection by just enjoying being around each other, not focusing on the past, but trying to move forward and rebuild what was once there.

Before she went to work today, she looked me in the eye, gave me the first "real" kiss in several weeks, and told me that she wants our marriage to work and that she is committed to whole-heartedly and honestly working on it. I believe her. It's hard to...I don't really trust her at all right now...but I believed her when she looked me right in the eye and said that to me.

I truly believe (and her and I have discussed this) that her affair happened for 2 main reasons. One is that she felt disconnected from me in our relationship. That was something that built-up over the past several months / years. The other reason...the one that I can't do anything about...is the fact that she has had feelings for this other guy for 15 years. She has tried to suppress it, ignore it, make herself hate him, lie to her whole family about this guy, and most of all lie to herself about him. She has never, until now, been honest with anyone about her connection to him. She tells me that she wants to get over him and get him out of her life, but HOW CAN SHE MAKE HERSELF FALL OUT OF LOVE WITH HIM? Her and I can never work if she has feelings for him...we both know that.

She told me, and I believe her, that she wants to be with me and not him, but only if she can stop having feelings for him. I agree with that, because if I had known about her feelings for him 5 years ago, I would not have married her until those issues were resolved...and now I will not get back into a situation where she has feelings like this for anyone other than me.

Right now, I'm hopeful, but very cautious. I've started to accept the fact that ultimately, she may choose to be with him and not me. I can't force her to love me, but I know that I don't want to be betrayed by her again. We'll see what happens...

If she really wants your marriage to work, and wants to fall out of love with this man, then she needs to go totally dark. NC is a must for her feelings for him to wither, and even then, it will most likely still take a good amount of time. If she isn't willing to go total NC, then she is not committed to rebuilding your marriage.

If she thinks she can stay friends with him, you need to disillusion her of that idea. He is an enemy of your marriage and needs to be cut off completely, regardless of what he might do to himself.

As far as rationalizing the affair, its great that you think you identified 2 main causes for it, but don't mistake that for a justification. You can apply those reasons to determine factors that led to her unhappiness in the marriage, but there is another extremely imporant question that she needs to answer. That is:

How did an otherwise honest woman, justify the lying and deceit necessary to commit a profoundly immoral act?

The answer to that question will provide both of you with the insight to determine where her boundaries failed and how she can protect the marriage from herself in the future. Until you address that question, there is no reason for you to believe it won't happen again.

Its the same question that I need my wife to answer right now.

She says she is willing to go NC, but I know she has done that same thing at times during the past 5 years. They went at least a year and a half NC, but her feelings never stopped. The only difference now is that after 15 years of this ordeal with him, they finally slept together for the first time 2 weeks ago. I don't know if explicit NC will fix this. It will help, but more needs to be done. As we speak, she is supposedly ignoring all of his attempts to contact her, but until she has a plan to cut him off completely (phone call, letter???), then I don't think it is truly NC. She is trying to work on that plan today??? She knows that she has been leading him to believe that there is a future for them. I don't know that she has made any plans with him, but she hasn't done anything to dispute the very apparent plans that he has made for them. He thinks they are going to be together. She says to me that she absolutely does not want that...if she can't make things work with us, then she wants to be alone for awhile. She needs to not only end the affair for good by employing strict NC, but she needs to burst his bubble and bring him back to reality. That last line I just wrote is pretty funny, because I don't even know what reality is anymore...

Trust me...those reasons I mentioned do not justify the affair, but they do give some insight into how we got to this point.

I hope you get the answers from your wife that you are looking for and I wish you the best.

Can anyone tell me where I can find an explanation for the various abbreviations used on this site???

I dare not advise too much here, you've got ARK in your corner, and there's none better!

It's time she prove her desire to save your M.

A NC letter she writes, you approve of, and YOU drop in the mail. Certified W/Signature required!

Change the phone numbers/Email address.

She needs to be totally transparent, and should want to be, in order to begin the long process of regaining your trust.

You both get tested for STD's. Have her take a home pregancy test.

-JKT

Here your link MB Brevity Codes

Plan your pre-agreed type of response if OM continues to prove he's a few sandwiches shy of a picnic, and attempts face to face contact, or stalking.

A RO (restraining order) may be required. to "help" keep this guy away from your family. She may "feel bad" and want to avoid this.

He's soooo misunderstood... I feel guilty... Bla bla bla

JKT,

Thanks for the feedback...and the codes link (very helpful).

The most poignant thing you mentioned is that it's time for her to prove her desire to save the marriage. That's really where we are at right now. The ball is in her court. She knows that I'm willing to work at it, she just needs to decide if she is, too. I don't know how much time to give her, but the longer she takes, the more I come to grips with the notion that she probably does not want to work at this.

Is there any chance you can sell your house and quit your job and move out of the area? The Harley's recommend drastic actions to be sure there is no contact.

No chance...both her and I are very tied to our jobs here. We have all of our extended family here as well. This crazy guy would follow her anywhere she went. He has said that.

Besides, I would need to have the commitment from my wife to want to ensure no contact with him. She won't even take that step yet...

We are at the point where she need to "poop" or get off the pot... I'm getting tired of waiting. I'm pretty sure she isn't sleeping with him anymore since I found out about the affair, but I know she's contacted him since then and I'm fairly certain she still is. Every time she does things like that behind my back, it drives me further and further away. I really want our marriage to work, but the more time I spend thinking about things, the more I think that our chances of making it work are slim to none. It can't work if she doesn't want it to and that's the vibe I've been getting from her. I don't think that she wants to be married to me anymore.

I realize that it's hard to believe...
but this is going to blow up in your face...

she's gonna come back at you with a vengance...

you controlled her
you forced her
you made her....

blah blah blah...

hmmmmmmmmmmm a few days of a little disclosure and already YOUR patience is wearing thin...and you are ready to give up and say this can't be fixed....

what exactly don't you understand about plan a...

cause see in plan A there are NO expectations that she will do a THING...with tons of freedom for you to grow and expand and meet needs...and become the husband you desire...

what's your plan regardless of the affair that both of you are so wrapped up in career tracks that there's no time for marriage...

what's YOUR plan to fix YOUR PART in that creation...

decreasing mortgages

instead of going away for a weekend why not find a good pro marriage communication counselor....

why not save the money and call the harleys and set up phone counseling...

this is like watching a train wreck....

demanding commitment from someone incapable of valueing it is futile.....
logically is it not??

here I am sounding like a royal bi%^&
but I scare because I care.....

ARK

Outofideas,
Is there anything you can do, separate from your wife, to get a restraining order against this guy? If he has provable drug use and has said he will kill himself if your wife cuts him off, is that enough to get a restraining order to keep him away from your kids and yourself?
Maybe instead of relying on your wife here, you can contact him directly, tell him you are recording the conversation and get him to say something that demonstrates his emotional instability. Then you could maybe prove to the police that he is a danger to you and your kids.

That way you could have some recourse if they are ever exposed to him again or if he confronts you. Get his [censored] thrown in jail.

ARK,

Your "TOUGH LOVE" is the best medicine for me and I realize that. Your "train wreck" comment really got me thinking about the way things have been transpiring. I just spent the past 2 hours re-reading every link you sent me about Plan A and what it's all about. I think I'm ready to truly put Plan A into action (for the 1st time) and stop banging my head against the wall. I need to make that commitment to myself. I see that my recent behaviors are acts of desperation and are not doing anything constructive. I have my 1st appointment with the MC later today and I'm really looking forward to it. She is supposed to be meeting with her MC later today, as well.

Let me answer a few of the questions you had for me in your last post and then I hope you can answer a few of mine so that I can put forth an effective Plan A. We are not so wrapped up in our careers that we have no time for our marriage. The career comment I made previously was in response to someone else's question about whether we could move away from the area to escape the other guy. Our careers are here and more importantly, so are both sides of our family. That's why leaving those things behind to attempt escape from this other guy isn't really an option. Besides, she doesn't want to escape from him at this point and I believe he'd try to follow her if we moved. I do want to find a good pro-marriage counselor for both of us to go to together. I hope to set that up today when I meet with my MC. We are still planning to go away this weekend. The trip is planned, we can't cancel without losing the money we paid. However, I'm going to be a good Plan A husband this weekend, not the emotional wreck of a husband who has been taking the wrong approach these past few weeks.

Can you please help me with answers to these questions:

My initial thought for a Plan A that begins today is to set the deadline for the 1st of the year. Is that too short of a time frame?

Lately, she keeps talking about her leaving the house. Should I try to discourage this? Can I still do Plan A if she's not living here?

Should I say "I love you" and tell her my feelings for her? I struggle with finding the line between showing some feelings and love for her, but not being too pressuring and making her feel like I'm forcing her to be with me.

I have not exposed the affair. That's the main reason I'm so excited to see the MC...so I can finally tell someone face to face what's been going on. If I embarrass her by exposing, I feel that she will never forgive me. How can we ever fix anything if she can never look my family members or our mutual friends in the eye again? I guess that I'm keeping quiet about this for my own protection as well as hers. If we are able to recover, I don't think everyone in our world needs to know the details of our marital problems. I think that exposing would probably put a quicker end to the A, but she has had feelings about this guy for so long, I think she would just run to him even more. I think she would handle the shame of the exposure by running as far away from it as possible and right into his arms...justifying to herself that she should be with him because I just dragged her name through the mud and hurt her just because it felt good for me. That's how she would see it. I can just imagine my exposing the A to the world being the catalyst for an ugly divorce. I know this is part of Plan A, but I'm really struggling with the potential consequences...HELP!!!

How do you feel about anti-depressants? I want to do the Plan A actions like being happy and getting out and doing things... I want to do them very badly, but I feel like I may need a little jump-start to stop feeling sad and depressed. I don't want to pretend to be happy while doing plan A, but be miserable inside. She will see it all over my face.

What if she approaches me and wants to have a relationship talk? You say not to do that, but how do I defuse the discussion without blocking her out when she may be trying to come to me with something?

Your advice has truly been wonderful. I didn't come here to MBs looking for shallow approval or validation for my actions and feelings. I wanted advice...real, sound advice from those who have walked this path before me. And that's exactly what I've gotten here. THANK YOU (TO ALL OF YOU).

oh, boy . . . you are *so* going to have Melody Lane on your case for that . . .

outof, there are threads on Exposure on this site virtually every day. And every day we have to explain to some BS that if you do NOT expose the affair, you are protecting and enabling the AFFAIR - you are NOT protecting your WW.

Your WW and her boyfriend are strongly counting on the fact that you will keep your mouth shut and protect their dirty little secret. As long as you do, they can go on enjoying their affair in peace and privacy.

They are counting on bullying you with "WW will divorce you if you say anything!" But for pete's sake - your wife is having sex with another man. How much worse can things get??

However -

If you inform your respective families, OM's wife/girlfriend and all of their co-workers of the affair, you will have just turned on the lights in the crackhouse. The addicts will scream and rage, but it's not so much fun to smoke crack and be a crackhead when everybody knows that's what you're doing.

If you do expose, will she be raging furious? Will she threaten divorce? Will she spit venom and rage at you like you've never seen?

Yes.

But the odds are that she'll also stop screwing her boyfriend. And if she does stop, THEN you have a chance at putting your marriage bck together.

We say this all the time:

Your marriage CAN survive your WW's anger.

It CANNOT survive your WW screwing another man.

Got that?
Mulan

OK...point taken. I am going to read some of those threads on Exposure as soon as I send this reply.

How should I go about doing it? I think it's even harder now because I've known about the physical part of the A since Thanksgiving Day. I should have taken this step as soon as I found out. Any ideas on how to do this now?

Don't give her any advance warning at all. Just make up a list of all the people you want to expose to, get their contact info, and sit down and run through the list

Make sure they understand that you are not exposing to punish her. You are exposing to end the affair so you can work on rebuilding the marriage.

Make sure to read Charlotte's thread.

Still having issues with exposing...I think the PA has stopped. She has not sent a NC letter or told him there is to be NC, but she has not been communicating with him and she is ignoring his attempts to contact her...for the most part (I think). I recognize that there is a lot of doubt in my words as I type them. I know the feelings for him have not stopped. But if she has taken some steps to stop the A, do I need to proceed with exposure? She hasn't dropped him altogether, but I believe she is moving in the right direction.

It's been a whole 24 hrs of true Plan A mentality for me (celebrating the small accomplishments). So far, I've not brought up any relationship talk, I've done some nice things without expectation of reciprocation, and I've been inviting her to be around with the kids and I to do fun things. If she doesn't want to, OK. We put-up our Christmas tree as a family last night, and all-in-all, it was pretty nice. I know she was feeling awkward, but we did it as a family.

She did bring up some relationship talk this morning. I tried to avoid it and not participate, but I get sucked in for a few minutes until our son woke up and came in the room. That put an end to it. She was dead-set on discussing how we were going to divide up our possessions when she moves out. She is definitely angry that I put my foot down and told her I'm not leaving the house. She thinks that I'm not showing my willingness to work on the marriage by standing my ground on that point.

Should I try to convince her to stay? Can I possibly be in Plan A if she has moved out of the house?

My first thought is that if she stays for a while longer (through the end of December), I can implement my Plan A for the next month. Then, after the first of the year, if we haven't made any progress, I'd consider moving out, but it's going to be Plan B. What do you all think? To make this happen, she would have to know about my time-line, but I don't think she needs to know that Plan B would go hand-in-hand with my leaving or more importantly, what Plan B entails.

On the issue of you leaving the house during Plan B (which is too soon now anyway)

Men never leave the house. The laws are not equal in this regard - it will be regarded as abandonment later in court. Why should you move out ? Who is breaking their vows?

Here is a scenario - you move out - OM moves in - you have been replaced as husband and father. You get the added bonus of paying his and her bills to boot.

Had a friend who did the same - on the promise that she will get her head on straight. Eventually he gave up his house, wife and kids to the OM. Even signed over parental rights so the young kids could have the same last name as the OM. He attempted suicide when he finally realized what he had done. He still has mental anguish over 6 yrs later.

You have to be careful of the WS spin and clear your own fog during this ordeal. Hang in on Plan A for as a long as possible and it can be done if she removes herself from the residence albeit more difficult.

My initial thought for a Plan A that begins today is to set the deadline for the 1st of the year. Is that too short of a time frame?

yes too short of a time frame...

Lately, she keeps talking about her leaving the house. Should I try to discourage this?

yes but you discourage in broad non threatening controlling ways...

wow...if you leave the house the poor kids will really be confused why their mommy would leave them...

honey I have no other desire than for you and I to be here together as a true partenership....

you realize if you leave that I will not be able to financially assist you in destroying the childrens lives....

etc...

what about you confronting him instead of exposing..have you ever spoken to him...

What if she approaches me and wants to have a relationship talk? You say not to do that, but how do I defuse the discussion without blocking her out when she may be trying to come to me with something?

what is there to discuss...really nothing...there needs to be action on her part...

her comeing to you with a no contact plan fool-proof in place...

her coming to you with a counselor...
or willingness to go on an marriage encounter weekend..etc


are you religious...do you attend services....
do you have a mens group you can join to help you through this....

ARK

but she has not been communicating with him and she is ignoring his attempts to contact her...for the most part (I think).

what are his attempts...how does he contact her...
she needs to hand you her phone...and you take yours...and then play switch with them on a whim....

She was dead-set on discussing how we were going to divide up our possessions when she moves out.

you must learn to babble back..
dear I am not dividing things....I am not participating in your wrecking the children's lives...

do not leave the house..
if she chooses to go..she goes childless..

you need to see a lawyer as well to find out your legal rights and lay ground work for custody..

do you want your children primarily with this piece of drugged out sh*(.....

let me finds Orchids post on babbling back....

ARK