When you want to, you are entitled to behave however you wish. I think that sometime in the near future a "come to Jesus" meeting is going to be in order for you and your wife. What it boils down to is as MyRev said, you have a right to enforce your boundaries, whatever they are. If you boundary is "woman, as of this second you are either working for this or we're done", then that's your boundary and imo that is perfectly fine. However, that might not bring about the result you really hope for, and it is quite possible that she will reach this conclusion on her own, which would be the preferrable scenario.

Ball is in your court tim, and always will be.

Tired
you have gotten a lot of advice..but only you can put together a plan of action.
BUT
here is my take
slow and steady this is a ROUGH situation so recognize how hard it is. SOOOO.. slow and steady.
begin enjoying your life
begin implementing what would make you happy in your marriage..invite her to work along with you..plan A is showing her what a good thing being married to you is..NOT being a doormat.
also try putting yourself in her shoes..for fun..play her hand in this game
slow and steady.. things WILL take shape
this is your MARRIAGE give it appropriate time and energy. POSITIVE, nurturing work on you and your marriage.
AND please PLEASE see a PROFESSIONAL counselor.. as i mull this situation it hits me that this is more complicated than you think
did you notice any changes in your wife over the three years?
did she continue to have sex with you as well as OM ?
why did her first marriage end ???
you need a pros evaluation of her personality
jerseyboy

Hows things goin TIM? Don't make us come get you! :P

Jersey - Thanks. In response to your questions:


short answer is yes but nothing that i consider dramatic or radical. perhaps slightly more independent, more concerned with appearance (but this period also commenced approx the time she turned 40 so maybe this is "normal"). The quality of my answer to this question may improve upon additional reflection by me.


yes, but almost always initiated by me, usually lacking passion, sometimes even seeming angry.


I don't know much but apparently her first H was unfaithful to her. She was quite young and he was a professional athlete (also very young).


Don't I know it! Not sure how to get that though.

Tyk - Thanks for checking on me. Last few days have been generally pretty good but also a bit frustrating. In short, my W has been very warm and affectionate (good things) but still showing no interest in exploring the meaning of the A. I have told her in increasingly certain terms that I am prepared to end the M if she does not demonstrate a willingness to work on understanding what lead to her decision to have the A, while acknowledging that I am sure I had a role in creating a marital environment that made her vulnerable to this, so that we can make the changes necessary to reduce the likelihood that this will happen again. She seems to acknowledge my point of view on this but to date her choice of reading material remains a mystery novel rather than a relationship book. I feel that I can endure the process of recovery and restoration of intimacy (maybe "establishment" would be a better word) regardless of its length but I am not sure that I can last even a few weeks of the current process-not-yet-started state.

Still have not addressed the issue of the toxic friend but will at the first opportunity. This may happen in the context of my communicating that trips to Vegas and AC, etc cross a boundary. After my W previous trip to Vegas (during which I suspect she had a brief A - she admits only to a kiss) she resumed these "girls weekends" against my protest. In retrospect I completely mishandled those situations - a mistake I do not intend to repeat.

TIM

"tiredinmd", my FWW has not read any MB stuff since skimming through it a few months after D-Day. She also does not participate in any sort of "relationship" forums or any sort of support group assistance. She has however agreed to counseling, assuming that I find one that we can go to (and I suspect that she'll probably find a way to back out of that arrangement if I DO find someone). She's also very reactive when it comes to our relationship, i.e. she expects everything to come naturally, feels that she IS contributing towards our recovery by doing whatever she *feels* is right (but usually can't explain what those feelings are based on), and when things go wrong and she starts to LB, she blames her behaviour on everything else except what she *chooses* to do. She says she takes responsibility for her actions, but yet to date cannot demonstrate that to me.

I keep having to remind myself that recovery is a *slow* process, and trying to rush things along is probably going to make matters worse (one of my FWW's biggest complaints earlier on was my "pushing"). You may want to take this into consideration when discussing any sort of relationship matters with your (F)WW.

I understand completely TIM, but there's something you should know, that I myself have not entirely accepted but that I have been told by many that are much further along in thier recovery than myself: you are never going to get a satisfactory answer. The "why"s and "how could you"s. . . you're just never going to be satisfied. Most of it is I think because there really just is not a good reason, it is completely unjustifiable, and all justifications are merely that, simply excuses for indefensible behavior. The other reason is that its really quite simple, basic, in the sense of base behavior. As happen because the APs could. They met, there was attraction, they thought they wouldn't get caught, didn't stop, thought they would maintain control, didn't, told lies, those snowballed, until you find yourself where you're at.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't try to seek an answer, just prepare for the idea that there really isn't one. There is a very good post in my post d-day thread, where a WS whose name I cannot recall right now gives a pretty good synopsis of things. Anyhow. . .

Your WW might be more inclined to read if you took a different approach. Instead of focusing on the past, because that isn't going to be solved anyhow, focus instead on the future. Something like "WW, our M has obviously had serious problems. I don't know why you chose to do what you did, and I would like you to spend some time thinking and talking about that with me, but even more importantly, we need to focus on the future, we need to learn to build a M that makes both of us happy, and that is going to require both of us to learn new things. I think this book can help get us started, I would like you to read it and tell me what you think."

Something like that. And you might start with His Needs Her Needs even, instead of Surviving an Affair. HNHN does deal with infidelity, but it is more of a general explaination of Marriage Builders concepts and focuses more on how to be happy in a marriage as opposed to recovering from infidelity. That might be less threatening to your WW right now, and if she sees hope in the program, that would be a good thing. Then you can step back a bit and explain that in order to get to that place you both have some work to do to get past the A, which is where SAA and other books can be explored.

Anyhow, just babblin now, glad to hear things are lookin up TIM, brace yourself for a very rough ride my friend. In some ways, early recovery is even worse than the A!

MIM and Tyk - Thanks. I was not as clear as I should have been in my previous posts re the meaning of the A. My only interest in trying to explore the "meaning" or causes of her A is to be informed by the past in the hope that we can avoid repeating this in the future. In fact my conversations with W have been very similar to the approach recommended by Tyk (though I do think that HNHN may be a better place to start). So I don't feel that I have been at all pushy about this. On the other hand I am choosing to not endure "marriage limbo" any longer. Remember, I have been through this once before (i.e. I suspect that my W had a brief A in Vegas in 2004) and the immediate aftermath of that was very similar to my current situation: lots of tears, apology, warm and affectionate behavior, etc. But, at the end of the day, there was no discussion of any substance as to how we could improve our M. And then, one year later she began the more recent A. So I have decided that I am not going to do this again.

As for the past details of this A, I don't intend to dwell on those any more than my brain will allow. To do otherwise would be counterproductive. But I do sometimes think that the length of the A, the fact that the OM was my son's coach and my friend, the unfathomably disrespectful behavior (one of many examples: inviting OM to a dinner with our friends on my birthday and then allowing him to spend the night in our spare room so that he wouldn't have to make the drive home late at night), the fact that on D-day as she was still denying the A she was telling her toxic friend that our M is permanently broken and that she hates her "f-ing miserable life", all of these things leave me feeling that more demonstrated remorse is appropriate. But maybe that's just me. Sorry for the rant but at times I feel that one or two angry outbursts would be good for me.

I had two HUGE angry outbursts myself shortly after D-day, which for me was the same day recovery began. They were really the only 2 times in our 15 years together that I had ever shouted at my W in pure rage and anger. I think it scared the ****** out of her. It scared the ****** out of me too. They gave some momentary relief, and I believe they were in a way useful in that they let my W see exactly how I felt. But they weren't the best way to do that, and if I could go back and behave differently, I would. Fortunately she took those outbursts very well.

I think you have every right, and are correct, in refusing to allow your M to revert back to "normal". Obviously what was normal was a failure, for both of you.

What you are saying is that your WWs refusal to "work on the marriage" is a deal breaker for you. That you would rather get divorced than maintain the status quo. Is that right?

I think that's a completely reasonable boundary. I would simply tell your W that. Tell her that you want the marriage, and that you want both of you to be happy, and that you are not willing to continue without some kind of plan for recovery in place that you are both working on together. Share MB with her, it sounds like you already have, and tell her it is the plan you like and believe will be sucessful, but that you are willing to consider other options if she has some other ideas (she won't).

Tell her that you require a plan, a way forward that you both agree on. If she will not agree to SOMETHING, then it is time to re-evaluate the viability of the marriage and recovery.

Also, the posts I was referring to in my thread were from Lexxy, and they are on page 4 of my post d day thread. Don't know if you'll gain anything from them, but I did.

I take it then that your WW never "came clean" about her activities in Vegas in 2004? And three years later, she's now involved in another A?

"tiredinmd", to be honest, if I was in your situation, I would seriously be considering Plan D, unless your WW suddenly has an epiphany and SERIOUSLY demonstrates some sort of commitment to recovering your M. She appears to be a dishonest, selfish and self-centered serial adulterer, and I can't imagine what life would be like, being attached to someone like that for life.

MIM - I'll never know the extent to which my W has been truthful about Vegas. She says it was limited to a kiss. But there was a ~36-hour period during which she was unreachable, phone calls to OM from airport just before she left to return home, hours of phone calls to OM the following week while I was out of town on business, W using MapQuest to obtain driving directions to OM hometown, W researching flights to a city that she was planning to visit later that year for a "girls weekend", etc. So a bunch of stuff that didn't smell right. At the time I felt that my W only admitted the minimum required by the proof (i.e. all that I had was proof of a "friendship"), though she did cry, express sorrow, said that she was lonely but then showed no interest in working with me to change anything about our M. The real killer for me at the time was that she followed through on her planned "girls weekend" even though she knew that I was quite sensitive about that. So I was left to wonder if OM met her during that trip. Still don't know the answer to that but, as I said, what bothered me most was what I perceived as a complete and total lack of empathy for me.

But to your point about Plan D, I certainly am considering it but feel that I have an obligation to myself, my W, our M and our kids to put forth maximum effort to see if there is any chance of rebuilding. I think, though, that I will need to see demonstrated effort from my W SOON. I may have to travel for business in a couple of weeks and I think that for my mental well-being (not to mention my professional productivity) I need to know by that time that she is engaged in the process.

While I'd agree that you seem to be facing a pattern of behavior in your WW, not a one-off; I'd suggest some patience until you know your M can't survive. You have a lot of years invested with this woman, and if the two of you can fix this, both of you would be better off.

If you are really 'in MD', then you should know that property division is probably going to be close to 50-50, even if you can document adultery. If your WW hasn't been working, you've got risk for alimoney. You have a lot to lose financially.

Would it be possible for WW to accompany you on your upcoming travel? I know you have a D6, but at that age missing a week from school isn't a crisis, IMO. With OM so close by, I'd have a hard time leaving a WS alone.

- WG

TIM,

Just wanted to second WG's suggestion...to go with your decision of meeting her at the finish line.

I understand your concern about D6 around the OM, too. Tough decision.

Can you get a hotel room in the same hotel you all can stay in?

What you do for your marriage isn't about her trainer's advice, isn't about the state of your marriage...it's about your half...showing real support, acknowledgment...and bringing reality, IMO.

Busting up an A to me, is maximum effort...I don't see where your goal changed...

LA

Tyk - Thanks for pointing me toward Lexxxy's posts on your thread. I found them interesting and somewhat helpful. Also while reading your thread I noticed a post (#3331002 from 11/5) in which you asked for thoughts and reaction to the notion that the cause of an A may have as much (or more or everything) to do with the WS than it does with the condition of the M. It doesn't seem that you received very much feedback on that. I have been struggling a bit with that very question, I think because it is my nature to make some effort or attempt - something - to fix problems that confront me, and I have approached my W's A in the same way. Feeling that I contributed to her decision and therefore I am part of the solution, when in fact it is possible that she may be the type of person that would have an A if given the opportunity regardless of the quality of her M. This is a bit troubling in terms of its implications for the future.

WG - I am in no rush to end my M and that is not the outcome I want (though the reasons have nothing to do with the financial impact) and I'm hopeful that my W will do what it takes to put my mind at ease while I am traveling. Taking her with me is not feasible.

LA - Thanks as always for your perspective.

An update on my situation: my W and I took a long walk yesterday during which I presented to her my preferred way of moving forward which is to follow Dr. Harley's Four Steps to Recovery. She was receptive and said that the approach seemed sensible to her, that the first three concepts would be fairly easy to follow but that the fourth (radical honesty) would be the biggest challenge because she has never been comfortable talking to anyone about her feelings, including, she claimed, her best friend (the toxic one). In fact she said that part of what she got out of the A was the ability to "just talk" to the OM without having to get into anything too heavy or deep. Not sure how much of that I believe given that I have a recording of her sobbing as she tells her friend how much she loves OM but... In any case I am grateful that things seem to be going OK (certainly better than what I have read from many other posters) and at this point the only thing she could do to improve things would be to take more of an active (or even lead) role in the recovery process. She said that she'll read HNHN but it's still on the shelf. I'm thinking about saying that I want us to fill out the questionnaires in 1 week to see if that "deadline" will help her get started. But of course don't want that to be seen as controlling. Thoughts?

Also I spoke with OM today and confirmed that he will be telling the team tomorrow evening that he is stepping down as coach (this has been planned but was delayed due to the holiday break).

I think that things sounds pretty good for you tim, your Ws concerns about honesty are somewhat troubling, but I guess at least she's trying to be honest! :P Seriously though, if she's willing to attempt the plan, then go with it, I'd suggest the ENs questionairre and some time to discuss them together, and then begin reviewing the basic concepts together etc. Really, if you can get her to do the material available free on the site, her reading the books isn't really all that important, the books go into more detail, but the meat of the material is available free on the site. If you read my thread you will see that I was initially frustrated by my W's slow start on the recovery effort as well, but she changed pretty quickly and now is on board as an equal partner in the health of our marriage.

So give it some time, feed her little bits and pieces of information and get her used to talking about the material with you, try not to get into long drawn out discussions, sometimes just a "ya, I thought that too" about something. Notice when she tries to implement the plan, and thank her for it. She will probably quickly see that the material is just as useful and beneficial to her as it is you, and if you persue the discussions in a safe way and gain her trust she may quickly get over her reluctance. I suspect that she will be as honest as she feels safe. It may take some time for her to get used to opening up to you. Realize that she felt close to this OM because he did something you weren't doing, whatever that was, you need to work on ways to make her feel that way with you. Now that you are clued in and educated in relationships (more than you ever wanted to be!) you will probably not have much problem with any of this.

I suspect that true remorse will come in time. As you demonstrate consistency in your efforts, she may see what a huge mistake she made.

I do still believe that As can have very little to do with the state of the M. However, I have come to believe that once one has built a truly strong M, As are probably very unlikely. I have realized that while there was no justification for my W's A, it was facilitated by a sense of complacency. So I don't worry too much about a repeat occurence for a couple reasons; first because it does little good to worry about something I can't control, and second because I now know what is required to BUILD a healthy marriage and we are working together to achieve that. Its something we had never done before.

Anyhow, I see alot to be hopeful for in your situation TIM, realize where you were just a month ago vs. where you are now. Your feelings and questions and doubts are normal, they will fade as your W becomes more vested in the M, which will happen as you continue to learn and implement the strategies. I doubt you'll have to drag her along forever!

tim
you are getting good advice..but i need to say a few things
1. get a good clear idea of what YOU want in this marriage
that will give you a GOAL to move toward and an EXAMPLE to voice to her BE SPECIFIC
2. You get into therapy and tell the T about your wifes behavior.. let the T evaluate her personality
3. You need to determine if your wife is BI-Polar ( a biochemically driven condition) and or a Narsacistic personality or a Sociopath...these typea of people cant keep a promise..look up the definitions of these types of people.. marriage to any of them is PURE ******..
these types lie all the time, and have zero concern for others needs feelings etc.
I mention these personality types because of your wifes lack of remorse..and her "sorrow" and then no followup actions
one other thing
I go NUTS when people say you cant find out the "why" of the affiar
to this i say OFFICIALLY.... [censored]..here is the generic why
there was something your wife wanted that she felt she couldnt get within her marriage..it could have been any of many things...but she "knows what that is"..
Mnay " affairees" say " i dont know" because they are embarassed at how shallow their reason was..or how "unfixable it is" eg.. they wanted "strange" or adventure or "taboo" something the mate cant give

also she felt it was OK for her to break her marriage vows to get what she wanted.. she may be unwilling to be faithful to you, but she wants to keep the marriage..this attitude is very common..its called "cake eating"
persitent questionsing will get a revelation of whatever she wanted...
BUT
IN YOUR CASE i wouldnt question her..
you will have to play it as you feel
your situtaion demands going slow in some aresa and PUSHING in other areas..that why i counsel... THERAPIST input
for at least you

good luck
JB

yes JB, I agree, generic "why's" are pretty easy, but they aren't very satisfying to most BSs. The specific "why's", well, I think its few and far between the people that really get a satisfactory answer to the question of "Why". Its not going to keep me from seeking either, but I'm not going to allow the lack of an answer to prevent me from moving forward.

I'm curious as you your perspective on this JB. I know I've read some of your posts before but I don't recall your situation. I'm curious what satisfying answer you recieved to the question of why and how you got to that point?

So not a great night / morning. W asked me last night if I would mind if she met toxic friend for coffee. Nice of her to ask and I instinctively agreed and even thanked her for asking me. But as the evening progressed I became more bothered by the thought that she would be again confiding in this friend who was with my W in Vegas in 2004 (see my earlier post) and was supportive of and enabled the recently discovered 3-year A. My W sensed that I was unhappy and provided a few minutes of reassurance but then shut down. This morning she did not speak to me until spoken to. I reminded her of the difficulty I have with the continuing presence of this friend in her life and the many reasons for feeling that way. She then left for coffee.

I thought that I could be content with my W's passive approach to the recovery effort but I am now having doubts. I think it is relatively easy for the WS to be loving, affectionate and "supportive" when things seems to be going OK but the real challenge (is it fair to call it a test?) is their behavior when the going gets a little rough. And what's with the total lack of empathy? Remind me again why this is "normal" (and not unacceptable) please.

In my case I think I need to enforce my d-day boundary of marriage counseling. My W again said that she will read books but still they sit on the shelf. She is putting forth zero effort toward recovery. I spend countless hours on this and try to remain productive at work (a futile effort on many days) and she sits at home with hours of free time. This is all so difficult to swallow.

TIM,
One of the things I continually read (and one of the most unfair) is how early in recovery, the BS has to do all the heavy lifting. Maybe that doesn't ever change really and the BS is always the one putting in more effort to recovery. It seems that is what you are experiencing now. After a 3 year affair, I would expect your wife to have a considerable withdrawal period. Did she feel "in love" with this guy when you exposed? Has she opened up to you at all about how she felt about the affair? She is probably just going through a long mourning process, and is too wrapped up in her own pity party.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here and you know all this stuff already, but that doesn't make it any less of a bitter pill to swallow. It truly is so unfair that us BS'es are the ones that had this tragedy forced upon us and we are expected to be the patient, tolerant, kind, and loving person while the WS tries to sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened.

Hopefully your wife starts coming to her senses soon though. If you don't mind me asking, how is your son handling all this?