First of all, I want you to know that I feel like it is wonderful that you have such a support group.

But this is what I was afraid of about your situation.

If your H is anything like mine, and my H is still this way even though not a wayward anymore, the LAST THING he would like is other men "telling him" what to do without him asking first. ADMIRATION is my H's no. 1 emotional need and he has a HIGH NEED for RESPECT..I know, don't GAG at me saying this about a WH..but in coaching with STEVE, he learned this about my H and that is why I had to be sensitive about this in working MY PLANS.

It is important to CONSIDER your H's particular personality style and particular needs....

But your H does KNOW what he needs to do to reconcile....

He's not there yet...far from it...

STICK WITH THE B...

but at this point, doesn't he kind of have to earn that respect to some degree?

I see your point LOGICALLY.

But I'm referring to the MBers' perspective.

I found it helpful to STUDY the books HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS and SURVIVING AN AFFAIR where the Harleys explain the Emotional Need for Admiration. Even for a WH, it is recommended for the WW to evidence her ability to meet this need if it was an emotional need that was being unmet by her.

The need for ADMIRATION usually is a major one for men. I learned the HARD way and it is MAJOR for my H. It is our job as wives to meet this need...PERIOD.

You are in PLAN B so are not evidencing your ability to meet his needs.

However, your goal is RECOVERY of YOUR MARRIAGE so you do need to be sensitive to your H's particular emotional needs.

A part of him is highly embarassed by what he is doing so in order to EVENTUALLY recover..if that is your goal..you want to be careful not to rub his face, so to speak, into his BADNESS...

You want to expose..but you don't want him so embarassed and demeaned that he can't return...

It's a REAL BALANCING ACT, I know.

I hope I'm making this clear.

My H always focused on wanting not to be "BEAT UP" by others and wanting to be able to eventually hold his head up again in society. He might have stayed in his "HE// HOLE" if I hadn't have somehow made it SAFE for him to find his way back...

I know now, it's called PRIDE.

Steve said my H had a lot of "PRIDE" which he treasured but was in fear of TOTALLY losing...

honestly, i feel like because God has given me grace this year to keep my heart soft and not bitter - that i could do that. i see what you're saying, and have read it elsewhere in his articles - that demeaning or 'punishing' him would in the end only be destructive to the marriage. i get that. i could make it safe for him to come back - when he is ready. but i think we're on the same page that none of this matters right now, correct? steady ahead with planb - no contact..?

i am curious though; you keep mentioning 'if that's my goal'. i guess right now i feel like yes, ideally that's my goal. but it's also kind of hard to picture - with him as he is now. i don't want to fight for a marriage to an alien. if it continues to be 'all about him' then no, that's not my goal. but really only time can tell that, correct? because he is still in the fog?

i think what's feeling stronger in me today is more clarity in what i will/won't accept for him - or any husband! and what i heard coming from their meeting today - definitely unacceptable in my book. it is nice to start having some personal standards that i actually feel good about having - not guilty!! :-)

mimi- did you see my question about a wayward PA? since my WH is diagnosed as both PA and narcisstic, it does feel like the odds are against us sometimes. but i have also seen a HUGE God do huge things in both are lives thus far..

Phoenix, you have to set steps that he MUST take in order for him to come back. Otherwise, it could very much be a false recovery. He has to be broken and completely remorseful. You have to make a list of requirements that he has to make in order for him to come back. SMB posted her list, but I'm posting it again to remind you that you cannot just take him back with a few sorries and (temporarily) breaking up with the OW. Here is here list, but you can make your own, but it should not be far deviated from this list:


1) No contact letter that I read and mail.

2) Confess fully the details that I need.

3) Apology for the affair and the hurtful actions that followed.

4) Apology to children.

5) Individual counseling, marriage counseling, and family counseling to rebuild the many broken relationships.

6) Weekly accountability to three men that I choose or agree to.

7) Attend church weekly.

8) Provide to me all cell phone records and Mastercard account records for the last year.

9)Provide cell phone records every month, and provide computer access and passwords.

10)Complete, radical honesty about our entire history together.

11) Complete, radical honesty in the future.

12) Honesty with your parents about your affair.

13) Commit to eliminating any activities that interfere with time necessary for us to rebuild our relationship and the relationships with our children.

14) Account for all hidden assets/money within the company.

15) Take a polygraph test with an administrator that I choose.

16) Sign a post-nuptial agreement that states you will sign the house over to me, provide a lump sum for me to invest for retirement, and possibly sign a large portion of the business to me if we ever divorce. (The details would be written by my lawyer.)


In case you're wondering, SMB's husband did all that and more.

Making a list was SMB's choice and I respect that but is not recommended by the Harleys.

I was specifically directed by Steve Harley to be BRIEF and succinct with my WH.

The WH's mind is so foggy.

Sit tight now.

Rest in your PLAN B and keep PRAYING.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart. Turn your WH over to him.

P,

I need to clarify some things here. First off, Mimi is right. My list of requirements was not from the Harley's or the books, although we are counseling with them currently.

I came up with the list because I had been through one false recovery and refused to go through any more. I was "done" with my marriage, unless God totally intervened and it was undeniably a "God-thing". Hence, the list...a tough list that my FWH would only complete if God had laid him flat out on the floor. That was MY miracle.

A friend here on MB suggested a couple boundaries I should require, and that prompted me to consider what I REALLY NEEDED to be able to begin rebuilding a loving relationship. My list was our starting point.

However, you do need to protect yourself from a false recovery. That would be incredible painful for you and your children. I know, I've lived it and so have my children.

I don't necessarily agree with Mimi about the admiration part (and I say this with muchg respect to Mimi). She is sharing what the Harley's advised to her, and that should be seriously considered. I share just my personal experience in this area. My FWH's #1 need is admiration (tied with SF). I knew that years ago, and admiration and respect go hand in hand for him. THAT IS the reason I exposed fully to those people in his life that he wanted admiration and respect. He is sitting with me here agreeing that this was a very important key to him becoming soooooo broken.

You'll have to find that balance on your own, and it sounds like you really do have a good hold on your boundaries.

It sounds like your pastor is somone who you can count on...perhaps a great intermediary for your family???

Your WS is feeling the pain of Plan B. This is a good thing. But it is not time to alleviate his pain, and you are fully aware of that.

P.S. Please be aware that BestAngel aka BestAdvisor aka BestAdvisor1 is consider a troll by most on this board.

And her statement that enough pressure has been put on this affair and it won't last long....well, that's what we all hope for you, of course, but none of us know that for sure. Sounds sweet, but nothing to back it up.

Wow, this is an interesting conversation and something I have thought a lot about lately.

I agree with what each of you have said about it in some ways.

I think it comes down to the BS's own need to see proof of a genuine change in the WS, the level of accountability they will feel safe with, etc. vs what the WS would be willing to do.

I understand the things about the WS maybe having admiration or respect as one of their most important needs and how that may run counter to what the BS may need the WS to do in order for reconciliation. The chances of full recovery are a little trickier probably in those cases.

In some cases (like mine) when there have been numerous adulteries, and numerous false recoveries, and where the WS has inflicted a lot of damage, maybe the possibility of real recovery just gets diminished to the point that it is no longer feasible?

I have a pretty long list of requirements for recovery now, even longer than SMB's. The list got longer each time my WXH cheated and each time he conned me into a false recovery...and also because he inflicted so much harm on our daughters. AND the longer he stubbornly refuses to acknowledge he did anything wrong and shows no interest in asking for forgiveness or wanting to reconcile, the longer my list grows...

What it would take for him to talk me into giving him another chance now is a lot more than it took him to talk his way back home in the past!

So while the list SMB has for her situation is what it will take for her marriage to recover, it may not take all those things for Phoenix's marriage to recover. In most cases what Mimi is saying may be all that is required. So IMHO what she is saying, and what the Harley's advised her is probably all that's needed in a lot of cases.

I hope this helps you understand BA? While there are some general MB techniques, the application to each individual situation may be a bit different. That's why it is advised to counsel with the Harley's or with a MC who employs MB principles.

One of the reasons it is advised to go into Plan B at some point is that staying in Plan A too long, being exposed to continued rejection from the WS while trying to do a Plan A to meet the WS's needs, can reduce the BS's love for the WS and desire to reconcile to the point that it would take more than the WS may be willing to do to recover. The more damage done, the more recovery work is needed.

Also, it is advised to not cave to false recovery promises, to stay in Plan B until all the Plan B letter requirements are met. Getting talked into allowing a false recovery and being burned when the WS goes back to the OP just makes it even harder for the BS to ever trust the WS again. And that decreased trust and increased hurt causes the BS to naturally lengthen the recovery requirement list in order to protect themselves.

It is possible to ask too much of the WS I guess - or to ask for the wrong reasons such as wanting to humiliate the WS for revenge. But IMHO the BS does need to not settle for too little. I know in my own experience plus in most cases I read about here, too often the BS allows the WS to come back too easily.

If the WS is really repentant and is not a repeat offender granting them greater grace makes sense. But if they fail to appreciate the second chance and burn the BS by going back to the OP, they also burn the bridge to recovery via the quick and easy route.

Phoenix (and BA) I hope I haven't just made it more confusing for you LOL. And I hope my situation doesn't cause others to give up hope in their situations. Again, BS's like SMB and I have longer lists of recovery requirements because of what we've been through.

mm - thanks for the ideas. good stuff to think about..
what my pastor continually says he wants to see in WH is
'God-oriented repentance'.

I feel like that is a good focus for me, and is definitely not what we saw this morning. i will work up a list if it gets to that point as well, just saying his statement is a good starting point for me (besides leaving OW, etc.).

i had asked my P earlier today what comes first; if my WH's desire to change/move might be a first step, before he's able to actually do it. he said, 'not anymore.' meaning, we've all given him those chances, all year. he has proven that only his actions mean anything.

off to look for that tattoo parlor now (that will do the inside of my eyelids with the phenomenal suggestion from earlier)..

!!

Mere..your explanation was GREAT!!

I think tailoring things to each particular situation is key.

I forgot to add that MY demandingness, controllingness and self-righteousness was what I NEEDED TO CHANGE.. so me evidencing anything which "looked like" a LIST or MANY DEMANDS in requesting my H to RECOVER would have been a big mistake.

Steve called me on this aspect of my personality/behavior and encouraged me to begin demonstrating those changes at the beginning of PLAN A...and I haven't turned back... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And my H wasn't a serial adulterer....one 2 plus year long-term affair..YUCK...

So SMB, it would have been a BIG MISTAKE for US and I am so happy to learn of your continuing RECOVERY...

LOL.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> you're doing great, Phoenix. And those eyelids will flutter once you start seeing those actions!!!! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Keep it up and realize that your situation is unique but that God can work that miracle regardless of the differences.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Phoenix and family}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Ace

i like you guys.

i had a fun night out with friends. i still feel happy tonight, despite the Enemy's attempt this morning to STEAL my JOY and strength.

a couple of my thoughts from today:

I realized today that God has given me the grace, and I have made the choices this year, to keep my heart soft. So that if a real breakthrough ever does happen, and God wants me to open that door, I am ready - I am able. How awesome is that? and if i need to keep walking through the D door, He can make me ready for that too. Awesome. That could not have happened if I had allowed bitterness, resentment, etc. to root. I see that clearly right now.

Also, God has been so prevalent in this whole year for me. Looking back, I can see His hand so much along the way. That I finally feel like I don't have to have all the answers! I trust Him to guide MY specific situation, just like you were saying above, rather than feeling the responsibility of finding the right 'formula'. Again, awesome. I have been a formula-finder all my life.

So, onward it is. Finally, expecting a good outcome for my life and for my boys, however it continues to unfold.

Best Angel = Best Advisor re-named?

just need to get this out:
lawyer told me today that when they were all talking WH told them it was just that 'his feelings are really hurt' that i changed the locks.

???????????

It means that he cares, which is good, but at this moment, it's just not enough to allow him to come back yet. Sometimes, it's suggested that he breks up with the OW and then wait a while before allowing him to come home, because you don't want to deal with him while he is still mourning over the end of his affair and the possibility of re-starting the affair.

Just try to enjoy yourself. You're in plan B and shouldn't let his actions/emotions bother you much.

Yes Belle - BestAngel is Bum Advisor.

"lawyer told me today that when they were all talking WH told them it was just that 'his feelings are really hurt' that i changed the locks."

LOL OK, I'm sorry but sometimes the things WS's say are just so funny... My WH was really upset that my lawyer wore a suit to court! Several times my WH blurted out to me how he could never forgive me for that?!?!? I can only presume it somehow hurt his pride and/or made him feel jealous that a very nicely dressed man was defending me (um for a fee - it's not as if my lawyer was motivated to stand by me for any other reason than $). Maybe I should have hired a female lawyer? Wierdness...

Hi Mimi: It sounds like the Harley's advice makes sense in your situation. Of course I understand why you'd want to have more requirements - after being hurt and wondering if he can be trusted. I guess it's what the WS does in response to the grace given, whether or not they stray again, that makes it necessary to require more the next time.

so yesterday WH finally got served with the papers; he called my lawyer today, calm as can be apparently - about what the next steps are.

i was surprised at how sad i felt all day about it. it's not like i expected him to turn around or something just from some papers; buy i guess i am surprised it had such little affect. i guess he's really just given up and forging forward.

i'm also surprised that he'd be SO upset about the locks being changed, and so carefree about getting served 'divorce due to adultery' papers, that name is OW! aaarrrgh. who can understand the wayward mind...

just feeling pretty hope-less tonight, i guess.

ALL of my presumptions about my WH were wrong...

You don't REALLY know what's going on with him...

That's the point of PLAN B...

Just because he was COOL with your lawyer doesn't necessarily mean this does not bother him...

We know he's not ready to end the affair. That's about all you REALLY know..and that's enough FOR NOW...