... or expecting anything in return...

...yet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> This is what unconditional love is all about!

Okay, Shock, you did a pretty darn good job with your WW last night. Kudos!

See how easy it can be? You know what? She may not mention "deception" for a week, or even a month, but you can be sure it's on her mind. You definitely made your points. Now, how might one reinforce that “lesson” in the weeks to come?

Watch for times when you can move other parts of the agenda forward little pieces at a time. Understand, "watching for opportunities" really means you have to know your subject matter "by heart" in order to be able to make points spontaneously in the surprise of the moment. I think that means you should study the second 2/3 of SAA, and refresh your memory of the rules regularly.

Like others have said, this time is the roughest. You won't get anything from her for a long time, and waiting for her love to resurface is like watching a pot boil. Were I you, I'd take the affection and love your children have for you and learn to take that as something to sustain you while waiting for your WW to make the key commitment. Hey, ‘tis the season, right? The act of returning their love is rewarding in its own right and it just might end up sending some signals in the WW’s direction.

And…this is Coors country, not Lone Star. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hang tough, pardner.

Lone Star...yeah, they should have left it in the horse :P

I'm a Shiner Bock man, myself. Every time I take a work trip to San Antonio, I convert some more of my co-workers. Wish I could get the stuff on tap out here...

Looking for a little advice on how to turn a sticky situation into a positive.

WW graduates next Friday. My folks were originally going to attend but now they do not want to see her and only want to spend time with the kids and I. They were originally going to stay with us but are now in a hotel. WW is very nervous about their visit and does not know what to expect.

What is the best way of telling the WW so that I can use this as an opportunity for progress?

Should I:
1. Fight for her - tell my parents we are trying to work things out and we are a couple and should do everything together (she wants).
2. Ask her to call my parents - admit fault and let her relay we are working on the marriage.
3. Let her know that her actions had consequences and she needs to rebuild that relationship before they will spend time with her.

Thanks for your advice.

Shocked,

Can you talk to your folks and tell them that it is important to you that they attend and be supportive of your wife because it is also supportive of the marriage that you are trying to save. By supporting you as you support her, they would be helping rebuild the relationship. That way, they get to see the grandkids as well as you without you having to ditch your wife in order for that to happen.

You might need to explain further that while you want to see them and want them to visit with the kids as well, that since this is an important day for you wife and because you are trying so hard to salvage your marriage you do not feel that you can simply abandon your wife in order to spend time with them.

It would cause resentment in your wife if they do not attend her special event and they shun her; it would cause resentment in your parents if you could not spend time with them and the only losers on both counts are you and the kids, while them agreeing to go along with the original plans would give them what they want and give your wife what she wants as well without putting you in a position of having to choose one over the other. Even a 50/50 split of time during this time would be a lose/lose for you. Maybe you can help them to see that.

FWIW, if you do end up having to choose, you probably need to choose your wife right now because she doesn't need any more reasons for resentment. JMO.

Mark

Can you refresh my memory about something? Is your wife still in withdrawal about the affair? Is she "unsure" of what she wants or does she want to recover the marriage?

The answers to that question really has a bearing on what your solution to this problem is.

If you and your wife want to recover the marriage, it is counterproductive for your parents to ask you to choose between them.

If your wife still has a predominantly wayward mind, telling her to fess up and apologize to your parents probably won't have the desired effect, either.

I think the right solution is a mix of your different options. Explain to your parents that you are working towards recovering your marriage and you expect them to support your decision even if they don't agree with it. Leaving your wife at home while you visit with them will undermine your recovery effort and make your wife feel that she won't be part of your extended family again. Tell them that they don't need to pretend like nothing happened, but you do expect them to be cordial to her. No lecturing on adultery or anything like that.

At the same time, talk with your wife about how it is up to her to do the work in rebuilding that relationship with your parents. Make sure she understands that it will take time for them to come around but you WILL stand up for her if your parents start getting judgmental.

Excellent post Andrew!

Mark

To be honest, I am not sure exactly where we are. The A is 3 weeks over and there is no sign of contact. She still blames me for it though, and is sometimes hostile. She is not apologetic; her excuse is that she was "pursued" and I was so distant that the attention fulfilled an important need.

We have had 3 MC appointments and she scheduled 8 more but thus far they have been all about what I did wrong in the marriage and what I need to work on. We have not yet tackled the elephant in the living room.

She has been in the house and sleeping in my bed for roughly 10 days in a row. It feels permanent but she will not admit that it is and sometimes she holds it over my head. "Should I not stay here tonight," she occasionally says but always stays anyway.

On the other hand, no pun intended, today she told me that she started wearing her ring. She also told me she really wants our marriage to work.

We are going to my work Holiday Party tomorrow night and she will knowingly be facing some of our friends that I exposed to. She is nervous but still wants to go. I told her I love her and our marriage is more important to me than anything else; we will tackle it together.

Things are definitely strained. No question she cares for me but I don't think that "love" has returned. Right now she just wants to have fun and be more like friends.

Andrew3, if I have to choose, my guess would be that we are in early recovery but she is still very foggy.

Shocked,

If it's only been over for three weeks, she is still not over withdrawal. The way she is blaming you for her affair is what all waywards do at first. It was how they justified their actions to themselves to allow them to engage in the affair and so is part of the wayward mindset. That takes a while to go away...quite a while....as in a long time...

If she won't admit that it is permanent, don't ask about it. Just assume it is unless she says it is not for certain. The fact that she says she wants it to work means more than you can even imagine. For so many struggling with the same thing right now, their WS is saying he/she does not want it to work out. So don't give up, you're way ahead of the game compared to many.

You'll recognize real recovery when you get there. It will be her working at it as well as you. That takes a while as well.

Be sure that you are spending many times the amount of time together just having fun as you are talking about you issues and problems. That's what you both need right now. You have to fill each other's love bank so that the love can return and then, she will begin to feel for you as she once did.

That's the cornerstone of the MB method. Concentrate on rebuilding the love as the primary step and leave the communications and conflict resolution stuff for the MC for a while. Eventually you get to the point where you can recognize when it is time to back off from dealing with problems and refill the tanks again for another push. It does get easier...just not real soon...

Mark

Thanks Mark1952.

Fortunately, the A (EA & PA) lasted only two months so I think I have an advantage over many. She tells me she is over him and not interested in the least. She told me that she and her workout partner (female) make fun of him and others. In any event, I have seen no evidence in 3 weeks and I have done some snooping. I am going to install a key logger on the PC tonight just to be sure.

She does waffle between hot and cold and does still have the fog. I am not sure she is working on the marriage to be with me; I think she is doing it because it is the "right thing to do," kids and all. I'll take what I can get at this point.

Tonight she wants to take me shopping for new clothes. I lost 25 pounds since this whole thing started and nothing fits anymore.

This whole thing is tough but I am spending a lot of time with her - even more now than before the A.

The old infidelity diet. It's one weight loss program that seems to work for just about everybody.

I don't recommend it myself.

I lost 18 pounds in 2 weeks...Gained it back when I got sick last winter. <sigh>

Hang in there. One little victory at a time.

It's the way a pitcher has to face a team of sluggers; one pitch at a time, one batter at a time, one out at a time. If you get 27 outs before they score more runs than your offense, you win every time.

Home runs are nice for the fans, but pitching wins the game.

Keep pitching.

Mark

Thanks again Mark. You are the king of analogies.

Just got a call from the wife. It went like this:

"How was your workout"
"Good but I had to cut it short so I wouldn't run into him"
"Did you see the OM?"
"No"
"Good, because even though it is over between you two, I am afraid it will stir up some emotions."
"It would only make me angry, if anything."
"Why?"
"Because he played me. But that doesn't matter anyway because I want to be with you."

I like how the conversation ended but will need to make sure NC continues. Time for a new gym.

It sounds very promising to me. Hang in there and keep doing what you are doing. And find her another gym, or better yet, YOU go workout with her.

Are you spending 15 hours a week doing fun things together?

Dang it!

"Good, but I had to cut it short so I wouldn't run into him."

"Did you see the OM?"

"No...etc., etc."

What the heck, Shock? Why’d you let it go that way? You sent angry signals to her where you could have made big points. I’ll tell you how…

What would have been a great way to continue:

"Okay, that's great, honey. I really appreciate you working hard to avoid him and I love it when you tell me you want to be with me 'cause I sure want to be with you. You know, maybe we should talk tonight about switching gym clubs? You know...one that you AND I could feel good about? Something to think about, huh?

Well, I gotta go. Young (whoever) needs (a hug/a bandaid/a little help/whatever). Hurry home, honey. We're having (something good) for dinner, okay?" (Or whatever else you can devise so you can end the conversation ON A HIGH NOTE!)

Shock, do you SEE where you could have made major points in that conversation? Look, I know you triggered when you heard about OM and the gym and everything, but I'm becoming more and more convinced you have an excellent chance of this working out fantastically if you'll just think your way through the triggers. It takes work, but you can do it.

------

Regarding your parents and the graduation ceremony. Call them, or have them call you when both of them can sit down on a conference call with you. Explain to them you understand how they feel because you feel that way to some extent also. BUT, you tell them, WW is working hard on the marriage now (8 more MC scheduled by her, for instance) and she's showing signs of how much she regrets what she did.

Throw things out in the conversation like: if Jesus could forgive the adulteress and ask who among the crowd would be the first to throw stones, how can you NOT work as hard as she is. Tell them "my children deserve two parents in the home and if I can possibly salvage this, I'm going to...and I need your help, Mom/Dad."

Tell them everything that's in your heart, man. Then ask them if they can be there for YOU. Can they set aside their distaste for what she did for a short time and help YOU do what you can to mend the relationship.

See where I'm going there? Your Mom and Dad are motivated by anything YOU and your CHILDREN need...you just need to coax them into extending themselves just a little. They don't have to be loving to her, just civil.

Now, if they can’t, they can’t…and don’t you dare try to force it by making an ultimatum. Number one big mistake, GI! If they can’t bear to be there, ask if they’ll at least send a graduation card or something like that. Work to get something from them, however tiny it might be. Small beginnings can be built upon when chance presents an opportunity later. Do I have to tell you to look for opportunities too?

Remind Mom and Dad that WW is always going to be a part of the children’s lives and your parents won’t be able to keep themselves separate from her forever unless they don’t plan to ever see the grandkids again.

BUT, above all, don’t force things if you can’t get a good commitment from your parents. Accept it with good grace and accept it for the moment. A mistake now between your parents and your wife can have distasteful consequences in the coming years.

Work to make your WW feel better about it. Use the occasion to do something special in place of having her in-laws there. You’ve got a banner ready to put up outside the front door when she comes home, right? The kids have been motivated and readied to give her cheers and lots of hugs? You’ve got dinner reservations at her favorite restaurant? Do something, okay?

I have a minor disagreement with the idea it’s your wife’s total responsibility to rebuild the relationship with your parents. You are a couple and you’re dealing with this AS a couple. Face this in the same way…and you’ll gain points in your wife’s estimation as you work with her.

-------

Okay, here's some amateur psychoanalysis.

I think your wife is throwing off signals right and left she is feeling guilty, remorseful, and wants very badly to get things back on an even keel with you.

Point: She's put her wedding ring back on? Outstanding! When she took it off, it meant something and when she put it back on, pardner, it means something also. I invite you to look around at many of the threads out here where betrayed spouses just WISH their WS would show just that tiny bit of commitment.

Point: She called you to assure you she didn’t come in contact with the OM. Fantastic! That took some thinking on her part, man. She was thinking compassionately of you, knew you wouldn’t like her even seeing him in the distance and she wanted you to know what she’d done. Show your gratitude for this. Reinforce the concept she’s done the right thing. Frankly, I’d say this was a sign she may be recovering the integrity cheaters have to suppress in order to conduct their affairs. Excellent sign!

Point: She’s back in the marital bed. Great! Lots of WS’s don’t get there for months. You’re moving on such a fast track that it’s scary sometimes.

“…should I not stay here tonight…”

You know, that sounds to me like she may be asking for confirmation she should be there…that YOU want her there. She’s giving you an OPPORTUNITY there, pardner. Score some points by telling her whether she stays with the family or goes is her decision—she’s an adult and you can’t MAKE her stay. BUT, you say, you love her more than she can ever believe and if she stays, it makes the family whole. You don’t feel complete when she’s not there, you say.

Okay, maybe this is getting a little corny, but you KNOW her. You can get these ideas across in words she will expect from you, right?

Point: She wants to be friends. Maybe, maybe not. She might be asking if you really want something more than that. She might be asking you to confirm you're still where you were before she went insane. But even if being friends is exactly what she meant, that’s cool too.

At the very, very least, it’s a starting point. You and she have to work your way back to where you were…only better, right?

Okay....so build on what she says, and read what she’s not saying too. She hasn’t said you’re a sack o’ (whatever) and she wishes you were dead, has she?

You were friends first, a long time ago, and it developed into something else, didn’t it?

Make it happen again, man. Read Dr. Harley’s SAA. Do you see something about 15 quality hours a week concentrating on each other? Do you see something there about taking a vacation together…getting away together to work on just you? (Seems to me, your parents could take care of the youngin’s for a week, couldn’t they?)

Other ideas: how about a date night every now and again. Doesn’t have to be super romantic to have a great effect. Dinner and a movie can say a lot…if you’re careful about the movie. You don’t have to hold hands all the way through the movie…but be available if it’s her idea even the first time. Etc., etc. Work on it, man. It’s all about opportunities and taking advantage of them.

Point: She wants to take you shopping for new clothes. Fantastic! I seriously think it’s a start of something…I think she’s looking for ways to make amends. Let her! Allow her enough room to revert for a while to a young girl and let her play dress up with her “doll.” Ain’t nothing wrong with being Ken to her Barbie, is there? Man, let her DO something for you, Shock! She wants to…so accept it and HAVE FUN WITH IT. It could lead to a lot more, couldn’t it?

Okay, I have to quit. It’s long past my dinner time and I’m starving.

I wonder what opportunities to advance your recovery you’re going to have come to you tomorrow, Shock. I wonder what you’ll do with them. You need to get good with this, pardner. There are rewards you can’t imaging waiting for you on the other side of this.

LH

Longhorn, you sure know your stuff. Much better than my old IC. Do you take United Health Care PPO?


You know, I did have that conversation - sort of. At the end of the call, I thanked her for avoiding him and being considerate of my feelings. I did miss the boat on switching gyms, however. I won't make that mistake again.

Last night we had a GREAT night - we made dinner together. I sautéed the fish, she cooked the rice and asparagus. As I was turning the Ahi Tuna, she pulled me aside and apologized for hurting me and having the A. I told her that she is the most importing thing in my life and I will do anything for our marriage.

We served dinner up and all ate together as a family. We then played "favorite part of the day." DS said his favorite was walking with me to the bus stop. DD said hers was playing at the Y. FWW said her favorite was coming home and seeing me. Between that and the apology, it seemed like a dream.

I did the dishes and she played with the kids. I then sat with her on the couch while she watched TV. We went to bed together, I gave her my nightly foot rub and we went to sleep.

This morning we cleaned house and plan to workout together at the Y. Tonight is my Holiday Party. I look forward to it.

Oh - one more thing - FWW told me she is thinking about emailing my folks a letter. I have already decided to gain their support. Hopefully they'll be on board.

It REALLY sounds like your wife is coming out of the fog very quickly.

Talk to your parents. Let them know that you need and love ALL of your family, and would appreciate their support.

She just sent the letter below to my folks. I will speak to them tomorrow. Things are certainly looking good.

The kids are looking forward to seeing you next weekend, and I am glad that you are still coming despite the circumstances.

Mine and xxxx marriage has been suffering for a long time. I found myself very lonely, and at a particular point I was especially in need of companionship and I was vulnerable. At that time, I committed a reprehensible act, and I was unfaithful to xxx and our marriage.

My explanation does nothing to excuse my behavior. I have deep sorrow and regret for my actions and for the pain I caused xxxx and anyone else touched by my infidelity. xxxx has been extremely dedicated to me, and wants to continue our marriage in spite of my conduct.

I have recommitted myself to xxxxx and our marriage, and together we are working to build a strong relationship that will thrive like never before. We have been working with a psychologist to not only get past this obstacle, but to also repair the problems in our marriage that led to my despair and betrayal. We have been spending time together and becoming more involved in each others lives. xxxx has been participating more in my activities, and I plan to become involved again with his friends, and try to conquer the challenges associated with their judgments. I also hope to continue a relationship with you, and I hope that you can find the ability to continue to accept me as part of your family.

Things are looking good. Now off to the party and to celebrate.

WOW, all I can say is WOW. The fog has cleared. I'm very hopeful for your marriage.

Wow exactly. Man, this is such good news! She has earned my respect, she womaned up to your parents, she's got ovaries!

I think you have BOTH won, as well as your children. Way to go!

Outstanding! Shock, looks to me like you are going to have a one in a million kind of marriage. Your lady seems to be coming out of the fog quickly and is using her noggin again instead of giving in to the "loneliness" and whatever else was causing your marriage to "suffer." Now, if you don't find out what those things were, and fix them, I may just come out to Arizona and plant my size 11-triple wide boot where it’ll get your attention most effectively. Kapeesh?

Do you know why she was feeling those emotions? You need to find out ASAP. Remember, pardner, whatever was bothering her was real to her, whether it was to you or not. Do you have a copy of HNHN? Perhaps you should invest in a copy, bring it home to your wife and start to work WITH her on getting your marriage back on track.