Mulan:

Very, very cool.

How many people were in the audience at the panel? Because I'm betting the wheel-2rning in some of those heads may someday help one of those people avoid the pain of infidelity - or at the very least help them 2 get grounded earlier if they don't.

I've never, ever "flirted", now that I think about it. Even as a young teenager - when I got the courage up 2 say a word 2 a girl - I was respectful. I always thought I was just shy, because my friends were more brazen. But on the few occasions I tried 2 emulate them, I felt fake and awkward.

I've been 2 Hooters a 2ple of times. The food ain't all that great. Neither was the conversation. And I don't remember seeing that much makeup outside of the cosmetics aisle at Wal Mart.


Or:
(snifs at the air...) "Tide must be out."

-ol' 2long

Please do not ever be ashamed of being called "jealous" when some stupid b**** is pawing and drooling over your husband.

I do not understand why calling someone "jealous" in this situation is supposed to be a taunt and an insult.


Well this is the "renter" in me (which I am working on changing BTW <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). I wanted my H to "sacrifice" the ego boost he was getting from her by telling her himself. I know now that I should have spoke up in the first place. I never want to go through that again. it was horible.

Me too!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Heres' a little more, for any of you still interested:


I said the word "boundaries" while talking to the high school girls, and they seemed to know instantly what I meant.

That's in marked contrast to my husband's corporate workplace - where I worked, too, for many years - where way too many of those people have NO boundaries at work. And I can tell you that the higher up they are, the worse they are about ignoring boundaries.

They've convinced yourselves that they are all so smart and special and invulnerable that they don't need them. Boundaries are clearly for weak and fearful and old-fashioned people who are afraid of what they might do. (I've actually heard my husband say that.)

And besides, it's just soooo much more fun to live without boundaries when you've got flirty little hotties for co-workers!

So, instead of relating to each other AND TO EVERYONE'S SPOUSES with the RESPECT that healthy boundaries would provide, they all insist on dancing on the edge of the cliff with their endless flirting, their private off-site lunches, their dinners, shows, outings, bars, alcohol and hotel rooms and their HARD-CORE INSISTENCE on keeping their spouses OUT.

And then they can't understand the torment their spouses go through by being forced to watch all that cliff-dancing and being powerless to stop it - unless we get a divorce.

My husband has sometimes sneered at me about being "righteous, superior and judgmental" because I do not flirt with and pursue other men.

Which only tells me that he doesn't get it and never did, because I will readily admit that I am just as vulnerable to cheating as anyone else. We are all hardwired to be open to attractive people and I am no different. That's not "fear" talking; that is merely RESPECT for the very human creature that I am.

That's why I have had good boundaries in place ever since the college days. I was a pre-vet major at both Southwest Texas State University and Texas A&M University in the early 1970s, and I was often the only female among a whole class full of men - cowboys, at that!

But I had NO PROBLEM AT ALL getting along with all those men. They treated me with courtesy and respect and because I did not flirt with them, they did not flirt with me OR disrespect me.

And on the other hand, I dated one of them once, so it's not like I wore a burqa and never talked to any of them.

It's just that I learned very quickly that there is a huge, huge difference between "being friendly and courteous" and "flirting".

My husband and his co-workers clearly never learned this OR they simply do not care.

The world is full of male "honeys" too - and they're even more readily available for sex and dating than women are for lonely men. And I am so starving and angry and neglected and lonely, and have been for such a long time, that I'm well aware I am real, real, vulnerable to such things.

I'm just sorry that my husband and his coworkers have no understanding of this, and indeed don't WANT to understand it, and so continue to dance on the edge of that slippery cliff at every opportunity.

But gee, they all insist it's purely bad luck that so many of these wonderful, wonderful people have insane spouses and marriages in the toilet.

Just bad luck.

The moral of the story is, "Learn the difference between being friendly and being a flirt. You ignore the difference at your peril. It will cost you the respect of people who are forced to deal with you, it will only attract sluts and trash, and it could well cost you your marriage and family and maybe even your career."



Love dat!
Mulan

I am very similar to you Mulan. I am a friendly person and speak to everyone but I have never been a "flirty" person (except with my H of course <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). I have set high personal "boundaries" for myself in every R I have been in. You just should not "flirt" with members of the opposite sex when you are married PERIOD.

It amazes me to see how many people in the workplace who are exactly as you are saying above (both male and female). They just don't get it.

People like that would not last in my company, and I work for the third largest employer in the world. We must be a really boring business if this is how the rest of the work world acts. Yunk! And in the branch office I run, this type of employee would never make it through their three month trial period.

I'm very proud of the company I work for because of the way it is so family oriented and treats all people with respect. We even have training on how to treat, respect and relate to peoples of other cultures, ecconomic, racial, gender, etc.

I admire the great people of the world who are of an intelligence that they would rather share ideas, dreams, hope, aspirations than flirt sexually like people who got stuck in the phallic stage or suffered some other misfortune or lack, so that they missed intellectual and personality development.

LOL, that's my rant! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You know I think it must have a lot to do the people at the top of a company on what is accepted and fostered as far as inter-company relations.

The heads of our company are based in a foreign country and are of a spiritual, development mindset. I even had the pleasure of working with the VP of the U.S. division and he is about the most respectful, spiritual person I have met.

Must have a lot to do with the company mentality. Everything trickles downhill, good or bad, I suppose.

You know I think it must have a lot to do the people at the top of a company on what is accepted and fostered as far as inter-company relations.

EXACTLY...the culture of the company comes from the top. If they foster an environment where flirting and inappropriate contact is the norm...that is exactly what will happen.

It is quixotic, at best, to think that people at the bottom of the organizational chart are the ones that can change the corporate culture within that organization.

People need to work where their own personal values are mirrored within that organization. If the company's values don't match your own...well, it's time to move on.

We all have the power to remove ourselves.

committed

Glad you brought up this topic.

I think one of the reasons my WW won't agree to be transparent (aside from the obvious), is that she has consistently worked in an environment where flirting, etc. is ok'd. She doesn't want to have to explain to me why this co-worker e-mailed this or that inappropriate thing. Afraid that I will take it "out of context" or make a "big deal out of nothing". Flirting is not nothing.


Maybe. But I really think people get it. They just don't want to admit they get it and they are still doing it.

Mulan,

You know of course that you and I share so many of the same struggles. I occasionally even stay away from your posts because I empathize so deeply and all my buttons get pushed.

"Flirting is always sexual"

Wow....You bet it is. What a powerful and absolutely true statement! And your litmus test (when was the last time you flirted with your family) is pure genius. Would you mind if I "borrowed" this?

hey star*fish,

Thanks so much for the kind words. Please feel free to use anything useful I may have come up with. I think your letter was brilliant and I may well steal it to use in the future - I could have written every word myself and it's exactly how I feel, too.

Too bad his company would never have the cojones to print it in the company newsletter (which H has tried to convince me they don't have anymore, entirely forgetting that I worked at the damn place for eight years and there's no way they'd ever drop their big social pat-ourselves-on-the-back newsletter. They just put it on-line so spouses have no chance of seeing it.)

I liked Shirley Glass's book very much, too.

Whenever news stories come out about people like the Red Cross CEO who lost his job, I always want to comment that it's not "gay marriage" that's a threat to family values - it's crap like workplace flirtation and dating and more that is fueling domestic violence and causing huge numbers of divorces.

I would love to see even one of these dozens of Presidential candidates come out as anti-cheating as a way to prevent divorce and domestic violence.

And maybe it will rain butterflies and unicorns out here in the desert tomorrow, too!

(I live in AZ now, not Texas, but hey I am still so happy that Texas A&M beat tu last week!)

I still post here in the hope of helping somebody else. I'm glad when I can. Thanks again.
Mulan

Mulan thanx so much for starting this thread!

We have an adultery/divorce epidemic going on in our culture right now and a major contributing factor is that so many of the activities that lead to adultery are considered OK to do.

I remember seeing a list somewhere online with 30-some thigns that can lead to adultery. MOST of the items on the list are considered 'safe' by most folks; in fact at first I didn't see the harm in some of the things listed. Almost everything on the list would get you the 'jealous' label if you objected to it.

I am seriously considering offering workplace workshops to companies to help them reduce sexual harrassment AND coworker adultery problems. If I do this project I will invite the spouses of the employees to attend too. Of course, the key selling factor to the comapnies will be to reduce the risk of sexual harrassment lawsuits and to increase employee productivity and professionalism... I of course will be infusing the project with my own anti-adultery agenda.

This topic is very interesting to me.
I will be back LOL

The sexual harassment part is good, of course, but the truth is that sexual harassment is only defined as UNwanted attention. It's pretty darn hard to prove when the participants have obviously been extremely enthusiastic and willing about all of the attention and activities.

But you could add something about, "Prevention of lost time and absenteeism due to upset and dysfunction in the employee's marriage, and due to the expense and trauma of divorce - to say nothing of the terrible emotional, physical and monetary cost of domestic violence. All of these things have a strong correlation to infidelity." (ask any cop or divorce lawyer)

You mentioned professionalism, and you could ask these employers if they have any idea of how much their phone lines, computers and email systems are being used every day not for working, but for flirting and hooking up.

Ask them how much is really being spent on unnecessary trips - or on bringing along an unnecessary associate -- so that a couple of co-workers can have a few days in a fine city enjoying the best hotels, bars, restaurants, shopping and shows WITH each other and WITHOUT their spouses.

I think this workshop would be a fantastic idea and is desperately needed. Anyone who doesn't think so should read this board for a while - we've got traumatized people here from all over the world and from all walks of life, and many of them have no one else to talk to who will take them seriously.

If you get this workshop ready to go, I will send you the name and address of my husband's very large American corporation and you can offer it to them.

I'm sure the silence you receive in return will be deafening.

I honestly believe these people would not have the first clue of how to manage their company culture if flirting and dating and hooking up between married employees in the workplace and on trips was suddenly being discouraged.

The damn place would have to go out of business, and I'm not kidding.

Let me know!
Mulan

Hi Mulan,

"The sexual harassment part is good, of course, but the truth is that sexual harassment is only defined as UNwanted attention. It's pretty darn hard to prove when the participants have obviously been extremely enthusiastic and willing about all of the attention and activities."

You're right... most ofthe time the participants in ofice flirting make it obvious they enjoy the attnetion instead of objecting to it. My observation has been that in the rare cases that somebody objects to that sort of attention, most of the employees and bosses will side with the flirter and just think of the person complaining as a troublemaker or prude. But since there have been some successful sexual harrassment cases companies feel pressured to warn their employees and have policies against the same sort of things that constitute flirting. The bosses at one of my jobs had to all go to a workshop recently about inappropirate behavior in the workplace that could be interpreted as sexual harrassment. Hopefully such workshops will reduce the inappropriate behaviors some. And even when the participants are willing it can still be objected to by fellow coworkers on the basis of fear of favoritism?

You are so right about this. At my H's company, anyone who did this would be labeled NOT A TEAM PLAYER (and at that place, there's nothing worse and somebody who's NOT A TEAM PLAYER.
Mulan

A most EXCELLENT point Mulan!:

"But you could add something about, "Prevention of lost time and absenteeism due to upset and dysfunction in the employee's marriage, and due to the expense and trauma of divorce - to say nothing of the terrible emotional, physical and monetary cost of domestic violence. All of these things have a strong correlation to infidelity." (ask any cop or divorce lawyer)"

A most EXCELLENT point Mulan!:

"But you could add something about, "Prevention of lost time and absenteeism due to upset and dysfunction in the employee's marriage, and due to the expense and trauma of divorce - to say nothing of the terrible emotional, physical and monetary cost of domestic violence. All of these things have a strong correlation to infidelity." (ask any cop or divorce lawyer)"

But unfortunately these days too many people just assume ANY problems esulting from adultery and divorce are caused by the BS 'not handling it right'...

There's the expectation that adulteyr and divorce are OK and that the adulterers are to be shielded from any negative consequences.