Background:

My wife and I met in college. She was a freshmen (towards the end of the year), and I was a junior. I have had one serious relationship before her, a girl I dated through 3 years of high school and a few months into college. She had never had a serious boyfriend before. We took it relatively slow, and eventually did get into a sexual relationship. She had never had sex before, but I had with my previous commitment. Our relationship overall was great, and we had a lot of fun together.

I graduated one year before her, and took a job near our home towns, which of course was around 550 miles from our college. During the summer before her last year at school, we got engaged. We had a bit of rocky year, which I kind of expected considering we were doing the long distance thing. It was tough knowing that she was there hanging out with friends etc (most of which were guys since it was an engineering school). But anyway, I thought things went okay, and overall they did. I was very stressed the whole year as I was stuck so far away at a job I didn't like very well, so I had lots of time to think what might be going on up there, as well as her telling me about one of her friends trying to hook her up once or twice. I was very afraid that she would get attatched to someone else who she was spending time with. I know that it is very easy for that to happen in a long distance relationship.

After she graduated, she got a nice job offer in another state, so I found a job and we moved in together. A year later, we were married, and another year later we moved out of our apt and into a house. We have had our ups and downs like any married couple. Although she enjoys sex, she was never really THAT into it. We definately have a good sex life but I never thought it was a really important thing to her.

Anyway, we've been married for almost 10 years now, and together for something like 14. A few nights ago we were having a few drinks, and for some reason I asked her if she ever messed around with "Mike" or anyone else while she was in school.... her last year of "Freedom".

Mike was a guy that one of her "friends" was trying to hook her up with in her final year of school. I hounded her about Mike several times over the years we have been married, because he was very persistant (brought her flowers, etc, which she always told me about). She also said that she always told him she was taken. She really wanted no part of it.

Anyway, to the question she said no, but had a bit of a guilty look on her face. I said "WHAT???"..... so she told me.

A week or so before the end of her school year (Keep in mind we were engaged that whole year), she was in some friends dorm room having a few drinks. It was her, two guys, and one of the guys girlfriends. The unattatched guy she knew somewhat well, and he was in her department in school so they often saw each other in class. I knew him as well when I was in school, in fact we probably all had lunch together a few times when I was still at school. The "couple" kicked them out since his girl was there, so the remaining two went down to her room (a bit tipsy) to watch TV. One thing led to another, they wound up kissing, and eventually had sex (which she said was really bad, lasted 10 seconds, etc.).

She thought it wouldn't bother me now, considering it had been so long, and that's the only reason she told me. When I asked why she hadn't told me before, she said it didn't mean anything, it was a stupid mistake, she regretted it immediately, was ashamed, etc, and didn't want to lose me over such a stupid thing. However, she did mention that in one way, she was a little bit happy that it happened because she had never been with another guy sexually. After more discussion between us, she thinks she was probably just trying to make herself feel better the next day by coming up with that.

The problem is, she told me a couple of months ago and it is still bugging the ****** out of me. I trusted her completely, I NEVER thought she was even capable of doing something like that. She was the type of person that thought it was gross/nasty to kiss someone you weren't in a relationship with, in fact we didn't kiss for probably a couple of months after we started dating. You have to know her, but she ALWAYS does the right thing. She said it was partly to blame on the alcohol, which I can understand, but she also said she wasn't totally drunk and she was aware of what was happening. I was so not worried about a one night stand, but I WAS frightened about her getting close to another guy that year and ending it with me.

I can't help but feel like she wasn't absolutely and totally in love with me. It really bums me out and I'm horribly disappointed. Now my happy memories of college make me think of her cheating on me. Any time our school comes up in conversation, it makes me think of it. When we have sex, it pops into my mind sometimes.... I picture her with him. In fact, the last two weeks have been worse for me, and it's a constant topic of discussion whenever we are together.

I never thought this would be us, she has apologized profusely and knows how bad it is making me feel.... but I can't seem to stop feeling this way. I keep thinking that it was only one darn week before she graduated, in fact I went to see her graduate with her family, never knowing this happened only days before (She wasn't sure HOW many days, it could have been the day before I saw her!) Couldn't she go a few more days!?!?!?! I just can't understand. It's just not like her AT ALL to do something like that. It's like a nightmare that won't go away.

When I ask her why (and believe me, I have asked A LOT over the last few weeks), she really can't answer. She just said he was flirting, she was kinda flattered and drunk, and it just kinda happened. She says it wasn't pre-meditated, she didn't expect anything to happen when they went to her room. (I bet he did, but that's another story). She said she had pretty much blocked it out of her mind and doesn't remember many details. She specualtes that she might have let it happen once it started mainly because she had never been with another guy, it was her last days of school, etc etc etc, and knew I would never find out.

Am I wrong to be feeling this way? Should I just drop it totally?

I want things to go back to "the way they were before". I almost wish she would have never told me at this point. We really had it good and all of our friends were envious of our great relationship. But now, when I see her, I feel resentment, and I picture her with him. I start asking questions over and over. I feel like I have to know all the details to put closure to it, and of course it was so long ago she can't remember much. I feel like she should have been turned off when he started to kiss her, not flattered!

There are times when I think I should email this guy and see if he can tell me more! I'm guessing that would be a bad idea....

I also can't help wondering if we would be married today if she would have come clean before our wedding. I'd like to think I would have married her anyway, but how does one know?

Thanks for any help.

Dear Help,

I am sorry to hear that this happened. Your post sounds somewhat like my H and our situation (except I was the one who was with an ex-bf very early into our dating).

Anyway - My first thought is that you two were engaged and committed when this happened, and that is wrong. It sounds like your wife did an impulsive thing at 21 years old, that she says she now regrets.

However, you say that you have been happily married for 10 years...

Why bring it up? Was it something that you suspected intuitively?

(I have to admit, I'm asking these questions selfishly to help me figure out my H's POV in our situation)

My guess is that your wife feels awful for what she did. But please look at the past ten years of your marriage...doesn't that count? Now you know, and you say you wish you didn't. I hope that you can work through it with your wife, and get counseling if necessary.

I agree....


Honestly, I'm not sure. I guess I always just assumed that maybe she got drunk at a party and wound up kissing Mike or something. He was always on the offensive from what it sounded like, and since they were in the same department, they were at a lot of the same functions. In fact, she skipped a lot of parties that he was at on my encouragement. I never really suspected she did anything. In fact it was unbelieveable shock when she told me what actually did happen.


No problem, we're all here to help each other.


I'm sure she did and does feel awful. Of course the last 10 years count, and that's why I'm not running out the door. That doesn't stop the pain though, and at times it just seems like things will never be the same. She has actually been to counseling a couple of times since this happened to try to help herself deal with me better. I am supposed to see her counselor tomorrow, we'll see how that goes. I just wonder if I can ever look at her the same way again!

Are you my H? Lol! Just kidding.
I've been going to counseling and he is going this week.

I think the difficult part is that you don't see her the same way but your wife probably feels like she IS the same person. She is who she is, the person you have loved and been happily married to for ten years.

Just something to think about, and to hopefully motivate you to go go to counseling and move forward...what if she left? Is this worth ending your marriage over? NOT saying you are at that point - but think about the alternative of letting this eat at you.

Be sure to read through the articles and basic concepts here. Its difficult in your situation because the Plan A/Plan B of no contact with the lover, etc. don't apply in this case. She has had no contact with him (correct?)and has otherwise been faithful and loving to you.

Maybe you should be my OW. lol.

I know in the grand scheme the whole thing is petty.

I know she is the person I love, but I'm not sure she was the person I loved back then when we were engaged. That person could never let that happen, drunk or not.

I have honestly thought about being apart from her. This is the first time in 10 years I have thought that way. In some ways, I think the only way the pain can totally go away is if I am without her. However I think it would hurt even more to be without her! So I feel trapped....

How does one choose between hurting and worse hurting?

Well, *that person* did let it happen. I think - similar to what my H is dealing with - is your image of someone vs. the reality.

What is the reality now? How has she been as your wife?

I think you have your answer: you don't want to be without her. You could leave and start over with someone new - but everyone has faults. Whoever you are with next is going to have a flaw - maybe not this particular one - but it will be something that you did not know about before (I'm quoting one of our MC's here, what she said to my H as he is contemplating divorce).

HelpCoping, I can understand your situation, and even relate to it in a way, as I've gone through a similar experience with my FWW.

It's a difficult situation because, while the pain is still very fresh for you, and the last 10 years of your relationship can actually seem like a lie, as far as your W is concerned, it happened a long time ago. It's great that she can actually empathize with your feelings now - take that as a good sign!

All I can say is, from my own experience, it will take a while, but you WILL get over it.

You would be amazed at how many people come here with this situation. I must tell you a bit of a joke to help sort out what I am about to say.

These two old cowboys are sitting on the railing of a rodeo, with their boots hooked on the railing watching as this guy is getting ready to ride a bull. The guy on the bull is wrapping and rewrapping the lead around his gloved hand trying to get a good a grip as possible. His friend is steadying him on the bull and talking to him. The friend is telling him "ok, you have the lead and if you stay on the bull for this ride you cannot be beat. It is really simple, stay on the bull."

One of the old fella's on the fence looks to the other and says "that old boy over there is about to learn the difference between simple and easy."

What you have to do is simple. You must realize you were not married yet. You must realize that she apparently does love you and wants to remain married to you. You must realize that at 21 people do dumb things, and yes hurtful things. You must realize that your marriage and family is more important than your feelings of hurt for something that happened over 10 years ago and was before you married.

It is simple really, BUT...it is not easy.

Now in my mind what might help you is to list the reasons you are really hurt. Let me offer you some examples.

1. You feel like a fool for trusting her.

2. You feel like a fool because you were easily fooled (actually you weren't, you have had feelings about this for a long time.)
3. Your image of her on her pedestal has been ruined, and for us guys having our W's on a pedestal is much bigger than women seem to realize.
4. You have doubts about yourself (no well founded because the data says you are HER choice and have been since you married."

So make up the list and really look at these things in the light of day. She cannot make up what she did. She cannot undo what she did, but if and I say IF your marriage continued with deep love and respect on both sides for many years do you think that is worth more than what she gave away one drunken night in her dorm???

You have to answer these things and I know that while the intellectual answers and solutions are simple, they are not going to be easy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You are hurt, and probably hurt for what she has done to herself as much as you.

Do some reading here, take the time to heal and have patience with both yourself and her. In the long run she will pay a much bigger price that you, and I am guessing the reason she told you was she had always been paying this price.

If you want to heal YOURSELF and yes help her, forgive her. That does not mean you forget, it does not mean you don't take away some lessons, but if you set down her mistake, it will heal you in ways you cannot imagine right now.

Think about it, and remember there is a difference between simple and easy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

JL

I am so sorry this happened to you.

I understand completely how betrayed, confused, upset you must be. It doesn't matter that it was 10 years ago... it could have been 10 years or 10 minutes ago and the hurt is still the same. Yes. She was stupid and i'm sure she regrets it and is much more mature now. But i'm sure that doesn't aleviate the pain you feel.

I wonder if your hurt more by the fact that she slept with him, or that she was capable of doing something like that and then acting like nothing had changed when you saw her at graduation? I know when I found out my DH had an online profile 2 months after we were married, I was hurt not only by the profile, but that he'd had it for a whole month and never acted like anything was different between us. Realizing that the person you love, is capable of putting on such a heinous mask is just as devastating as the act itself.

I think it's more about trust, then what actually happened. I am guessing here, but I imagine that you're more hurt by the deception, than the act. If she'd confessed to you at graduation, was remorseful, etc. chances are you still would have married her. But at least you would have gone into it with all of the cards on the table.

I hope that this counselor is able to help you deal with this. My DH and I went to counseling recently and it was a disaster for me. She couldn't see or understand my pain or why I was still upset/suspicious. If he/she tells you to "get over it" (as our crappy counselor did) find yourself a new one.

I do think this is definitely something that can be worked out between you two. I don't think your wife is a horrible human being, at all. And I think the fact that you're so hurt by this and came here for help shows how committed you are to making your marriage even stronger than before.

You'll come out the other side. I know this, because unlike me, you're taking initiative NOW to make this better. Unlike me to let this linger/fester for over 4 years. Believe me, deal with this now or it will eat you alive. I can attest to that.

I realize she did let it happen, which makes me wonder if she was who I thought she was. I found your thread and read it as well..... and you guys weren't even exclusive at that point? Honestly I think he's being pretty unreasonable.

Overall she's been great. We have a good, honest, open relationship (or at least that's what I think!) Although she hasn't been overly affectionate (never has been) and I kinda feel like I might be missing out on that a little. I'm a pretty affectionate person. (I know, reverse of the norm huh?)

You're right, I don't want to be... but sometimes I feel like I almost have to be without her to feel better, this is on my mind 24/7. I know I would feel worse without her though.... but would it fade in time? Honestly, I don't want to start over, I'm sure I'll get over this. But it doesn't feel like I'm getting anywhere and it's probably been 3 months now.

Again I agree, but I would actually take just about any flaw over that one. This is honestly the one thing I didn't feel that I would ever have to deal with in my relationship. However, I understand that she learned from her mistake and I have nothing to worry about now... so do I take the chance with someone else that may cheat on my even more? It certainly can be a crazy world...

Hi -

I think what Just Learning said here is perfect.

Read through the Emotional Needs articles on here...make sure both of you are working on those while you go to counseling.

Have you sat down with your wife, and told her how you feel? For example, "I feel hurt/betrayed/whatever but I love you and want to work through this, even if it is difficult." ?

Good luck with your counseling session!

Oh, that train of thought sounds *so* familiar...!

I faced exactly that situation: Many years ago, the woman I was in a very serious relationship with (but not yet engaged to, much less M'd) confessed her A to me - said it was just about sex (the "A" consisted of a few bouts of SF with the OM), she was curious, and it didn't mean anything. She seemed sincere about having "learned her lesson", she promised to "never, ever do it again", and she seemed to really want to be with me, so I decided to take the chance and remain in the relationship, and we eventually got M'd.

Her 2-year A (1-year PA) from 2003-2005, after 13 years of M and two children together, was what brought me to MB!

Am I still trying to recover my M? Yes, but I do wish sometimes I could go back about 20 years or so and slap myself silly.

I'm going to address your email in a couple of seperate posts, because this is going to get long!

True, but we were in a VERY committed relationship of almost 3 years, and engaged for the better part of a year!
I agree. I agree again. However, the problem I have with this is that it JUST WASN'T HER. She was the type of person that thought making out with someone you weren't dating was gross! She would comment about drunk people at parties going at it like they were disgusting. I know she thought that way. So what could make her want to do this, especially the sex? It was a guy she wasn't even great friends with, basically a person from a group that she hung out with once in a great while. We didn't even kiss until we had been dating for like 2 months, and didn't get sexually involved until a long time after that. Was she more attracted to him than me?
I do realize that... however that doesn't make the hurt go away. And as a side note, it's just the two of us, no kids.

I agree with all of those, however let me add one:
5. Why wasn't she feeling horrible when he made a move on her? Although drunk, she still knew what was going on and knew she was engaged to a great guy! And here she was kissing a guy that she wasn't even interested in.... even though it took her and I months to kiss for the first time! She's honestly not even sure how drunk she was.... and some of the things she remembers are kind of haunting:

- Towards the beginning, she remembers him saying something about "We shouldn't be doing this", and her reply was "Yeah, we shouldn't be doing this". It was either shortly after they started kissing, or maybe just before.

- Before they had sex, she remembers him asking her if she was on birth control. Unfortunately, she was.... and no it wasn't for that purpose. During her 2nd year at school she was having horrible cramps and yes, I witnessed this several times. Actually at the time I'm sure I was probably pretty happy that the answer was birth control, but now I wish there had been another cure at the time.
I beileve it did, but then again she's never been an overly affectionate type of person. My world's been turned upside down and believing anything 100% at this time is a little bit difficult...

Not sure about this one, and this might get long! (Sorry in advance)....

This comment brings up the reason that she told me after all this time. This fall on a Saturday, we were working out in the yard. She was doing something, and I suggested a different way to do it. She blew up at me and I was like "Where did that come from!" She started crying and said she wasn't sure she wanted to be with me anymore. Ouch!

I threw a bit of a tantrum, and settled down and asked her to go inside so we could talk. She went over reasons she thought maybe we weren't right for each other, things she was unhappy about and that she had been unhappy for maybe a couple years now, how her current job really sucked, etc. All of things were easily fixable with work from both of us and communication, and her job was currently changing for the better. I asked her if she loved me, and she said yes, of course, but she still wasn't sure we should be together. When she blew up, she thought maybe we should separate for a bit to think. I didn't want that, I wanted to work on it.

I was devastated. After talking we both felt better, and we were on the right track from what I could tell. The next day was of course a rough day as well, but by the end of the day we were both feeling pretty good even though she still "wasn't 100% sure". We were having some wine, grilling, and reflecting on our years together, college, dating, etc, and I said something to the effect of "So since we're being honest, did anything really happen with Mike that last year". She always said he was a nice guy, etc, but wasn't interested, but I know he was laying it on thick. I used to ask her that stuff often, if anything ever happened that year, but I probably hadn't asked in years. Anyway, when I asked her this time, she just had a goofy/guilty/grin on her face, and I said "Who, Mike?" She just kinda looked guilty again, and shook her head. I said "Who???" about 5 times, and she said a guys name.

I was like what did you guys do? She wouldn't answer, so I said "What, did you have sex with him???" She tried to make light of it by saying "We were having fun, he was flirting, we were half-drunk etc". I said "You realize we were freakin' engaged???" I was soooooo mad, but I just kind of swallowed it due to the other problems we were working on, and I didn't want to jeopordize that healing.

She told me it didn't mean anything and was a stupid drunk mistake. She felt bad about it the next day, and even felt bad about it for a couple of years after it happened, but she blocked it from her mind and pretended it never happened. She said it is something that she doesn't even think of anymore and it's like it didn't even happen. At one point a while back, we were discussing one of my cheating co-workers, and she said it didn't even come to mind then. She never thought of herself as having "cheated".

Anyway, the next 3 days or so, I really went to work. I did things that I thought she would really appreciate. Made a long list of things to work on to improve our marriage, I spent hours and hours trying to remake a mix tape that I made her when we were dating (On CD of course, some of those old songs can be hard to find!). Brought her flowers, wrote her e-cards, etc. I felt like I was putting forth all the effort and she was putting in very little. I literally felt like I was dying. Wednesday night, she had a night out scheduled because she was changing departments at work. I thought she should skip it so we could talk and work on stuff. It would have been rather easy to re-schedule, her coworkers are always up for an evening at the bar. She didn't see the need to, so she went and stayed out until around midnight. I was dying the whole time wanting to talk.

The first couple of days, I did bring up the college episode a few times, and she really didn't want to hear about it. In fact she thought I should drop it because it was making it difficult for her to get over the other stuff. I did drop it after that for a while, maybe a couple of weeks.

I kept asking her if she was sure she wanted to be with me over the next couple of weeks, and eventually she agreed she was sure, and that she probably over-reacted from keeping her issues bottled up. After I felt things were good in that area, the cheating then really started to eat me up.

At this point, she really did start to understand what I was going through and wanted to help, but I still felt like she wasn't doing much to actually help. Maybe I was expecting too much, I dunno. She has held up over these couple of months and I have been doing a lot of crying/complaining/yelling, etc. It's been an emotional roller coaster and we are both exhausted, but she is hanging in there. However, I think I would be much further along on the healing path if she had done more in the beginning. When I was working on the first problem, it was basically every waking moment. I skipped lunches to work on stuff, to make lists, to do research. I used to go out with coworkers almost every day for lunch, and I didn't do that for weeks after this. On the other hand, she was putting other priorities first, or at least that's how I felt.

I wanted her to write me an email, letter, e-card, anything (or just talk), and tell me how she felt, what was going on, etc. I had sent her a few very long ecards telling her I didn't want to lose her and how much she meant to me. It took me weeks of badgering her to get a 3 line e-card.

I think if she would have grabbed me at the beginning when I first started to feel bad and looked me in the eyes and said "I'm so sorry, I feel horrible for what I've done, I'm afraid I'm going to lose you and I don't want to, etc etc etc" she maybe could have headed this off at the pass. But she didn't (she did say "I'm sorry" a lot and "I love you" a lot)... but that was about the extent of it.

And here we are.... it's still on my mind 24/7.

That's certainly what I'm trying to do! The fact is, I won't forget it, and can I live with that? I think so, but sometimes it certainly feels like I can't. I haven't cried about anything in years, and I've cried a hundred times in the last couple of months. I would almost rather have been told I have a fatal disease rather than this, because at least that would have been out of anyones control.

Thanks for your comments...... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I understand what you are saying, but I think I am much more hurt by the fact that she could sleep with him without being in love with him. We were starry eyed, deeply in love, ready to get married, etc.... so I feel like she should have been pissed off when another guy started hitting on her. In addition, she was so the opposite of a slutty get drunk and have sex girl. As for hiding it when she saw me? I can kind of understand that. I've tried to put myself in her shoes, and although I know telling me would have absolutely been the right thing to do, I'm not sure I could have done it, either.... In her mind, she screwed up, made a dumb mistake, and learned from it and wouldn't let it happen again, so she was "good to go". I might have felt the same way, especially at that age.
It's both of course. I would have been devastated to say the least by the act. I'm a much different person now than I was then. I was a fairly jealous person at one time, especially since I had a great/pretty fiance at a school where it was 75% guys. I'd certainly like to think I still would have married her, but I'm not sure how I would have reacted back then. It certainly would have helped to know more details which I'm sure she would have remembered at that time such as how drunk, what happened, details etc.... If she was completely remorseful and truly sorry I'm sure we would have worked it out, eventually. On the other hand, it was at a tough time in our lives, I saw her very little over that year, and maybe I would have blown up and she might have thought "All for the better" and dumped me... who knows. I can definately understand her not telling me, even though I don't agree with it. One small consolation is that she was so worried I would leave her that she didn't want to tell me.... that at least means she wanted to be with me!
Thanks for the advice, I'll keep that in mind. I'm a bit nervous as my appointment is in a couple of hours. Then, an hour later, we have a couples appt with the same counselor. I'm sorry yours didn't work out for you. Honestly I doubt it will help me much, I think it's just going to be a time thing.
I know she's not a horrible person, but it just keeps going through my mind "How can a girl that's viewed sex as a relationship only thing wind up having a one night stand, while engaged? I just can't seem to get past that.
Sure hope you are right and thanks for your comments!
R

I'm sorry to hear that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> One major difference I can see is that in my case, it was a one time thing (as far as I know I guess). It was spur of the moment and not pre-meditated. She was alone with the guy, tipsy or drunk, he started hitting on her, and she liked it enough that she didn't stop it. In your case, there was some thought put into the cheating..... Definately a different scenario assuming everything my wife is telling me is true.

Ouch. I'm so sorry to hear that. It makes what I am going through look like a non-issue.

Well I hope you can work out out, good luck!!!

One thing I would caution based on my unfortunate experience is... do not draw conclusiuons about your W's behaviour, and certainly don't assume that she's told you EVERYTHING.

I did exactly those two things, only to discover years later (just last year in fact) that she left out certain key parts of her story and allowed me to come to my own conclusions about the circumstances of her A... conclusions that turned out to be very wrong as I discovered to my dismay many years later.

Yeah, I'm starting to really consider that stuff. I will say I have beaten the subject to the point of exhaustion for both of us. I believe if there was more, she would tell me. I guess that's all I can do! I wouldn't tolerate it again. If I found out there was significantly more going on, or if it were to happen again, I think it would be over for us, and she knows it.

All I can do from this point is believe her, trust her, and go from here.... I just need to figure out how to do that!

Having said that.... does anyone think it's a horrible idea to contact the guy? I'd really like to get more information, if it's available. I do beleive she's telling me everything she remembers.

I know the name of the company he works for and have found his email adddress...

...well, there is the possibility that she may not, if she wants you to remain together and she thought that you'd leave her if she told you any more.



Never say never. I said the same thing after her first A, but here I am, trying to recover our M after even a worse experience than the first one.



Earning your trust back is something that SHE has to do. It's HER responsibility, not yours. Allow her to do it.

When my FWW had disclosed details of her previous A that I hadn't known before, I considered the same thing as well. Even went as far as getting contact information for several of the persons with the same name as the OM (unfortunately he had a very common first and last name - the list was quite long). Then my FWW mentioned something like it seemed like I was looking for a reason to leave her.

That comment got me thinking. Would I really leave if I turned up something else about her past? Or should my decision to stay or leave be based on what she was doing *now*?

At that point, I stopped my searching for more details about an A that happened over 20 years ago.

Yeah, I guess how would you ever know? The unfortunate thing is I used to have absolute trust in her, what she was telling met, etc, and now because of one stupid drunk mistake over 10 years ago, I no longer have full trust.



More power to you on that one, I am definately not in that situation. I have never been so depressed in my life, and this happened 10 years ago. There is no way I could go through this again, especially if it was more than a drunk mistake.


Good point!

Funny you say that, my wife said the EXACT same thing (Seemed like I was looking for a reason to leave). I don't think of it that way, I think of it as finding out the truth and bringing closure to it. Because it was so long ago and she can't (or doesn't want to) remember much, I feel like I need to know what happened and why to bring closure to it. If it really was 100% because she was drunk, I'd have a much easier time living with it probably. If it turns out she has been lying and sugarcoating the whole thing and they had marathon sex all night, I'm not sure I would still want to stay and work it out. If it turns out it was pre-meditated, I doubt I would want to stay. That's just too malicious of a thing for me to live with. I admire those of you that can get past something like that, but I know I would never feel the same way about her if that happened.[/quote]


I can understand that if you are willing to be with a person no matter what. I couldn't be with one that would repeatedly make me feel the way I have the last 10 weeks or so.....

You are accepting her story as the gospel truth then? Again, I caution against this. It's HER truth, HER version of events. It might not have been your version of events, if you were there to observe what was actually happening.

Based on my personal experience, WWs *will* rewrite history to focus the blame for their activities elsewhere, to broaden the blame, to minimize their choice to cheat. In the case of my FWW, the last time she talked about the first A, it was pretty clear that she was doing exactly that - leaving out details, changing things around, all to lessen the impact of her choices. When I indicated that her "story" of the A this time didn't match the story she told me so many years ago, she questioned my memory, even when I pulled out an old letter or two to bolster my version of events.

In your case, your WW is leading you to believe that it happened "because she was drunk". I would suggest that it happened because she allowed that situation to develop, and it started developing BEFORE she got drunk. I suspect that your gut is telling you this, and it's causing some conflict because it seems you *want* to believe your WW's story, yet you still want to find out more details about it. I know the *exact* feeling you're going though.

The question you really need to ask yourself before this drives you crazy is... does it make a difference now? Will you actually leave your W if you discover something else about her PA 10 years ago, or is your choice to stay with your W based on how she is now?



That feeling will pass, as long as your W continues to act in a way to rebuild your trust in her. Do not expect any overnight miracles though, and your W should not expect any either. It isn't called the Recovery Rollercoaster for nothing, you know...

Yup, same here.



I doubt that you'll feel the same way about her anyway. I still say give it time. You've been wounded, and wounds like this one take a long time to heal, and the rate at which it heals depends on what you and your W do now.



Don't get me wrong - there are very specific reasons why I stayed to try and work things out. On D-Day, I saw my WW as someone who was seriously in trouble and needed someone to turn to. I also didn't, and still don't, want my children growing up in a broken home. And I guess in some way I still care about my FWW, but it's not the same way I used to prior to her last A. I have decided to stay though, so I owe it to both my FWW and myself to do what I can to bring out the best in our M, and this is what I'm trying to do.

I need to feel the same about her, otherwise I fear we are doomed. I do think it will come with time. Believe it or not, there are a few times over the last couple of days, where I actually felt that yeah, it was no big deal. She was in college, I was hundreds of miles away, she was 22, she was drunk, and she made a really bad decision. These are actually the first times I have felt that way since I found out. I wonder if I would have been any stronger in a similar situation? I sure hope so.... but it really makes me wonder.



Having a family/kids definately would make a difference to me. We do not, so it would only be us that would have to get over it. I honestly believe it was a one time slip up in her case though (drunk, college, hadn't even seen me in months)... and I blame myself a little bit (not much, but a little). I should have made more efforts to go visit her a few more times in her final semester, but I knew she was busy with senior projects, and we were "almost there!" so I felt comfortable not visiting for a couple of months <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I appreciate your comments and I'm trying not to look at this blindly. I certainly hope my situation is different than yours. I wish you and your family the best of luck.

I have to say I'm a little surprised with the book that I typed up that I'm not getting a few more participants in the thread!

Best of luck to you as well <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.



The "Just Found Out" forum has less traffic than the "General Discussion" forum. OTOH, your thread stays visible for a lot longer. In any case, it's quality, not quantity, that counts <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

So what you are saying is my replies sucked? lol.... ;-)

It sounds like you're at least open to forgiveness and closure at some point.

As for seeing her the same way as before... ummm, o.k.

I know, for ME, I'll never see him as I did before. That "mythical" person is gone. I grieve for the loss of that man every single day.

A PP said that it's your wife's responsibility to earn your trust back. That's true. But make sure that your heart is open to receiving it again. I've come to realize, for me, that it's too late. That door has closed and no matter what he does to try to earn it back, my heart just isn't open to it.

BTW- how did your counseling session go? If you don't mind talking about it, that is (I understand if you'd rather not). Hopefully it was helpful.

Good luck to you!!

No, actually I haven't accepted her story as gospel truth which is why I'm still asking questions. I think you may have misread my comment, I said I *used* to have absolute trust in her, and right now, that is not true. Having said that, knowing her personality then and now, the story she is telling me is actually quite believeable. Why I am having a hard time believing it, I'm not sure. On the other hand, the story has evolved a little since the first day she told me. She didn't intend to tell me, it just kinda came out, and I think she was speculating a lot more when I started asking questions because she hadn't thought about it in so long. Who knows.


True, I would absolutely like to believe that it was 100% because she was drunk. Do I believe it? I dunno....


I'd like to think I would stay no matter what I found out, but I can't 100% say that. If I found out there was no drinking involved (or an insignificant amount), it was pre-meditated, or it happened more than once? I'm not sure I could live with it. However, I have no way of knowing these things 100% other than what she is telling me, which is why I brought up contacting the guy.... It's just hard to know how you're going to feel. When she first told me, I had no idea it was going to bother me this bad.



I hope you are right... because it sure doesn't feel like it right now.

Yes, knowing the details I believe to be true now, it is what I want. However, how do I ever know they are true?


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I know what you are saying, and that is depressing.


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> That is really depressing to think about. It makes me think she wasn't actually the person I fell in love with.


I'm sorry to hear that.


Ummm.... it was okay. Since this is the first time I went, I had a little over an hour session on my own first. W had seen her twice before. I was afraid that it would be akward and I wouldn't have much to say, but shortly after we sat down, I felt I needed to give her my version of the story. So I just started from the weekend my W told me and went from there. I talked for about an hour straight, we did discuss some things and my personality (I can be pretty obsessive about stuff, but I don't really feel this is a case of that!). I felt pretty decent after talking to her.

Then an hour later, W and I went back in together. W felt very akward, and later told me she wondered what the counselor and I were talking about in my private session, and if we were talking bad about her. Of course we weren't, I just gave my version of what happened.... but I could see how it might be akward.

Towards the end, the counselor asked if I felt I could ever feel the same way about W. (I lead her into that question with something I said, I'm sure), and I basically started crying. I think I said something like I dunno, but I want to.

Anyway, what came out of it is that I'm not supposed to obsess about it anymore. That doesn't mean I can't feel sad or mad anytime I want, but to limit the time that it is a #1 topic. I have been relentless (not intentionally) and I have been badgering W with the same questions over and over, basically from the time we get home from work until the time we go to bed. The counselor told me to limit it to a half hour or something every day, at a fixed time.

The problem is, the question I want answered most is "Why". Of course the answer is either "I don't know" or "I was drunk". To me, even if she was drunk, she should have still known how horribly wrong it was.

Hi HC, I saw your post on my thread and came to read.

I totally understand your concerns about what happened when you were engaged. It is an issue you're going to have to deal with. The pain will fade with time, I'm noticing that myself even now. Over the last few weeks I've actually had some nights where I just went to sleep without even thinking about it, much less dwelling on it. I'm a little over 3 mos past D-day, and I've still got a long way to go, so accept that the hurt is normal and part of the deal, and trust that it will fade. That's all you can do.

I think you should be much more concerned about what is happening in your M NOW!

I just find it a little unlikely that a drunken A 10 years ago is what is causing her so much stress that she's questioning your M to the degree that she is, breaking down in the yard and telling you she doesn't know if she wants to be with you and all.

You say she's been in counseling before you went as a couple. For how long? Why did she start going? As a result of this, or prior to her revealing this to you? Did the counselor encourage her to tell you the truth?

I just think you might be misdirecting your attention by focusing on the long ago A. What is wrong NOW? I think you need to be trying to get to the bottom of that, and I think that discovering that and dealing with that with your W will parrallel the path you will have to walk to deal with the A.

Sit and think about what you want. You don't want to throw away 10 pretty good years with your W over an isolated incident that happened 10 years ago before you were married. You've said as much. You know that, and believe that, so stop the negative thinking pattern, the "how could she do that?!" type of stuff. There's no real answer that will truly satisfy you. I've pondered long and hard into those questions to no avail and still lapse into that negative thought sink. I'm not trying to minimize your pain, that isn't possible anyway. But focusing on it is taking attention away from where it needs to be, and that is digging into what is really wrong in your marriage.

I wish you the best!

Thanks, I was hoping you would check it out! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sure hope you are right... I'm probably around 2+ months since finding out, and my situation is probably not nearly as serious as yours, and it hasn't been letting up for me yet. Pretty much every waking moment.....
You've got it a little crossed up here (No surprise since I pretty much wrote a book....) The A 10 years ago is a completely seperate issue from the "not sure if she wanted to be with me".... That issue turned out to be her letting some stuff build up and not talking to me about it, as well as some extra stress in her job. We're good on that front and got that worked out. It just happens that she also told me about the ONS the same weekend.
Actually, she went because of the ONS issue. She realized how bad it hurt me, and she didn't know the best way to deal with it. She went twice before asking me to go as well. I've been pretty much impossible to deal with and she needed help understandably. Yes, I believe the counselor encouraged her to tell me the truth.
I think we have it pretty much worked out what our problems are, they are typical married people problems ;-) We just let them bottle up and didn't work on them. We have a good direction now. The problem now is that I am so hung up on this, that the other problems are on the back burner. Luckily she understands.
I hear you, but easier said than done! This is exactly what I am trying to do. But in the end, if I can't let it go... then what? It's driving me pretty much mad.


Same to you, and thanks for your input.

Even when a person finds out 10 years, it is still hurtful. Betrayal is betrayal, and it will take a long time to get over it. Things will never be the same. That is the sad part.

On hopeful part is that your marriage will overcome this, and you will not be satisfied with how your marriage was before. Instead you will work through this and insist on a much better marriage.

Sure hope you are right, because it doesn't feel that way. I have been getting worse, not better. I just can't imagine her back then being attracted enough to another guy to do something like that. Makes me sick to my stomach to think about it....

I do understand.

You have to accept that she is human, and that she made a mistake. From what you have said, she certainly seems to view it as a terrible mistake.

I for one am very glad that my behavior when I was in my teens and early 20's is not continuously held against me now. Life would be very hard if it were. I am not the same person I was then, neither are you I suspect, and neither is your W.

Betrayal is tough. You are not wrong in being upset, but you have much to be hopeful for and you need to somehow turn your thoughts from the negatives to the positives. Its a challenge for many of us, myself included.

Thank again Tyk, wish you the best as well. Sounds like you are on the right track.

By the way, any more opinions on contacting this guy?

What do you hope to achieve by doing so? Do you have any reason to believe there has been any contact between them since college?

Only contact that she has mentioned is they emailed each other a couple of times after college when we started our jobs. Nothing of significance though. She's not sure who might have mailed who first, but she thinks it might have been him asking for some senior design project help from her company.

Anyway, what do I hope to achieve? Maybe fill in some of the blanks that she has left. How drunk was she? Seems to me, she probably wasn't very drunk by the time it all happened... but maybe I'm wrong.

Don't you know what you need to know? How will he know "how drunk" she was? How will you know how drunk HE was?

Do you really want this guy thinking about your W again?

"hmm. . .HC's W's marriage is on the rocks and apparently she still remembers me and that one night. . ."

Honestly I don't really care what he thinks.... but your point is taken.

My guess is he probably remembers things a lot better than she does. Maybe he'll offer that they weren't even drinking at all??

Well, after pleading that the details just don't add up, she finally gave me what (I hope) is the last info. I'll always still wonder though since this was so hard to get out of her.

I always knew she was a little bitter... maybe bitter isn't the right word, but something like that - that she had never had sex with anyone else and I had. I guess she had wondered about that a couple times during her senior year while we were apart.

So last night, she looks like she has something to say, and she says the other 'reason' was that she had never been with another guy and wanted to see what it was like. She said she wouldn't have done it if she had more time to think about it and wasn't drunk, but the opportunity was there, and she made a bad decision to take it, and felt bad after and even during a little bit.

She still says she had no idea something was going to happen when the two of them were headed down to her room. Probably surprising to all of you, but knowing her I actually do believe it. She was a little bit more than naive back in those days.

While I'm certainly not happy about it, I can understand it a LITTLE bit. She was a 22 year old girl who had been apart from her fiance for a good percentage of the year, her college career was coming to a close, she was about to move in with me and spend the rest of her life with me, she had never been with another guy, and she knew I had sex with my previous girlfriend. The funny thing is, sex was never really *that* important to her, so I can't understand why she would care what it was like with another guy. Any girls on the board want to chime in and say this is "understandable" and/or "forgiveable"?

I guess I just have to accept that it was a decision that she made under the influence that probably made sense at the time, but I think she realized it was a bad decision even before it was all over.

I asked her, "what if the sex had been awesome?"??? Would you have dumped me or felt differently about me? She says no. I have to wonder.

I think you have a lot to thank her for. My situation is different, but suppose your W cheated after you were married - that wouldn't be any better.

Anyway, I think your intense feelings about this will become more tolerable over time.

Your W can't change the past. But she has:

• finally told you the truth (and I'm sure it wasn't easy for her)
• recognized how much it hurt you and made a marriage-enhancing decision to seek counseling
• AFAYK, been faithful to you for 10 years

You've described your search for truth as 'relentless'. I can empathize. But if you really put her through the wringer before she chooses to come clean on her own, you run the risk that it will be harder for her to be truthful in the future. You want to encourage safe honesty. Shirley Glass's writing helped me understand this. If you tell her you'd never forgive a future indiscretion, then she may never be willing to come clean about one. If she flirted with someone at work and realized she crossed a boundary, wouldn't you want her to come to you feeling that she could safely tell you about this. This could make your M a lot safer.

Well, I'm optimistic for you. Your M has a lot of potential to be better than it ever was...

- WG

Thanks for your input, it is good stuff.

Honesty is the #1 most important thing for me.

Hi HelpCoping...

Same thing happened to me. My husband had an affair with one of my friends while we were engaged (in college). He planned to take the secret to the grave, but instead he told me... 17 years after it happened.

The basic reason he cheated was the same reason your wife told you: he had never experienced sex with someone other than me, and was curious.

He wrote about it on this thread (his username is "Messdup"). I'm not sure if it would be helpful to you, but here it is in case you'd like to read it:
My husband's confession

His affair while we were engaged had enormous effects on our marriage. Because of his secret, he withdrew from me. We couldn't talk to each other... he missed being close to someone... but because of the secret he couldn't reach out to me... so he had more affairs. You are really lucky to be dealing with this now before it snowballed.

Please thank her for being honest with you, and for not letting it lead her further away. You can work through this- if my husband and I can do it, than you can too!

PS. There is a woman here called "starfish" that said "if my husband's affair didn't end our marriage, my reaction to it would!" I found that to be true in my case as well.

Just beginning to read your husbands thread, it is very good. I wish my wife was able to express as well as him. She is having a hard time, because our situation is much different in some ways -

- In her case it was a somewhat drunk one night stand
- Wasn't premeditated, it just started happening and she didn't stop it
- She regretted it immediately afterwards (and maybe even during some)
- She is the type of person that doesn't dwell on stuff. She realized she made a bad mistake, and she put it out of her mind. Our marriage has not suffered at all, and I believe she hardly ever even thought about it. In fact, we had a great marriage until this surfaced!

So yes, it should be easier for us than for you two, however I'm still having a horrible time with it. What I can't understand is:

- Sex was never an important thing to her back then! Why would she want to at that point? She waited months if not a year to have sex with me! Someone she actually loved!

- She wasn't "into" this guy.... but somehow kissing started happening anyway. She was always the type that thought intimacy = love. How could someone with those ideals allow something so wrong to happen? Alcohol? I dunno... doesn't seem like that would even do it.

I appreciate you replying to my post, and would love to see more.

By the way..... I have not posted in a while, but I did it. I emailed the OM. In some ways I felt better, in some ways not. Not sure if I regret it or not. The major details add up (one night stupid thing, wasn't premeditated, just kinda happened, no romantic involvement). Some of the more minor details don't necessarily add up.....

-He wasn't sure if she was drinking at all, although he couldn't say that she wasn't.

-He thinks they actually slept together for a few hours after, where she says he left almost immedately

-He also feels like maybe it started before they went down to her room, but again he wasn't sure).

-His recollection of the discussion of birth control would lead me to believe that she did in fact want to go ahead with sex, where what she is telling me is that she wanted to stop at that point but felt she was in too deep already.

-Her description of the whole night bascially makes it sound as innocent as a one night stand could be (some "OK" clothed making out leading to some crummy sex). Although I didn't ask him what exactly happened, from what we did email about it seems like a little more than that was going on....

Again, neither of them can remember much clearly.... so I guess these details aren't important. Somehow, they are important to me though and I wonder if she doesn't actually know more and just doesn't want to upset me more. I think she is being honest and probably just doesn't remember.

OK... taking a stab in the dark here...



She was a virgin when she met you, right? Her first time can only happen once... of course she would only trust you, the one she loved, with that beautiful experience. Her behavior with the other man can't take that away from you.

I wonder if my husband would talk to you. I'll ask him. He has a similar take on his view of sex. I was his "first" although he dated dozens of women before meeting me. Some of them he practically had to beat with a stick because they wanted to go farther than he did. He wanted to save himself for "the one". Which was me.

But then... we had been engaged a year and our wedding wasn't for another year and a half... he started wondering if he was missing out on something? OW was there and willing... so it happened.

Maybe my husband will be willing to expand on that for you to help you understand how he saw these events as separate.

One thing that he mentioned in counseling was that he was angry that I had sex with another man (previous boyfriend) before he and I met. I was his "one and only" but he was "second" for me, and that really bothered him. I read at the beginning of your thread that you were with another serious girlfriend before you met your wife. Is it possible that she was trying to even the score? I'm just throwing out ideas.



He didn't mean much to her, so he was "safe" for her to experiment. He was not a threat to you (in her mind at the time). Often, to women, an emotional affair is much more devastating. Since he meant nothing, the act would also mean nothing. Obviously that's twisted logic, but she was young and drunk...

All of what you said makes absolute sense and I feel those are probably a lot of the reasons that played into what happened. However, the things that bother me are

- Sex just wasn't that important to her
- As I thought I knew her, her upbringing, morals, and values would never have allowed her to have a ONS, much less while engaged! The thought of having sex or even kissing a guy she wasn't involved emotionally with was "icky" to her!

Me on the other hand, I would have totally expected myself to do something like this... I was always "admiring" girls... but never acted. Would I have if it would have been so convienient? I have thought about this ALOT over the last couple of months, and I don't believe I would have. I certainly cannot say for sure, however.

I'm sad that it feels like she wasn't really the person I fell in love with... but I know this isn't necessarily true.

Why did you email the OM? Don't you realized that the OM is motivated to lie thereby protecting himself from being the victum of an act of revenge by a angry BS?

"He wasn't sure if"

"He thinks they actually slept together for a few hours after"

"He feels like maybe it started before"

"His recollection of birth control"

How could you think that any of these vague answers were true?

"Her description of the whole night bascially makes it sound as innocent as a one night stand could be"

How can you use the word innocent?

"Although I didn't ask him what exactly happened" Why?

"neither of them can remember much clearly.... so I guess these details aren't important" Then why ask?

"I think she is being honest and probably just doesn't remember."

She does actually know more and just doesn't want to upset you and by avoiding the pain that she would have to feel from telling you the truth.

HelpC, your gaslighting yourself into terminal BS FOG!

Only you know how much truth you can handle. It appears that you can not handle much, which is ok.

How strong does the OM and your WW think you are now that you have shown how weak you are by so willingly believed their tall tales?

TheRoad,
Your reply is.... interesting to me.

The OM is 10 years removed from this, he was also 20 years old at the time. He lives several states away and has had no contact from me or my W since college.

What motivation would he have to lie? I believe he is/was genuinely sorry from his responses and probably told me as much as he could remember. I'm not sure why I said I didn't ask him exactly what happened. I did actually, and he only told me details that he could remember (obviously).

I don't know if she knows more or not, but I'm not sure how else to find out. What do you suggest? I can handle ALL of the truth. I feel I could put it behind me if I knew. I have not willingly believed anything to this point... but I do have to take into account that it was 10 years ago! I can remember very little from that long ago.

As for the "innocent" comment, what I said was "as innocent as a one night stand could be". What I meant when I said that was it wasn't pre-meditated, it wasn't crazy wild porn sex or anything, and she kinda went with things. Wrong? Absolutely. But I do have to remember that it is her who told me about it. She could have kept quiet and I would have never, ever, known.

Some days I just feel like I'm not going to get past this. Why on earth would a very happily engaged young woman want to do something like this, especially given that she wasn't even into the guy??? I just can't make it make sense.

Does it have to make sense in order for you to recover?

(I bet your short answer is "yes" or at least "it would be a lot easier!"... but honestly, when you boil it down, does it matter?)

How about this for "why": She's human. Humans are inherent cheaters. This is a basic concept of MB. All of us are capable of cheating- the ones who are able to avoid it either 1) lack the opportunity or 2) have a plan to resist when the opportunity presents.

My bet is she didn't have a plan. She was so young! She had morals- she trusted herself! She never would have dreamed this would happen to her... so she let her guard down and innate behavior took over. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Since then, she has remained faithful. Your relationship is actually safer now than it was before her mistake. She learned! She NOW HAS A PLAN.

It will never make sense to me, so I guess the answer to your question has to be no. But yes, it would certainly be easier!

Yeah, I have seen that about humans being inherent cheaters, and that is SO hard for me to accept.

Another interesting point is that although I do believe she hasn't done it again, she didn't have a plan until now. I asked her "So, do you NOW think it was a good idea to go to your room, drunk (maybe), alone, with a guy you thought was cute and a big flirt?" Her answer was, well when you put it that way it sounds like a bad idea. It hadn't crossed her mind. I asked her over and over to be careful that year since we were apart, and not to put herself in bad situations. She still failed to see that it was a bad situation.

It bothers me that it didn't bother her a LOT more back then. She still thought the guy was a nice guy up until she told me. I asked her how nice of a guy could he be if he was supposedly a good friend and helped his engaged friend do something like that? He was unattatched, it was no risk for him. Again, she's like, yeah, that doesn't sound very nice <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

She just thought she made a stupid decision and didn't dwell on it. She has also said that she felt bad about it at the time, but not horrible. I'm not sure how to take that, either. Maybe I should have her read this posting...

By the way, you were in a similar situation to me, and I know you had a VERY hard time with it. I read your husbands entire post. He was also young and I assume had morals... so why was it so tough for you? Do you really believe what you said above?

Hi again!

Yes, I really believe what I said above.

Why was it so tough for me? Remember when I told you I had a serious boyfriend prior to meeting my husband? He and I didn't make it because he cheated on me... therefore I broke up with him. I did NOT tolerate cheating, and my husband knew this. If I had known my (now) husband had cheated before we married, I would have broken up with him too. Therefore, I felt that my marriage was "fake"- the reason I married him was because I didn't know him. It wasn't the cheating that bothered me so much- it was the lying about it. I felt that my husband trapped me in a situation that he knew I didn't want.

Unlike your wife, my husband did not learn from his mistake. He did not have a plan; he continued to cheat. Our marriage was NOT good. We are trying to fix that! You have a solid foundation with your wife; you had 10 terrific years together. I do think her faithfulness throughout your marriage is evidence that she won't cheat again.

Also unlike your wife, my husband had strong feelings for the other woman (he carried her pictures around with him like a valuable treasure). That was another reason I had trouble with his confession. I felt that he would have been much happier if he had chosen her instead of sticking with me.

I hope that helps you understand why I feel so optimistic for you. My husband and I are working things out; you and your wife can too!

Thanks SR, you have no idea how much I appreciate your responses....

You obviously had/have a tougher situation than me, although I think cheating may have been a deal breaker for me as well. I can't 100% say for sure that I would have married her had I known. I'd like to think so, but I'll never truly know.

From reading your husbands post, he sure seems to be happy that he chose you.... I wish you the best.

I hate mornings, it seems to be especially bad. I feel like I'm stupid for even considering sticking around... but I know I want to be with her.

It's been a long time since I visited the site. We spent a lot of time together over the holidays, with family and friends, etc.... and overall I feel better than before.

But I have to ask, will the images fade? I still picture her in her dorm room with this other guy, while we were engaged. It makes me so sad. When we are together, I still feel resentment. I want nothing more than to forgive her and make a better life together. How do I start when this is on my mind 24/7?? I have been going to counseling every few weeks, and to be honest it doesn't really seem to be helping..... Any advice?

Time helps a lot.

You just found out and you need to PROCESS it.

Counseling is great but Dr. Harley does advise against counseling centered on figuring out the past. It will never be understood or explained to satisfaction and constantly focusing on it merely keeps it obsessively relevant.

It's impossible to just forget it but within a year it will likely be a distant memory. One day at a time. Have patience. Consider this:You had sex before her and experienced another partner and now you found out that she has as well. My wife and I were both promiscuous previous to marriage. I filed OM into that same cabinet with all her former lovers....irrelevant today.

Like JL said it's simple...but not easy.


You mentioned being resentful. THAT I see as the bigger issue TODAY. Statistically YOU are MUCH more likely to have a revenge affair than she is. Perhaps you can motivate her to work along with you to make your marriage a MB marriage of extraordinary care. A marriage that surpasses anything you two have previously experienced.

I also like Dr. Harley's position on "just compensation". It doesn't mean you get to have a revenge affair or make selfish demands. Instead it is something your wife eventually offers to you to compensate for the hurt she has caused you to allieve the pressure on your taker (and thus your resentment). She eventually needs to figure this out.

As engineers (I'm a tax attorney), the MB process is very logical and almost mathematical. The basics make much more sense to engineer types.

Perhaps order His Needs/Her Needs on CD Audio and take a road trip with your wife and listen to it together in the car. My wife and I did that and it helped tremendously.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

HC:

I just wanted to add a few things.

Reraed your post from the beginning. And note your growth. And What your have learned. And What you have been advised.

"It's NO BIG deal"

That is what your W is thinking. It IS a BIG DEAL. For TEN years she has been carrying this around, and she has been able to process and deal with that. You have KNOWN for two months.

Purchase "Survivng an Affair" from this website.

I'm glad you emailed the OM. And got some info. But don't become a PI about that. You can check various things with OM, but please understand, he has every reason to lie about what happened as well. You might let him off the hook alot easier than your W, but he has reasons to hide the truth as well. You can cross reference everything with OM that IS important to you, and then leave it at that. How drunk, how long, where it started, did they sleep, did they this, that, whatever. And remember, this WAS a GUY. It may have been just another notch in the old slide rule to him.

You state that your W isn't that interested in providing the details, and that she says she can't remember.

WHAT you need in the complete transparency of what went on on that time. The movies in your brain are worse then the actual things that might have occurred. And once you get WHAT you need, then the memories will start to lose thier edge, over time. And what you NEED is the truth. Complete and unvarnished. Many people NEVER get this. Whether the A happened 10 days, 10 months or 10 YEARS ago. Understand that. It a tough one. And the only way you will ever get that infomation is to make your W feel "safe" in revealing everything that she knows.

You flying into a rage because she tells you something that you didn't know or didn't suspect, will not make her feel safe. Her revealing troubling info, and you dealing with that, and understanding that its more important to learn what really happened, then to be concerned with your reaction to it. Becasue if she can feel safe about telling yout the truth about THIS, imagine where she can be in the future?

And everything ELSE about your marriage have flowed from that night.

There was a HUGE glass elephant in your marriage. But you could never see it. You could bump into it, stumble around it, try to discerne it, but you could NOT. You never could get all the way around it to adequately get the "big picture"

Your W's admission of her ONS with OM, suddenly put all the pieces together. You know the shape of the glass elephant NOW. You have been bumping into it your entire M. It wasn't until NOW that you could walk freely in the room. You can speak about the elephant. Don't screw it up. Let her fill in all the blanks. You can't change what happened ten years ago. You can divorce her now. But the revealing of the elephant has given you the opportunity to recover your marriage and move to a bettter spot in your M than anything else that has happened so far.

Sounds strange doesn't it?

Revealing this ONS from the time before you were married can help your M grow stronger.

That does sound strange.

But it's TRUE. This can be a path back to honesty and openness in your M. To finding out WHY she reacted like she did while working in the Yard. For you to find out about LoveBusters and Disrespectful Judgements. To find out WHAT Emotional Needs are. And how you BOTH have been missing them in your M.

Remember its a glass elephant. The glass has been revealed. It can be broken to pieces with the things you can learn on this website. And then the pieces swept up and thrown away.

That's WHY your here. That's WHY Mr.W asked you to look forward and not back. Yes, you need understanding about your past. But really, look forward. You IC/MC shouldn't really spend months of counseling trying to interpet what has happened in your past. Maybe all you need to know is waht really happened. And why that has blown up your preconcieved notions about your W. She never was, or will be perfect. Neither will you.

Saturn and MiM posting you is a very good thing. Both have been down this road, and have spouses who continued the same behaviors It appears that YOUR W has NOT continued the same behaviors. But addressing those type of behaviors and her establishing appropriate boundaries, and helping you to restore your trust MAY give you the "Just Compensation" that Mr.W mentioned.

Good luck. Revealing the Glass elephant was a VERY GOOD thing.

LG

True, but maybe it will help me learn how to cope with it. I do however think she should be trying harder to understand it for her own benefit as well, though. She says it just happened for "no reason", she was drunk, etc and learned from her mistake. Maybe that's good enough.


I sincerely hope you are right!


That would be easy to do for me as well, the problem is it happened 3 years into our exclusive dating and I thought things were great. If it had happened before we met, I wouldn't have had an issue with it.


I'm not concerned about me having a revenge affair. I don't operate that way. Believe it or not, I think our marriage is good and I will start to use some of the MB principals, although I don't 100% agree with all of it.


Do you have any suggestions? I think she would appreciate it. Honestly I think if I felt like she was doing everything in her power to make me feel better, this probably would have been much better by now. I love the way it's being handled in this thread: I was unfaithful to my husband [/quote]

Thanks for the reply, I really appreciate it!

Actually, I do think she thinks it's a big deal now, but probably didn't at first. I honestly don't think it has been affecting our marriage at all.... but it's hard to say. I think she chalked it up to doing something stupid while drunk, and left it at that. We were engaged and lived together for a year after this happened.


I'm surprised you think it was a good idea to email him, most seem to think it was a horrible idea, even my therapist. Honestly I don't see why he would lie, he's 10 years removed and several states away. Some of the details that he remembers don't add up to what she says is true, but they are only details I guess, and it was 10 years ago. He thinks he stayed over and slept, she swears they didn't. From what he said, she never "didn't want to go that far", she says when she realized they were really going to have sex, she didn't want to, but didn't really have the guts to stop it at that point. Knowing her, I can actually believe that, but it's still tough to swallow.



She says she can't remember, not that she's not interested. It seems like she is telling me everything she knows, which isn't much. It's frustrating, but what do you do? I sure don't remember much from 10 years ago, although a couple of the things she does remember are kind of curious.


Why do you think this? A couple of people have said this. I'm kinda guessing there was a little more to it than what I'm picturing going off of her details....


I have tried so hard to do this, but she still says she doesn't remember.



I agree. And I have flown off the handle a couple of times, but I have been trying very hard to make her feel safe.

Thank you so much, I understand what you are saying. I hate looking back, but I feel like I can't move forward until I am confident that there are no more lies being covered up.....

Hello Help,

I thought I'd come back to your question this weekend but in the meantime thought of you when I read this other thread.

Here's a link to it.


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;gonew=1#UNREAD

Hope it helps. It references "Joseph's letter" which I presume you've already read also. If not, there should be a link to it on the "for newly betrayed spouses" thread pinned to the top of this the JFO board.

Mr. Wondering

Yeah, I have read Joseph's letter, and also showed it to my wife. After I (stupidly) contacted the other guy, she said something sarcastic like "So do you have all the pieces of the puzzle now?"

I've gotten very little detail from her, but I guess it's hard for me to know how much to expect since it happened 10 years ago. Honestly I have a very difficult time thinking that it happened solely because she was drinking. I still know what I'm doing when I'm drinking.

I feel that a person that truly was against casual making out/sex with someone they weren't interested in, would still be against it, ESPECIALLY knowing that they were engaged at the time.

The problem is I DO believe she was against that stuff, yet did it anyway.... so the "why" is killing me. Was he better looking than me? Was she not that happy that she was engaged? Did she resent me for "ruining" her last year of college? I was so happy that we were engaged, and I feel like she must not have been to let that happen. It really really hurts.

HC,

I have a very similar story to yours only with mine, WW had her first fling more than 30 years ago before we were married but has compounded it with three multiple affairs over the last 5 years after 25 years of a marriage that end-up in a holding pattern. I have to say the one I didn't know about for 30 years hurts just as much as the more recent ones and they all hurt terribly. My D-Day was the end of October. E was the first week in November.

We are in MC with Steve Harley which I believe is the reason we are still together after the most recent A and I would recommend that you talk to him. What he says is that women, and I suppose men, like my wife are
"situationally" weak, that is that they don't consciously set out to have an affair, but they don't have the capabilities to protect their vulnerabilities. What this means is if they meet the right person in the right situation, A can happen very quickly. What my WW says is that she was always "surprised" that these men were interested in her. So what SH has us concentrating on right now is preventing those situations from ever happening again and planning in advance what WW has to do to A-proof our marriage. We are not spending a lot of time going over the past, but what SH says is that after we build our openess and honesty, WW will tell anything she knows just because it is incompatible with that principle. I have to say that Mrs. Hurt has revealed almost everyting I have asked her since I made it clear that this is one of my personal boundaries. She says she is committed to continuing our M now and she understands that part of what has to happen is the "just compensation" which includes making our M better for both of us. I believe the MB way is the only method of recovering an M with any kind of track record. It may seem counterintuitive until you really understand it which I am only beginning to.

Like you, I am also obsessing about what happened. As far as I know this is normal and expected. I am also looking for ways to deal with the thoughts on my thread. I'll be looking for answers on yours as well.

By the way, did you attend school in a state shaped like a left hand? I think it is possible we are alumni of the same school.

HelpCoping;

I had promised to come back after reading your story. I got through everything -- and then was just stumped on how to respond.

To be honest; I'm feeling quite frustrated with you after reading everything. I think it just has to do with our differences in personality -- you are obviously an engineering analytical type. I am probably your opposite -- a sales type....

I'm sitting here thinking -- are you really going to destroy your marriage over an indescretion that happened BEFORE your marriage? Because at this point it is YOU that is jeapardizing your relationship.

You've clearly noted that there are other problems in the relationship -- and yet THIS is the only item you are addressing. Please tell me you are working on the other issues..??

I think you are in danger of driving your wife away with this.

There is NEVER going to be a satisfactory answer to your "why" question. C'mon really. Is there something she could honestly say to you that would make you go "oh, well I understand now..."

Have you read the material? Affairs are usually caused by a lack of EN's combined with opportunity and lowered boundries. So clearly -- her boundries were lowered by alcohol. The opportunity was there.

Now lets talk about EN's. You were in a long distance relationship. Its extremely difficult for emotional needs to be met when you are not together everyday.

Maybe this guy admired her, flattered her, pursued her -- all the things that were missing in her day-to-day life with you gone.

My XH had an affair that started a couple months before our wedding and continued in the first few months of our marriage. To me, that was the happiest part of our lives. Why on earth would he cheat?

And his big "reason why"? Because he was fearful about the fact that I would be the only one he slept with forever. Make sense? No. So I got my "why"....but its still unsatisfying.

Maybe your fiance had the same type of fear -- about never being with anyone else.

So getting your WHY is still going to leave you unsatisfied. Because there isn't an acceptable "why."
Is there?

I think from your wife's perspective you better start paying attention to the other deficits in your marriage.
Otherwise she is going to start feeling like you are using this as a reason to blame all the problems on her.

Please go back and read the advice from JustLearning. It is profound.

Thank you, I really appreciate you coming back! I realize it was a lot to read and I appreciate your input.


I certainly don't want to destroy my relationship over something that happened before my marriage.... however it's clear to me that the 'indescretion' was more meaningful to me than it would be to you. To me, cheating is/was an unacceptable inexcusable act and I now have to deal with the person I love the most having done that. When I go to kiss her and I imagine her kissing him, that's a bit of a huge problem for me! It doesn't always happen..... And yes, I know I have been jeapordizing our relationship.


Absolutely, and I also noted that they were overstated. My W let some things that bothered her build up for a long time instead of talking to me about them. In addition, her job has taken a turn of major improvement which helps a lot. The issues that were bothering her are all easily solveable, and yes we are working on them. They are mostly stress related things like the house is too messy, we are unorganized, we have too many pets to take care of, she doesn't understand our finances, etc.


Probably true. It's just hard to understand why a person that is so against stuff like that would be willing to do so herself.


Yes, I have. And this is one of the fundamental things about MB that I have a very difficult time with. I will admit that I am very easily attracted to other women, however I have had "drunk opportunities" more than once while out of town on business, but I still knew I was engaged and/or married. I may have been tempted, but I knew it certainly wasn't worth it.

So for a person who wasn't even interested in other guys, or didn't have the desire to have meaningless sex, what could make a person like that go against their values? She didn't even WANT to do something like that?

I on the other hand, very much would want to do that, but I don't because I love my wife so much. Make sense? So yes, from my point of view, there must have been something else going on (A huge attraction to the other guy, she didn't love me, etc), all of which she says wasn't true.


True, but I sure was trying. We talked often, emailed several times a day, I sent flowers and/or cards as often as possible, etc.


Not really the case - she said they didn't even hang out more than once in a great while before this happened. This was a one night thing and she says she never even thought about kissing him before it happened that night. She thought he was cute, but never imagined something like that happening.


She did mention that as being a contributing factor.


Of course not, but it might help me understand. Maybe not.


Definately not. She knows that I know we are working on all of that other stuff and I certainly take responsibility for a lot of it... but the point is taken. I have been improving over all and we are making better strides now in other areas.

I guess it's just something that time will have to heal for me. I hate when it pops into my head at the worst times, and I imagine that will go on for some time still, hopefully less frequently as time goes on. I know in the grand scheme of things it is a fairly small issue.... but again from my point of view, infidelity is the one thing I never intended to tolerate in my relationship with her, and it is one (of many) reasons I chose to be with her.... because I actually thought her morals and values would rub off on me, and help make me a better person.

Lexxxy, I agree with you - I can be a very frustrating person. But I am also a very frustrated person right now.

I don't believe that everyone would cheat under the right circumstances.

I guess I should qualify that. If our relationship was completely worthless, then I might consider cheating. It was not that way. The only circumstances for her was drinking and opportunity. I have had those circumstances and managed to decide that it wasn't worth it.

I feel like I can relate to your wife, because I kept a big secret from my spouse for many many years. He always thought I was a virgin when we met -- which just wasn't true. I had been with a high school boyfriend.

And when we first talked about our histories, it seemed important to him -- so I lied. And I never corrected it, because I didn't want to ruin his image of me.

He had me on this pedestal (just as you seem to with your wife). Which was nice -- but not realistic. What would be nicer was if I had felt safe enough to be loved, flaws and all.

So maybe what your wife told you way back then (about kissing being icky, sex not important) was what you wanted to hear. Maybe it was to reassure you while you were away.

Nobody belongs on a pedestal HP. Not your wife, not me. Not anyone.

Wow, 30 years. How did the one that was before you were married come out? Only after you discovered the more recent ones?



Okay, she can be surprised, as my wife was. She said she was flattered that he was interested in her. In my W's case, of course he was interested... they were alone, she was tipsy, and he was trying to "get some", not to take anything away from my wife, she is a beautiful girl... but I asked her, weren't you flattered that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with you? Shouldn't that have trumped some random guy wanting to mess around? Of course it should. I guess I'm sorry that I just don't / can't understand cheating. If you already have something great, what more do you need???


And this is one of the fundamental problems I have with the advice on the site. Again, don't get me wrong, I see value in 99% of the stuff on here. But we're adults! I should have to tell my wife "Don't go out to the bar without me, some guy might flatter you?" It's like watching a kid or something. She has me, if she's not happy with me, then she should tell me so I can improve. One night of sexual fun is not more important than the most important person in my life, end of story. It's not like I've never been tempted. If she doesn't feel the same way about me, then maybe we shouldn't be together.



And that is one thing I thought my W and I had more than any other couple I have ever met. I never questioned ANYTHING that she told me. We were very open and honest about things. Now I am always wondering if I know the truth.


I continue to look for ways to deal (which is why my handle is HelpCoping <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ). After a few months of this though, I am starting to realize the only thing that will help me is time.


Why yes, yes I did - although I have to ask, what gave me away (not that I mind, it's a big state <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) I went back and read my whole thread both from your comment and to reply to Lexxxy's.....

Funny you should say that.... I did the same thing (see, I am not even close to perfect). Immediately after the first time my W and I had sex, she asked me if I had ever done it before. I said yes. She said something like "Yeesh, has EVERYONE done it???".... at which point I could tell she was really bummed, so I said it was only one time with my long term high school girlfriend, it was really akward, and it really sucked. None of that was true, my HS girlfriend and I did it several times over the years we were dating.... but I felt like I had to make myself look better. I did wind up telling my wife at some point in my marriage, several years ago I believe. She wasn't thrilled, but said she always kinda figured that was the case - and since it was long before I knew her, she didn't care.


I don't have her on a pedestal (ok, maybe just a bit), but I know we have flaws, and I do still absolutely love her.


No, actually not true. I just asked her if this was the case and she said no. I even told her back then that she was crazy... it's always "fun" in the right situation and to PLEASE be careful while I was gone. She didn't think she'd ever be in the situation, so she didn't worry about it.

The hard part for me is that sex just wasn't that important to her. She will confirm this if I ever point her to the thread, as I just talked to her about what I was replying to. She also was pretty shy about stuff like that, so I'm really really surprised she was okay with "getting naked" in front of a guy she wasn't even interested in. These are things that haunt me. Was there something wrong with ME or US? Why couldn't she just be thrilled that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her??!! That's the question.



I agree!

Here is an aspect to "WW" thinking that you just aren't getting.

IT WASN'T ABOUT YOU.

There wasn't a comparision between you and OM.
There wasn't thoughts about your deficits.
There weren't thoughts about flaws in your relationship.

This encounter was about HER needs. Her EN's.
It met a need of hers. And likely being at such a young age and rather uneducated on relationship stuff -- it was impossible for her to identify and classify what that need was.

Women can compartmentalize relationships. By that I mean, that any encounter she had with OM had absolutely NOTHING to do with her feelings for you.

When I was involved in my affair, I looked at it as something I was doing for ME...and I deserved this little bit of excitement because I always gave to everyone else.
I really felt it had NOTHING to do with my husband. There is an ability to separate and detach.

You also need to realize that women most often want sex for EMOTIONAL reasons - not physical reasons. She could get over the shyness -- the getting naked part -- because it filled a need for her. I suspect it was the same thing as what I heard from my XH...not wanting you to be her only sexual experience....

I do understand that actually, but it SHOULD have been about me, and then she would have made a different decision. The minute we started dating "exclusively", and especially when we became engaged, you need to consider your significant other in all decisions.


She also had an emotional need to be a good, faithful person. What happened to that one?


So can men of course, especially from the physical aspect.


I hear you - but it wasn't emotional. She was drinking, he kissed her, she liked it, they continued. Sounds more physical to me. As for not wanting me to be her only sexual partner, then I go back to the "comparing" aspect of it. If you are in a good, loving, caring relationship as I felt we were (and she says we were), why would you feel a "need" to have sex with someone else? It could only be to see if the other person is better at it than their significant other. Why else would you wonder?

My biggest hurdle is when it started. If she truly loved and cared for me as she said she did (and yes, I do believe that), then why wasn't she a little more upset and guilty when her "friend" tried to kiss her? I had a couple of engaged female friends while I was in college, and I'm pretty sure if I had tried to kiss any of them, I would have gotten slapped! Sure would have made me feel good if my fiance could have reacted that way instead of being flattered.

She had a purely physical encounter (meaning she had no romantic, caring, or loving feelings for OM) but she did it for EMOTIONAL reasons (her own needs and reasons, like wanting to experience more than one physical relationship...)

I can easily understand how she could decide to go through with it -- and never consider you in the process. It was just something she did to fill her own desire -- and likely did not even think about you in the process. It was not to compare.

She was a very young woman. She had little or no sexual experience. OF COURSE, she would wonder what it might be like with someone else. You already had more experiences than her -- or you might have felt the same. Maybe this experience reinforced her choice of you.

"but it SHOULD have been about me"

yes, unfortunatly true. But now what are you going to do about it? You cannot change the past. It happened. No matter how much you obcess over it, the facts will never change, and there will never be a satisfactory reason that it happened.

So now what are you going to do? Punish her forever? Torture yourself over it?

You make some really good points Lexxxy, thank you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Too funny... every time I start to feel crummy and/or resentful about this, I come back here and read your last comment Lexxxy. It's nice that it's the opening comment on page 6, because I can read it and not be tempted to go read the rest of the thread over again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It's been a while since I've posted and in general things have been going pretty well.... until the last few days. I'm having a horrible recurrence and questioning everything again.

As ManInMotion wrote earlier, my gut is still telling me that she is re-writing history to lessen the impact of her choices.

She insists that she was not flirting with him in the first room before they went to her room and they only went to her room to watch TV. His story suggests that they had a good idea what might happen when they got alone and the innuendo started before they got there..

She says that she remembers not wanting to go through with the sex when it came right down to it. Again, his story (and my intuition) would suggest otherwise.

She insists that she was drunk and she would not have made the same decisions had she not been drinking.. I've been pretty drunk before, and still managed to remember that I was married to a beautiful girl. I would like to think she would have made a different choice, but my mind wonders.

And the last question... how does a smart, beautiful, engaged girl (who was not a "party girl" or anything like that) make a choice to have a one night stand including casual sex with "a friend"? Why did she think it was "worth it" at the time? I know, it's unanswerable and I'm beating myself up.

She says he left immediately after and the whole encounter was very short. He says he knows that he slept for some amount of time before leaving and that he was over there for most of the night.

I know in some of my previous posts I said that I wouldn't want to be with her if some of these things were true or things didn't add up. I don't feel that way any more. I know I want to be with her.

However - I also want and deserve the truth, as painful as it may be. I have been deceived now for almost 11 years. I love my wife, and don't get me wrong, I do believe it was a one time thing and she learned from her mistake, but as far as I'm concerned, any "sugarcoating the truth" has to end.

I would love to believe everything that she is telling me is true, but how do I do that when my instincts disagree? How do I ever truly believe what I am hearing?

Any suggestions and / or comments are welcome. I really do think it is crazy to risk a good 10 year marriage / 14 year relationship over something like this, but I also have to feel safe in moving forward that the truth is out there and there are no secrets between us. Either from the past, or in the future.

I know this is tearing you up. My guess is that I probably would believe the OM and your wife is engaged in damage control. Another poster recently said he paid 200 or 300 dollars for a polygraph test. As soon as he told the wife he had scheduled one she immediately confessed and told him the truth about another encounter. He continued with the test and found her answers now being consistent. Why don't you schedule one?

However the OM was a bit vague as well, being that it was 10+ years ago. I want to believe my wife, she seems very sincere. Honestly I can't imagine scheduling a polygraph test. If she is telling the truth as she remembers it, I think she would resent me for even thinking about something like that. I think at this point after 5 very tough months, she knows I want to be with her, so I hope she would be comfortable in telling me everything.

And I think they aren't actually very accurate for something that happened so long ago as the details in your own mind are typically very fuzzy.

She knowns that I have been having a couple of pretty rough days. She has actually found this thread a couple of weeks ago and read through it, and she has talked about getting on here and replying.

Sigh. I just can't seem to get it through her head that honesty is the thing that is most important to me at this point.

Last night I was basically questioning if she had been faithful to me since we had been married and I think that was really upsetting to her. I told her I don't feel like she's being honest about the indiscretion before we were married, which is making me wonder if she has really been faithful to me since then. It made me think back to last fall when she said she wasn’t sure if she wanted to be with me. She went almost two weeks before she would say “Yes, I know I want to be with you”. Classic sign of an affair, right?

She was out of town overnight on business, so I decided to look at her cell phone records for the last few months. Found a couple of suspicious things- Around the time of her “not being sure”, there was a 5 minute phone call to a co-worker of hers that she had been social with in the past. The call was after working hours. When I asked her about it, she said that she had a meeting with him and others the next day and probably called him to verify some stuff (keep in mind this was last September so her memory was sketchy, but she had her planner from last year in front of her to verify the meeting). I asked why she didn’t use her work cell phone, and she said it must have been dead. This is all quite possibly true, and I didn’t find repeated calls to him, so it’s hard to make any negative conclusion. I certainly don’t have access to her work phone records, so there’s not much I can do there.

I've been bugging her relentlessly because I didn't believe it was just about being drunk, there must be more. She finally said okay, I was attracted to him, he had a nice body. I've asked her several times directly if she was physically attracted to him, she always said no. So it took 5 months for this to come out. The thing that ticks me off about it is that she always made it known that she wasn't into jock type guys, show offs, etc, and that type of display actually turned her off... but the first time she "noticed" him was when he was showing off doing pull ups or something in their friends dorm room... (at a different time). I don't get it, but at least there is more reason now. Of course now I'll be more self conscious about my looks, but I guess that's the consequences.

Unfortunately with her leaking out info like that, it makes it impossible for me to sort out what really happened because I don't know what the f%$^ to believe. It's so frustrating. I don't want her going through life knowing that she lied to me to "protect me".

As of right now, the things that are running through my mind:

- Was she more physically attracted to him than me and wondered what she was missing out on? I think so. Did she think she could get a hotter guy and felt like she was settling for me? Maybe that's why she suggested me not moving to Iowa with her right away right after school. I never took her to be a shallow person and this would really hurt. She was always into me (so I thought) for my personality and values, and I may not be Matt Daemon but I’m not too bad looking of a guy.

- Was she really actually "drunk", or maybe she just had a couple of drinks and that allowed her to have an excuse. I'm wondering if they were even drinking, or if it would have happened even if they hadn't been. She says no. Was it more about him being hot than her being drunk?

- Was there more going on before this happened from a flirting etc standpoint. Even worse, more than one encounter?

- I feel like it did start in the other room, in fact I have strong feelings of this. She denies it very much and said there were no ulterior motives in going down to her room alone with him other than to watch TV.

- She says although she did probably want to have sex at some point in the night, at the time of actually starting the act she did not want to but didn't want to say no. My feeling is that she never wanted to stop it, but probably felt guilty afterwards.

- Would it have mattered if she was my first sexual partner? I think she would have been in the same situation and that would have been a big problem for me (if we had been each others "only" and she had ruined that with this)

- AND last but not least, was there an emotional or physical affair last summer/fall???????????? This is a new worry for me now.

I know what some of you are going to say - Do these details change if you want to be with her or not. The answer is no. At one time in my postings, I said yes, but I have realized that I love her and don't want to be with anyone else. HOWEVER, it's all about the honesty to me. Will she continue to go through life and "protect" me from things I "don't need to know"???

I have asked her to check out this website and reply to my thread, hoping that people may stress her to tell me the truth. She is afraid that she will get berated. I told her that won't happen. If she wanted, she could start a new thread on General Questions II and I bet she would get a lot of help and support.

I am so sorry for you. This is the problem with the trickle down of truth theory. It is a type of mind torture. She has destroyed her credibility in your eyes. She has made a huge mistake. You now know if you keep asking question after question she will finally break and give you another truthful answer. Clearly she does not want the questioning to continue but her actions encourages your questioning. If she had been honest from the start it would have been done with by now.

The result in all of this is that you now know she has the ability to lie to you about certain things. You therefore now believe if she can lie to you about this then she can lie to you about other things. She told you she did not want to be with you a while back and now it feeds your suspicions of other improper behavior. I understand where you are coming from. I wish I had some advise but I have none. You know her desire to "protect you" allows her to not tell you the truth about things so the result is that she now has no credibility in your eyes when she tells anything.

I'm sorry, but I tend to feel that just about anything people do before they are 25 should just be excised from the records. The mind of a 22 year old is very much like the mind of a 17 year old, and we know they are full of impulse decisions and lack of foresight.

I also feel that no one should get married before age 25 because the things that you think you want at 22 can be widely different from what you consider important at 27. You still have mommy/daddy ties, you have no experience against which to compare your beliefs, you're still full of teenage romantic notions that don't stand up against the real world...

I just think that (1) you are blowing this way out of proportion, considering you've had over 10 years of loving devotion from this woman who obviously hasn't spent that time pining away for other men; (2) it is not only human nature to wonder what it would be like with other people, I actually recommend that people don't go straight into marriage with their first or second or even third main romance because human nature dictates that they WILL wonder what they gave up, at some point; and (3) 'bugging her relentlessly' is a really good way to get rid of your wife. Is that what you want? Is she tainted now?

If that's what you think, you might want to do some serious soul-searching over what you think people are. Your wife was not Sister Teresa, she was a human being who had never had a chance to experience dating, flirting, even sex because she spent all her time with you. I'm not trying to be rude to you, just to get you to realize that your expectations are unrealistic. Noble, maybe, but unrealistic. And she will not likely spend the next 40 years with you if you have to hold that over her head.

Catperson:

I do agree with 99% of what you are saying, however -

I won't / don't think she is "tainted". What I have a problem with is the covering it up and will it continue over the rest of our lives on other issues. Maybe none of what happened matters, and I'm starting to realize that. But I do believe I deserve the truth.

Well, I did contact a local polygraph tester. We exchanged a few emails and it sounds like the process is pretty simple and the cost is around $300. He thinks I can clear up most of my questions, probably. I have brought it up a couple of times to my wife, and although she recluctantly agreed, she certainly was not happy about it. When I asked her why she was upset about it, she said she thinks she would feel horrible and maybe even get sick. I think she would probably hate me if I asked her to go through with it. She thinks that I won't "accept" the answers, even if they come out truthful.

I tried to put myself in her shoes, and that only confused me more. If it was me, I would probably jump at the chance to prove that I was telling the truth and make my spouse who was going crazy feel better. But I guess everyone is different. I can see why someone might be insulted to be asked to take one.

I feel pretty bad for even bringing it up. I don't want her to take the test if she is forever going to hate me for it.

Also I will add that a lot of questions can't be asked, such as intent, if she "wanted" to do it at the end or not, etc..... they have to be very specific objective questions.

I think her reasoning is probably more along the lines of given how obsessed you've been over this, to what extent are you going to change everything in your relationship once this line has been crossed? That's what I'd be expecting from you. You keep telling us it's not a deal-breaker, yet you don't let it go. Your words aren't fitting your actions. And while I don't blame you for your feelings, you have every right to them, I think you're NOT seeing it from her side.

You guys remind me of a 10 year old who doesn't tell her mom she broke Grandpa's ashes vase when she was throwing a ball in the living room, out of fear of repercussions. Once she finally tells, it becomes all about her morality instead of being about her stupid act. Completely changes the dynamics of the relationship between mother and daughter, and convinces the daughter to shut down and erect a barrier ('No way am I every telling her the truth again!')

I'm not trying to say what she did wasn't hurtful to you, just that I wish you could step back and see this for the lone, stupid act that it was and not ruin her relationship with you over it. I'll repeat, this is something a young, impetuous adult did, practically a different creature from the woman you're married to now. Is this going to be the defining act of your 50-60 years together? A life filled with births, deaths, hardships, triumphs, outside events that could move your family in ways unseen? I hope not.

I understand what you are saying. I just know if I were in her shoes, I would be doing things a lot different to try to win back my respect and trust. If she would have jumped at the chance to "take the test", I would have never actually taken her up on it, the fact that she was willing to prove her honesty would have been enough.

I guess it doesn't matter anymore. Someone very early on told me that if my therapist said something like "just get over it", to move on and find another therapist. I feel like that's what I'm being told regardless of my feelings. All I've ever wanted is for her to be happy, so I guess I should just drop it and make that my goal.