TIM, so sorry I can't do much more than sympathize with you on dealing with your resentment and feeling foolish. I'm there now, too. I found a $200 charge to Victoria's Secret in my WHs account made right before Christmas. I've expressed a big interest in receiving these kinds of gifts especially since losing some weight. Needless to say, there was no lingerie for me under our tree this year. I so get how you feel.

I find that writing down my triggers and expressing my anger and hurt about them in a journal has helped. I don't have to share it but I do get to express it. If I ever do feel the need to share those feelings, I'll have them documented already so I don't have to feel it all over again to be able to share the effect.

I like the journal, too. At some point, it may help for her to read it.

If she's been withdrawing from you over the years, and this is all out in the open now, I would think that her accepting your 'gift' would make her extremely vulnerable. I think in her shoes, I would decline as well. Not about you, though. About her and her feelings and confusion and not wanting 'good' from you due to lack of trust, DJing you, waiting for the catch...see the difference?

cat - I'm intrigued by your response though not sure that I "see the difference". Are you saying that she may not want to accept this from me out of some feeling of guilt on her part? Or that she feels that she would be "leading me on"?

My W and I have discussed many things since d-day but the situation this morning played out in exactly the same way it would have pre-d-day. So I am not so sure that her behavior this morning is a function of this being out in the open.

And, I should point out, there has been a fair amount of SF since d-day.

Incidentally, while I was out last night my W spoke with her toxic BF. Not sure if this morning's episode is in any way related to their conversation last night and I don't want to let my imagination get the better of me but I suppose it's possible that there was some discussion of OM by the two of them and that could've triggered fresh feelings of withdrawal.

But again, is this not where the HO concept needs to come into play?

I'm just going to play devils advocate TiM.

You really can't say that you were offering your sexual services solely for her pleasure expecting nothing in return and then be upset when she declines, can you? What would be the reason for being upset if that were the case? See what I mean?

Also, I don't think you should assume a trend based on one incident of refusal. I know it felt like the old patterns to you, and it may be them trying to creep in. Part of eradicating those old patterns is recognizing and changing our response to them. You recognized the old pattern. Did you change your response? Its not too late to do so, even now. I'd suggest talking to your W about it. Something like "hey honey, about this morning: when you said no to my advances, it made me feel like x x x x. I realized I did this because I assumed you intended x x x x, which according to the plan we are following is a disrespectful judgement because I don't know what you really intended and instead of asking you and talking about it, I reverted to MY old pattern and got sulky and withdrawn. I'd like to change that pattern."

Perhaps, as she sees that you mean it when you say you want to make the M happy for BOTH of you, and sees the positive effects the MB program has on you (and hence on her as you change your behaviors that she doesn't like) then she will become more intrigued.

And I hear you about not wanting to invest to much in the future right now. I think that is a perfectly reasonable attitude to have this early in recovery. But don't let your uneasiness about the future taint the NOW. If she wants to talk about the future with you, that's great, isn't it? You know that in order for there to be a bright future, things have to change, and you're working on your 1/2 of that and trying to get your W to work on her 1/2, and if you look at where you are now compared to where you were a month ago, you will see that steps are being made. Keep promoting those steps, be more in the NOW and let the future take care of itself.

Tyk - Thanks. I think I partially agree with your first point. I had much opportunity to reflect on this last night (W and I had a horrible evening with each of us feeling like all recent progress went up in smoke) and I realized that what I wanted in return was the feeling of intimacy that SF provides. For the most part, and to a much, much, much greater degree than my W is willing to believe, SF for me is not about the physical enjoyment.

What happened yesterday I believe was a reflection of my insecurity about her feelings for me. This also ties in to me feeling spooked by her talk of moving to another state. How can I be "sure" that she means what she says about her love for me and committment to our M?

So when she rejected my advances I overreacted and overinterpreted, choosing to read it as a sign of her not really loving me as much as she has been saying she does. This has typically been my reaction to her past rejections but I think now in the aftermath of her A it was intensified.

In addition to the obvious problem with my reaction the situation was exacerbated by my W's pattern of dealing with conflict. In short, she shuts down. If she were to have offered some words of reassurance I think I would have handled the situation much better.

I am concerned about our ability to change our individual patterns of behavior with respect to conflict resolution. I feel that I am highly motivated to do whatever it takes to change mine, not only to improve my M but also to improve me, but I am not sure that she shares my enthusiasm. She sees yesterday's conflict as 100% my fault and my response to her saying no to SF as "unacceptable". Keep in mind that my response was basically to become quiet for the remainder of our time together yesterday. I did not shout, throw things, kick the dog, etc. So "unacceptable" kind of left me feeling a bit pessimistic about her interest in really getting to the root of the problem and making positive changes.

I expressed concern to her last night about our ability to get through this without some type of assistance. I said that if we agreed that some other part of our lives together needed attention (e.g. our basement walls were leaking) we would not hesitate to call on an expert for help or at least research how to fix the problem. She agreed with me and agreed that she doesn't want to go back to how things were pre-A but is still very resistant to reading books or attending counseling.

Hopefully today will be better.

Have you asked her what she does want to do? Just curious if you have and what her response was.

I did ask her. It was in the context of me reiterating that I am not wedded to any particular approach and am very open to any alternative she is more comfortable with. She answered by saying that she "thought we had been doing it" which she went on to say meant have more frequent and more open conversations. To an extent I get her point but the reality is that until yesterday we have not had to handle a difficult conflict since we argued over my decision to tell our kids about her A. Her behavior then was the same as yesterday: shut down and/or telling me that I was solely responsible for the problem.

You two would really benefit from the ENs Survey and the Love Busters Questionairre. I know you've asked her about the ENs survey, but I think you should bring it up again. It doesn't really matter if she knows what her needs are or not. Harley has a list of 10 of the most common and important needs he encounters, until she develops a list of her own (ya, right) then she can work with the ones provided. Rating needs is difficult for everyone I suspect, just ask her to do her best.

I think you two would really benefit from counseling, for many reasons, but mainly because you are having a hard time getting her to work with you on this. A set appointment with a counselor would at least provide a structure and a time for recovery.

And yes, it is reasonable to insist on having a plan and expecting some effort. Its likely she's still foggy, withdrawal, all that. Its also likely that she's kinda a stubborn ****** (pardon the asterisk french! :P ). Telling the difference between the two is going to be difficult but at some point (really, whenever you want) you get to say "this is a deal breaker for me, I will not settle for less any longer". It is your life, you're in the drivers seat even though it doesn't feel like it.

I insisted on some visible action from my WW very early in our recovery. She was reluctant at first, but quickly got over it. I can't remember if I had to draw a line in the sand regarding the issue or not, but I know it came up several times and there were a couple rather heated exchanges regarding her lack of initiative. I remember saying something along the lines of: "This isn't something I'm going to just get over and allow to slide. If that is what you are intending you are simply prolonging both of our unhappiness. This is necessary, and is going to happen if we are to stay married. I do not care what plan we follow, I am willing to investigate all options, but right now, the MB plan makes sense to me, I believe it will work for us if we both put effort into it, and its really the only idea I have. If you have other ideas, I want to hear them, if you want to try something different, I am willing to discuss that. What I am NOT willing to do is nothing. If you want to do nothing, then you want a divorce and we can save alot of time by just recognizing that here."

I was very open to the thought of divorce after D-Day TiM. It was a definite option on the table for me, and I did not hide that fact or shy away from it. I think you might benefit from taking a similar approach. Recognize that you have certain requirements for remaining married to her, and allow her to make the decision. Tell her that you will view her doing nothing as a decision to not be married.

Word of caution: you have to mean it. First time you draw a line in the sand and let her cross it without acting, you're screwed. So choose your battles wisely. Requiring recovery effort from an adulteress? Yup, worth fighting about, worth divorcing about too imo. Fight about sex? Nope, not immediately anyhow.

I was just trying to say that nearly everyone deals with their own devils. And we all do a pretty good job of hiding our insecurities, self-doubt, self-hatred, self-blame, indecision, etc. Because I don't have an open relationship with my H, as you didn't, I am very aware all the time of not letting myself be vulnerable around him. IMO, 'letting' my H give me that gift would be tied up with a hundred different emotions, many of them bad. She probably wonders: if you spend time hating her; if she should hate herself; if she deserves to be gifted by you; if you're really expecting your own 'gift' even though you didn't say so and if so, will it be a disaster given what's come out in the open; if you're comparing yourself to OM (i.e., what did he do versus what do you do); if you'll want to discuss that; if you're going to hold it against her or use it to gain the upper hand about the A...stuff like that.

Especially considering all you've been through lately, I can see how it could just be too much for her.

cat -

really?! jeez, no wonder SF is so often the source of marital conflict. Let me just say that we men would not have nearly as much on our minds!

Seriously, thanks for your perspective. I think that one of the things I am beginning to appreciate is how I have work to do to create an emotionally safe environment for my W so that she can be open/honest with me, etc.

*smiles sweetly* Yes, we know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Yes! That is one of the best things I've ever read on this site! Congratulations for understanding that!

One thing to consider is that women have been conditioned throughout the millenia, to be quiet, giving, subservient, unselfish, and NOT demanding. What happens is that, over time, resentments build, whether the person recognizes it or not.

The other thing that happens is that men tend to get what they want more through force than intuition. Not saying you're a bull in a china shop, just that it's more in human nature for the guy to not consider how things affect people emotionally. Hence, the women often start feeling vulnerable. And shut down. Men also, accordingly, often say things that wound the female, while not realizing it, because they're more likely to get what they want through trash talking or speaking loudly or any of a number of subtle manipulations; it's just how guys interact, but it's alien to girls.

I kind of equate it with cats and dogs. Dogs will go around, happy as a lark, tail wagging, wanting to please. If something happens to them they are surprised, their tail goes down, they kiss up to their master or hide for a little while, but an hour later, all is forgotten, and their tail is back up. Cats, by virtue of them being smaller, more vulnerable, and only able to defend themselves through wit or a well-placed claw, are constantly on the lookout for danger; even when sleeping, they're aware of danger and ready to spring for cover in a moment's notice; accordingly, if someone or something harms them, they will forever keep an eye out for that person, remembering the hurt and making sure they're never vulnerable around that person again. It may take years for them to trust that person again.

There's your guy and girls, in a nutshell. So, yeah, make it safe for her.

Tyk - Thanks. Re the viability of Plan D, I have taken precisely the approach you described i.e. regularly, but not too frequently, reminding my W that D is an option and that now would be the time to do it if she is less than fully committed to our M. And that, "full committment" is defined by me (I feel that her A allows me to define terms) to include active participation in our recovery effort. I think she believes that I am serious but as you say one has to be careful with lines drawn in sand.

Yesterday was extremely positive - about 180 degrees away from the prior day. I took advantage of a sleepless night Wed to collect my thoughts, even wrote some notes, and then had a nice calm discussion with W yesterday morning.

The gist of what I said is that I had overreacted to and overinterpreted her rejection of me the previous day and how post-A I am a bit insecure about things. And how I could get what I need re reassurance through other (i.e. non-sexual) expressions of her love for me. But that my tendency (instinct?) is to seek that reassurance via SF. She really seemed to get what I was saying, which I'm sure I said my articulately than I am doing now, and all was good.

In fact a few hours later she asked me if I had time for SF. Somehow I managed to tear myself away from my work...

All that being said, I think she and I agree that Wed was a clear demonstration of how difficult it is to change patterns of behavior that have been in place for 20+ years. So I think with that realization she may be more interested in completing certain exercises (e.g. EN and LB surveys) as a way to facilitate change.

cat - again, very interesting. I liked the cat/dog analogy (though does it mean something that I'm not a big fan of cats?) and I think there is a lot of validity to it.

OTOH re your observations about the conditioning of women, the other part of this that is problematic is the conditioning of men that plays equally on relationship dynamics. It is not easy to be a "sensitive man" who tries to create the safe environment for the woman. We are likely to be hassled by our male friends and even to question ourselves about whether our W's would prefer that we be less sensitive (i.e. "more manly"). It is, frankly, a pain in the [censored] to have to think so much about getting things "just right". But if a happier M is the payoff then I suppose it is all worth it.

I wonder if there is a female equivalent of this "emotional intelligence" balancing act.

That's good to hear TiM. Recovery is a rollercoaster. Not as bad as life with a cheating spouse, but its no party by any means.

It sounds like your W is coming around some. If you're like me, then your head is going to be causing most of the problems! It took me months to really begin to come to terms with all that's happened, and my W was really about the ideal as far as these types of things go. I think there is a good chance that your W could come around and really buy into recovery as well. You just have to get her to see that it really is in her best interests as well.

Really try to leave talk about the A alone as much as possible for a while. Concentrate instead on building a better marriage. Are you two spending any fun time together? Its pretty important that you do so, it lets you both realize that there is something there worth working towards. Perhaps now would be a good time for a getaway weekend, or a vacation?

Yes, I agree that it's definitely a good idea to try to give the A stuff a break. Actually started a few weeks ago trying to set aside some time that my W and I could spend some time having fun. That seems to be going well and we just need to stick to it. This has been an area that we have neglected over the years as we allowed our kids' lives to take over ours.

There is one remaining A item that I am grappling with and want to get beyond but not quite sure how/when to do it. There is a town between my home and OM that was their rendevous spot. I want to see the hotel that was used so that I can deal with those feelings in a controlled situation rather than have to get hit by them at some inopportune time (e.g. while driving to a social function with my W and wondering which hotel was the one etc.). I know the name of the hotel in Vegas that was the site of my W's presumed prior A and it helps me to not have to deal with bad feelings every time I hear mention of Las Vegas but rather have the feelings be attached in a more limited way to the specific hotel. Does this make any sense?

TIM: [color:"blue"]"Yes, I agree that it's definitely a good idea to try to give the A stuff a break."[/color]
It was just a couple of weeks ago that you were really worried about a lack of enthusiasm and progress. From your recent posts it sounds like a lot of good things have been going on. That's great.

Did your out-of-town travel already happen, hopefully without incident?

I can totally get the association thing about the hotel. (I now detest the entire state that my WW started her main A in; not exactly rational on my part...) Anyway, if you do go see the venue, I would prep yourself so that you don't LB before/after. I never got to experience recovery, but I wouldn't do anything you can prevent that might be a set-back. I don't think it will make you feel 'better', but its one less thing to be curious about. Your idea about restricting the scope of the 'trigger' is I good one, I think.

- WG

WG - Sorry for being unresponsive. I have been unable to post for a few days.

I am traveling this week. First time since the week after d-day. I was a bit anxious as I was preparing to leave. Used the three hour flight to write a letter to my W that was basically a reaffirmation of my committment to do my part of the heavy lifting to make our M better and my expectation that she will do her part. Also apologized for my LBs over the years, expressed excitement about the possibility of a better future, and reiterated that neither of us should settle for a M that is anything less than what each of us requires to be happy.

My W read the note the next day and responded with a nice note. Said that she didn't have time to respond as fully as she would like and would do that at her first opportunity. I'll stay tuned.

She did manage to include in her brief note that she "would NEVER again do anything that would jeopardize our marriage". I believe that she is sincere about that.

I still plan to have her take me to see the hotel. I know that I can do this without LBing. I am really only doing it as a precaution, doing it proactively on my terms.

So, while I still feel that I am on the rollercoaster, the highs outnumber the lows - at least for now.

Shirley Glass wrote about a 'walls' and 'windows' metaphor in her book "Not Just Friends". Essentially BSs share things they shouldn't with affair partners (windows were they don't belong) and they hide things that ought to be revealed to a spouse (walls where a window belongs). She suggests part of recovering is switching the unnatural order back to where it belongs in a marriage. So understanding the 'hotel' makes sense to me in that way of removing a wall and inserting a window; the goal being there is nothing secretive left about the affair and you know everything you need to know.

Glad to hear things have progressed forward for you.

- WG