Let her talk, you just listen. If you disagree with something she says, never mind. She is still fogbound.

She cheated, and you're the one who has to be quiet and do all the work. That's the way it is.

The good things are: She's under the same roof with you, sleeping in the same bed. No contact in 16 days. She's seeing you acting better, looking better. And she will be in counseling with you.

dont' expect immediate results witht eh counselor. She might even say all the things the waywards say, with firmness:

It's over; I never really loved you; you've ruined my life; you never loved me; it's too late, yada yada.

Just nod and acknowledge what she says, without agreeing. "I hear you saying you believe it's too late" - mirror back what she says, no contradiction, no agreement, just let her get it out.

Is your counselor marriage based? Or a divorce enabler?

And remember, the gold standard if counselor is a divorce enabler: The Harleys!

Oh, the goodbye kisses? Try dry lip kiss on forehead, kiss on each cheek, big bear hug, "Luv ya, have a great day!" with great cheer and a big smile. Affection but no passionate kiss.

When you come home, big bear hug, growl into her neck, multi kisses on top of her head, place her gently on floor, big smile, again, no passion but big affection. Look her in her eyes, and if she is doing something like tending to one of the kids, tell her "Oh honey, I'll take care of Bubba, you've had a hard day, go put your feet up."

Then pick up Bubba, who will be delighted with your attention. There's nothing sexier than a loving dad to your kids.

Bellevue, how did you know? For 45 minutes I listed to how WS was the victim and how I did everything wrong. Everything was my fault. She is only in the house for the kids.

I took it all with a grain of salt but it is pretty discouraging.

"Then pick up Bubba, who will be delighted with your attention. There's nothing sexier than a loving dad to your kids."

Bellevue is right. Nothing melts my heart like a dad with his kids.

Was your counselor any help?

Sh0cked,

been there, done that.

Also, very important, jot down notes alone when you leave counseling. Monitor your progress, and gather intel in case she backslides & re-contacts the OM.

Also, ps, at the end of your sessions as you are walking out the door, she will at some point make an outrageous statement when the counselor can not deal with the two of you about it. Expect this. Raise your eyebrows, make a noncommital acknowledgement ("There's a thought.") and file it away for the following appointment.

Do not reason or argue with your wife about the doorway disclosure. You cannot win and you will set yourself further back. It will likely be some whopper of a lie. Prepare for it.

Do not try to clear the air in the time between the appointments. The counselor should moderate the discussion.

If it's something like "You never want me to have fun," and you know for a fact that every saturday morning you packed her a lunch and watched the kids so she could go hiking with her girlfriends, mention that.

If it's "For the last 4 years you weren't there for me," and you know darn well that you were, go through your memory and make a list of times that you either got up in the night to listen to her dream, or all the times you went and checked the oil and the tires and gassed up the car so she could stay warm and snug in the house,

or all the times she forgot to write something on the grocery list and you KNOW she likes it, and you bought it for her anyway,

Or all the times when you went out with her family with the boring non-stop talker cousin, but you were nice and attentive anyway,

like that.

Now that you mention it, not once did the MC ask if the A was still continuing. On the 1st visit, I made a point of mentioning the A was not over. It has not come up since. WW also booked weekly MC appointments through the end of February! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
I think her mind is in the right place, I hope her heart will soon follow.

Did a little more snooping while she was asleep - doesn't look like there has been any more contact. Cellphone has my text messages but none from the OM.

Back to plan A.

Hope you are not paying a lot of the marriage counselor. Around here we say there is not much point in going to MC if the affair is still on-going. At that point, the AFFAIR is the biggest problem in the marriage. If your counselor doesn't realize this, they probably shouldn't be counseling couples grappling with infidelity.

The affair is over - at least for now. She has been in withdrawal for a couple weeks. Seems to come in and out of depression.

One thing this MC suggests is that we spend a lot of time together and have fun. Makes sense.

Yes, 15 hours per week per the Harley's, and WITHOUT kids. Let her see the man she fell in love with years ago.

Keep monitoring, and be careful you don't leave any tracks.

MCs don't always understand the waste of time to do counseling, when an affair is ongoing. Ours didn't.

WW caught me snooping. One of the kids told I had her phone. She was not pleased.

I don't know, folks, am I wasting my time here? She has no feelings for me and even though we are going to counseling it is obvious her heart is not in it. I guess I am looking for encouragement to stay the course because things seem hopeless. What do you think? Can our marriage still be saved?

Thanks for your 2 cents.

*busted*

It's so hard to snoop when there are kids in the house - they're always slipping into the room at the worst times. Blowing your cover.

I used to have to wake up at 3:30 a.m. or so, when x was in a dead sleep, to snoop. Or do it when he was in the shower. And our son would walk in on me ..... very tricky.

His cell phone was like an appendage. He only took it out of his pocket at night to charge it, and if he had it plugged in, it would be on the bathroom counter, and he would have known I was opening the door, and I wanted to be slick about the whole snooping thing. So I wasn't able to do this as often as I wanted. Rarely he left it in his pants pocket in the bedroom, or on the bureau.

I'll stop thinking about that now.

You can still save your marriage. Don't get caught snooping. Just hire a good PI.

It was a lousy way to live.

Heck, no. Your marriage can never be saved. It is doomed and probably was from the start, just as she's been telling you. Understanding that is just about the best thing you can do, right?

I mean, it's not important that we've warned you your WS was going to say she doesn't love you (and probably never did, oh by the way), is it? There’s absolutely no reason to think everything she's doing or saying is predictable and completely meaningless, like we’ve been telling you. All that is just ridiculous, isn’t it?

It's not even worth considering how great it is that she is still at home where you can do a good Plan A. Don't even think that is a hopeful sign. We’ve given you lots of reasons to believe it is, but you should ignore all that, shouldn't you? What do we know about all this, anyway? Just because we’ve been through the same things isn’t at all important, is it?

You know what? You shouldn't pay any attention to anyone out here when they talk about withdrawal either. That’s absurd...just because Dr. Harley says about the same things we do, and wrote about it in SAA, none of that is relevant, is it? Heck, in reality, she should have already snapped out of all this and since she hasn't in these past 16 days, that's proof she never will, isn't it?

If I was in your shoes, I'd throw my hands up, curl up in a fetal position, and just give in to the inevitable. I'd quit on my children too. There’s no reason to consider their interests. They’ll get by, somehow.

I'm with you, buddy. The best thing you can do at this point is just start thinking about whether you should ask for visitation rights for your stepdaughter along with your twins. Heck, that's all you can do, isn't it? Isn’t it?

--------

OR...you can man up and buckle down to some hard work.

Darn it, man. Your WW has been proceeding just about in lockstep with the profile of a cheating spouse we see out here all the time.

I’ll be blunt...okay blunter. I'm not particularly sympathetic with you about your WW not being "pleased" you got caught with her cell phone, Shock. Big *&&^% deal!

First, you're supposed to be smart enough to take sensible precautions not to get caught by a child. But second, why are you so darned (the word I was thinking of here was NOT "darned")...why are you so darned concerned with keeping her pacified and content?

Man, let her be mad. She'll get over it! Your marriage can survive her being pi$$ed. It will not survive if she stays in contact with OM.

Look, you're still snooping because she has zero credibility right now. She HAS been deceiving you, after all. You have every right to assure yourself she's not still cheating. She just does NOT have a right to privacy so she can betray the marriage. Why didn’t you find some nice words to get those ideas across to her, pardner? Think about it.

Friend, the really big problem is that you are STILL not focusing on working your Plan A. You’re tripping down the garden path blindly, not knowing where you’re going or what you’re going to do when you get there. Get with the program, man.

Here’s what you could have done:

You could have quickly apologized for the fact you still feel the need to check up on her. Notice the difference with what I bet you your next pay check you actually did? You could have established a key boundary there, couldn’t you?

You could have handed over YOUR cell phone the instant all this came up and told her she could check up on you. You could have insisted she do so right then and there...and you could have asked her to do it as often as she liked!

Further, you could have offered to set up your cell phone account so she can see the activity on your account online (if your provider has that feature) and, with a little bit of persuasion, you could probably have maneuvered the conversation so she couldn’t do anything except reciprocate, just for the icing on the cake.

BUT...even if she didn't agree immediately, the idea would have been planted in her mind. Ideas germinate, right? See how things work? Darn it (and, again, I wasn't thinking the word "darn")...Darn it, stop living in the moment so...darn...much. Start working things today for the rewards you'll see on some distant tomorrow.

You could have “apologized” for not having brought all this up before. You could have told her you understand and agree she’s entitled to know exactly who it is that you’re text messaging and calling just as badly as you need to know these things about her. You could have “apologized” for not having been able to tell her before how badly you wanted to BE trusted at least as much as you want to trust her.

You could have turned the whole thing to your advantage by continuing the discussion and broaching the concepts of radical honesty and total transparency, couldn’t you? You could have sat down with her and discussed ways you two could make that happen. Do you recall reading anything about POJA in SAA? Do you not know you can apply that concept without her ever being the wiser about what you're doing?

Man, moments like you went through today are OPPORTUNITIES and you’d better start taking advantage of them. You need to sit down, FOCUS, and start strategizing. Have ideas and thoughts about various issues WAITING for the right time to bring them up.

Or you can assume the fetal position and deal with the consequences. It's your choice, Shock.

--------
Corrected for grammar and punctuation.

Sh0cked, LH just gave you a Biggg dose of MB tough love...

Read it, over and over again!

As always LH, you Da Man!

LH,

But what do you really think...??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Shocked,

You've just been reality slapped by the best. Learn from it well, my friend. You aren't the first and probably won't be the last...

Mark

When the WW asked me about the phone, I told her that trust is earned and there has been too much deceit on her part to trust her right now; the A was going on long before I knew the truth. I told her that she needs to remain open and honest with me and I will eventually be able to trust her. She responded by telling me, "maybe I shouldn't stay here." I told her that I like her home but she needs to do what she is comfortable with. It was just an idle threat anyway. She has no intention of moving out.

My question about saving the marriage is more about me wearing thin from getting nothing in return. Having a hard time with my "taker". Could be from the crap I heard at the MC yesterday or it just could be an off day. The phone really didn't set me off. I should feel better after I workout tonight.

ShOcked...

Have you ever gone back and re-read this thread, from start to finish?

Everything that has happened in your sitch, has been exactly what everyone has been telling you was going to happen.

It's like there is a "wayward handbook", and they all pretty much follow the exact same patterns in what they say and what they do.

In order to have an affair a wayward MUST forsake all that was near and dear to them...husband, wife, kids, family, friends and sometimes jobs and often churches. That requires a total disconnect from the wayward to all they once "had".

Imagine for a moment the thought process that a wayward must have to "admit they were wrong". Not just about the affair, but in how they treated their spouse, their friends, their extended family, co-workers, everyone.

They are living a life that is in utter chaos. They have NO PLAN. They do not know how to gracefully return "home" to the life they forsook. They are constantly looking for excuses, others to blame, perceived slights and/or faults and a way to sweep it all under the carpet so there are NO CONSEQUENCES for their actions. There is seldom a rational thought in their foggy head.

A BS must know and understand this, to be able to hunker down, exercise Plan A, and be a safe haven for the alien to return. There is no easy button...there is no short cut...there is no written path to follow...BUT there is Marriage Builders, with guidelines, and forums with supportive people trying to help you stay energized and focused on the task at hand.

We are not people offering advice with no experience in the matters at hand. We have stood in YOUR SHOES, and know the pain...know the frustration...know how absolutely disheartening the lack of noticeable progress can be.

Matters like these must be measured in MONTHS, not hours or days. You cannot see the progress until you LOOK BACK and see where you were a month ago.

Read this thread from start to finish...see how far you've come. Read some other threads, where the WW has moved out, and the BS has to Plan A from a distance, in irregular intervals. No matter how bad it seems to be where you are at, there are others fighting much bigger battles.

Be thankful for the progress you have seen, and let that energize you to continue. You are following the same path that many before you have followed, with as much or more success as many. Your sitch looks PROMISING to those of us who have walked the same way.

Don't give up.

Longhorn - thanks for the kick in the a##. Woke me up but my rump is still a little sore.

Shattered Dreams - thanks for the words of encouragement.

Had a good night with the alien. Massaged her feet while she watched TV. She went to bed early, I stayed up to tend to the kids.

And Longhorn, tonight she asked me about my phone (I was doing work emails) and I handed it to her and said, "you can browse through here anytime." She said, "the problem isn't that you looked at my phone; I have nothing to hide. The problem is that you did it behind my back. I don't like deception." I replied, "I don't like deception either." She handed me back my phone with a deer in the headlights look.

You are doing FINE. Good job on the "I don't like deception either". That was just right!

Thanks, Believer. Alien has horrible heartburn and can't sleep. Brought her some Prilosec, antacid, and water. Offered to prop-up the bed. Tending to her needs without being over zealous.

People here have been great; don't know what I would do without everyone's help. If this works out, champagne is on me. And if it doesn't, beer is on me. Sorry Longhorn, no Lone Star. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Someday (no matter how it turns out) you will feel good about fighting for your family. Like Bob Pure says - it's a hero's gig. Hang in there.