I pretty much agree with Andrew. I am all about agressive boundary enforcement TiM, I just think that in your situation, you have been successful in ending the A, you have gone a long ways towards removing the OM from your daily lives, and your WW is showing some signs of being willing to work on recovery (she was talking with you about the 4 steps to recovery just the other day).

I think you should ride this out for a bit. You've suffered alot, I understand, you want to know NOW that it was all worth it, but the process is not yet complete, what you are experiencing is still within what is considered "normal" for the process of recovering from infidelity. I just worry that if you are overly agressive right now that you could be doing unnecessary damage.

Zen brotha, zen. It seems things are working in your favor, along the path you are wanting them to follow. There's all the time in the world to throw down the gauntlet. I believe in doing that myself, but I think you are just on the cusp of things turning for you if you can just hang on in Plan A for a bit longer. Keep guiding your WW, but do it gently. Give her the EN's survey and ask her to fill it out. Make it about you. Tell her you want to learn how to be a better H.

Andrew - Thanks for the reply and tolerating my whining. I know my situation is no different (in many ways better actually) than the hundreds (?) of other posters but the ability to let off steam via post seems better than through certain other means and sometimes I need to indulge.

My W has had very little to say about anything having to do with the A, or what lead to it, or what she felt before/during/after. She said the sex was "generic" and not great. She liked talking to OM because it was "just talk" which I take to mean nothing too deep re their relationship. The funny thing is that in many ways OM is a lot like me but IMHO not quite as good. What I mean by that is I had always assumed that if my W was unfaithful it would have been with someone who offered something noticeably better than what I could provide (e.g. appearance, conversation, income, etc). In this case he clearly must have offered something that I had not been but it is not at all obvious to me what that may have been. At some point I would like to know the answer to that question because perhaps it could be instructive going forward but it seems unlikely that my W will ever be that forthcoming.

Through a recording prior to d-day I know that she was "in love" with OM. She has tacitly acknowledged this to me subsequent to discovery. I have talked to her about withdrawal and how I know that is/will be difficult for her and that I will be as supportive as possible, etc. But I really don't know if she is having a hard time in that regard (not because I haven't asked).

One interesting thing that I may not have mentioned previously is that OMW spoke with my W by phone on the day OMW learned of the A and apparently used some rather colorful language to tell my W what she thought of her and my W's reaction to that was anger. She told me that she feels no remorse or empathy for OMW. Seems odd to me but maybe that's me.

My son (coached by OM) seems to be doing OK but he does not typically put his emotions on full display. My two older children have told me that they remain pissed at their mom but are hoping that we work things out. Seems like a normal response to me.

Tyk - Thanks. I was posting as you were replying.

My whining notwithstanding I do plan to stay positive and stick with Plan A. I just to need to vent occasionally. That, for me, is one of the very many ways in which this site is incredibly helpful.

I did tell her this morning after she returned from coffee that I need to know that she is pulling some weight in this effort. Not all of the weight or even half. But some. I think she gets it (or at least appeared to this morning) and I took great care to stay focused on my desire to go through this process as a means to achieve a great relationship not as a way for me to "recover" from her A. All very positive. That's me!

Vent away! Its hard for us to discern between venting and actual intents to act.

If you can get her to fill out the EN's survey, it will be a good clue as to what he was providing. Look for all the things she rates as important to her and scores you poorly on.

People rarely "Affair Up". Its hard to find a good person willing to mess around with a married person, especially for any length of time. Anyone willing to do so must necessarily have some glaring flaws. Of course you're the better option than him.

Has the OM resigned his coaching position yet?

My W did the same thing, the OMGF chewed her [censored] and my W was downright mean to her. I found it enlightening as well.

Tyk - Thanks. I think I will print the ENQ and give to her tonight and ask her to let me know when she has completed it.

I spoke with OM yesterday (I have what is maybe a unique dual role: BS and interim team manager) and confirmed that he will be informing the team tonight at practice that he is stepping down to spend more time with his family. That is likely to provoke a handful of parents who have paid $$$$ to have their child coached by OM but I guess OM and the organization will have to find a way to manage that. Should make for a stressful weekend for me though as those parents will surely ask me what is going on. Good times.

TIM,
I share a lot of your feelings about this process. While my wife and I have done well correcting the behavior that led to her affair (really just too much independent behavior, we had always treated each other with respect and love), I still hold a lot of hostility and resentment inside. At our last MC meeting, I explained how her reaction to my bringing up the A (in a search for answers, not to cause pain) was taking a signficant toll on me emotionally. Basically if I so much as mentioned it, she would become closed off, start crying, ask not to talk about it anymore, be sad for the rest of the evening, or any combination of these.

What I "learned" from that, was just to bury the feelings I had, which is why I feel so stagnated in our recovery right now. I realize the fault is completely mine. I cannot blame her for not wanting to talk about it. Its completely understandable. I had not asked her for anything outside her comfort zone, so she had not offered it. Basically, I set the bar low, and never made her work for her place in the marriage.

So in that last MC meeting, I told her that we were going to start having all the discussions we never had so that I could get what I needed for my recovery. I know that she HAS done some of the introspection required, but she has yet to inform me of any of it. So here we are, doing well in the present as husband and wife, but none of the really rotten issues have been addressed. I certainly feel your pain about not getting the answers you need.

This is something that I have wrestled with too. Not that the OM was like me, but that he was very different, and not in a "good way". Our counselor suggested, and my wife agreed, that one of the reasons that she got involved with the OM was because of how she never really felt "good enough" for my family. So she became involved with him because she felt he was more her level. While, I agree that it could be a contributing factor, it certainly isn't the only factor.

However, I cannot examine him and figure out anything that he could give her that I didn't give her or was willing to give her, had she just voiced the desire for it. The only thing I could possibly think of is that their bond was primarly formed on the basis of their work. She is in the Military and he is in the same field as her. Its a high speed field that breeds a certain type of mentality in the guys there, and its not something I can ever really give her. Its not a failure on my part to meet that need per se, but an impossibility. I cannot relate to her work in the way that these other guys can. And if that was a large contributor to her A, that does not sit well with me, when I think of the years she has left in the Military.

Andrew - Interesting that in your case OM was so different. In mine, he was very similar (IMO) and that is what was surprising to me. For example, if "life of the party" is one end of the scale and "reserved loner" is at the other end I'd put myself just slightly toward the "life" end. OM is just slightly on the "reserved" side of center. Based on my experience with W over the years, I would have expected her to be attracted to the loud, attention-seeker. Maybe she is but had to settle for less in the A. Who knows? Hopefully she will complete the EN survey to help me understand. Has your W completed the survey and, if so, did you find it enlightening/helpful?

My wife has read HNHN and seemed to agree with a lot of what it said. We have not filled out the survey, but did have a few conversations about it. I listed my top 3 ENs for her, but she didn't really know what hers were. The questionnaire is on the to do list. I did try and explain that her not meeting some of my needs might be because I wasn't meeting all of her needs, and went on to tell her what I "thought" her top 3 needs might be. She could not confirm nor deny. Sometimes I just don't think she really wants to get to the root of things.

TYK
sorry about the bulshit comment.it was inappropriate and i wasnt referring to you..it was a reaction to what i feel is a dysfunctional attitude..that we will never know "the why".. as for my situation my beloved cheater never told me why..in fact she could never really look me in the eyes again.. she threw me out for om a month after d day.. we werent married ...and she went on to have a lousy and short relationship with him. when i tried a reconciliation she trashed me..but wouldnt say why..she was a selfish arrogant woman who thought she was to good for me. she couldnt face her own flaws and didnt care enough about me to even try

the specifics of why reveal a lot about ws.. it could be anything but i feel its important that the ws take the time and feel the pain to tell the bs "why".
This is heavy stuff but it is your marrige
very important
once again ws feel its ok to solve their problems by breaking the marriage and cheating on the family..that dysfunction needs to be aired and faced. The ws are feeling deep pain and deep loss so they want to move on FAST..but that is like leaving the scene of an accident..they have to deal with the wreackege left behind..this is imkportant stuff thats why i counsel a therpist's help..i think the WS owes the BS the effort to define the why
JB

No worries about the [censored] comment JB, we're just guys talkin right? And I agree with you to an extent. However, the reality seems to be that there oftentimes are no satisfactory reasons. "I was unhappy" seems to be a common reason. And sure, that is a reason, but it isn't very satisfying.

There comes a point where you have to decide if the damage done in getting to the WHY is worth it. I say that because I really do think it is possible to build a successful M after infidelity without really knowing the why. This is not something I have as yet successfully implemented or internalized, but I think it is possible and oftentimes necessary if the M is to be salvaged.

Im just coming on this thread now and would like to weigh in. Im hoping a perspective from a feminine mind will not be unwelcome!

First, TIM - BRAVO to you on what had to be just a horrific month. Youve done an amazing job and have alot to be proud of. YOU have built the foundation on which to save your family. What you did was amazing, truly.

In reading this thread, I see alot of my H in your W. At the beginning in the months immediately following d-day, he was saying all the right things but failing to follow up on any of his promises. I did all the heavy lifting, reading the books, asking him to read along - posting here and meeting not only his top 5 emotional needs but every single one of the 10 that Harley outlines. My H? He basically let me do it all. I can tell you this - I very quickly got to a point of major resentment. After all HE had the A. He destroyed ME and I was busting my butt? WTF? I guess what I am trying to say is that your W is very much in withdrawal and not capable of giving much *however* now is the time to set the bar for recovery.

You need your W to explore the meaning of the A. That is understandable. Quite simply you need this because you cant feel safe unless you know "why" . That is why you will see so many threads on these boards asking that very same question. The why. You say that your W is uncomfortable with therapy, that hse isnt inclined to be introspective. That she "doesnt believe in it". Fine. Explain to her that YOU dont believe in affairs and adultery but she made that a reality so now is the time for her to pony up and step the ****** out of her comfort zone.

Your W's behavior, like my H - smacks of classic freeloader behavior. Bill Harley has an excellent book called "Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders. It describes the dynamic of these relationships perfectly. I highly recommend it.

My H has improved dramatically over the past 19 months. He is much better and works hard at our M. You know what? Even though he does this, Im still not sure I can stay in the M in the wake of the destruction of his A.

The point is recovery is very hard. Even if a spouse is "on board" it is still hard. So buckle up and be prepared for the ride of your life!

JustKim - Thanks for chiming in. I am definitely interested in improving my understanding of how the feminine mind works!

As for your "bravo" to me, that made me realize that I have been remiss in thanking everyone who has replied to this thread and offered their encouragement and words of wisdom. I would not have survived this last month without your collective support. My part was easy - all I had to do was follow the great advice I was getting from all of you.

As for my W and the meaning of the A, yesterday I told her that she does need to get more engaged in the process for the reasons you mentioned. Late yesterday she started to read HNHN so I guess I should take that as progress. Interestingly when I asked her today what she thought so far, she replied that it was all fairly obvious (I agree) but that in looking at the EN survey she is not sure that she knows herself well enough to answer the question. To which I thought - but didn't say - "great, even the parts that I thought might be fairly easy are going to be difficult".

I have heard from many posters and read in several books the warning to prepare for the ride of my life, etc. I just hope that I am up to it. My productivity at work has suffered because I am consumed by this and the thought of many additional months (or even years!?) is almost too much to contemplate. I am a co-owner of a small business that cannot survive without significant personal attention from me and my partner. I was really struck by your comment about your uncertainty even after 19 months of working on recovery. Yikes! I hope I know one way or another sooner than that. But maybe that's just not realistic.

TIM,
My wife kind of said the same thing about EN's. She read HNHN, but wasn't sure exactly what her top ENs were. It may be hard for someone to name them right after they were introduced to the material. You can probably be pretty confident that after a few weeks of mulling it over, it will become clearer to her and she can share with you.

I also had/have a lot of the same work related problems that you describe. My productivity plummeted during the month of the affair and is slowly getting better now, nearly 9 months later. I still dwell on the A often and spend way more time on this message board than I should during the work day. I just find it so hard to concentrate on some work related tasks when I have this 500 lb gorilla looming over me.

How did the resignation go?
Any fallout?

Boy, can I relate to this. My H is not a terribly introspective person. My top EN is H & O. It is something that my H can never seem to meet because he doesnt understand himself well enough to even *know* what he is feeling 1/2 the time. My H always used to say that he had an A because he was very unhappy in our M. It was NOT reassuring to me to know that he didnt know himself well enough to know what made him happy in the first place. I mean, how do you deal with that? The one thing that I did do was offer lots of positive encouragement when he did soemthing I told him I needed like read a book. Some days, Id sooner bash him over the head with the bloody book but I but my tongue and did it anyway.


I would imagine that is entirely subjective. In my own case, for the first year post d-day, I was terrified to lose my H so I accepted whatever he gave me. Somewhere along the way, I've come to realize that I deserve alot more than what exists in our M. I would have been willing to settle for it pre A, but now... in the post A world, no can do. Things have to work for me. Which means HE needs to do some work. Perhaps your moment of decisiveness will come sooner. All that depends on your W and how much effort she is willing to put in to making this work.
What that has meant for my H and I suspect your W as well is that they have some difficult work to do that is not in their comfort zone. They have to stretch.

My own eyes were very much opened by reading the Harley book I mentioned above. I came to realize that I was a buyer who was married to a freeloader. Im trying very hard to break out of that dynamic.

My own experience may not be yours. Your W could be a recovery pro and things may go smoothly for you. By all estimates, recovery takes a min. of 2 years. So be good to yourself and just hang in there

Lexxxy - Thanks for asking. Tyk referred me a few days ago to some posts of yours which I found interesting and insightful (wrt what may be my W's perspective).

OM announced his resignation to the team at the end of practice last night. My son and I left soon after before any parents would have had an opportunity to hear the news. The fallout, if any, will come this weekend as we have games Sat and Sun.

TIM

Great news about OM stepping down! I know I would get some satisfaction out of that.

I believe the 2 year time line is pretty accurate, however, it isn't always as hard as it is the first several months. Recovery is MUCH better than the months leading up to the discovery of the A and the time between D-day and when recovery starts.

I am about 4 months into recovery, and I am MUCH more at peace now than I was even 2 months ago. Of course, I have a W that is working the plans with me for the most part, although if you read in my thread you will see that there was a time early on where I had the same frustrations as you and my W wasn't pulling her weight. That changed quickly. I believe in part because the plans are not one sided. I suspect many WS think any attempt at recovery is really going to consist of beating them up over the A. When they see that recovery really is about finding a way to move beyond the A and learning how to build a better M they warm up to it. At least, that's how its working out for me. I hope for the same (even better) for you!

And a quick shout out to JustKim! She was very helpful to me (along with many others) when I first got here. I'll be forever greatful!

Tim
just a few more thoughts
try doing the R..1day at a time..lumping it into the whole enchalada can be daunting.
some insigts into being a male
we are evaluators... comes with the gonads.. men will be thinking
"is this worth it" and ""OMG !! what if i'm wasting my time..""
you arent wasting time.. no matter what happens.. you are working on improving your family life and on improving your life..
one step further down the zen path..
try being GENEROUS with your wife....and doing the "work" for you kids.. and GOD
another thing men dont realize is how much we NEED emotional support..most married men get it ALL from wife and kids...we get scared when we think we will lose our families...then OMG !
your wife on the other hand has been scretly believeing that she will keep all the family support.. that isnt true and she is starting to realize THAT. she fears losing the kids support and being outed to her friends and your social circle..bad news for her
both you AND she will be dealing with an emotional rollercoster..hopefully WE can prepare you.. she will be dealing with it on her own ..thats why she isnt "working on stuff".. she wants to get back to "safe and sound" status quo, pre "D" day.
Your actions on working on your marriaqge will gently remind her of her chance to repair your relationship..but gently gently on your part.. she is very scared at this time
JB

TiM

Ditto on the great news re: OM stepping down. Im not surprised. I figured once his W found out he would no longer partcipate in the team. Glad to know that is one less trigger for you to deal with not to mention your son. That is alot for a young kid to deal with.

Jerseyboy has a point. As I said earlier your W isnt capable of giving more right now. It is grossly unfair but a simple reality. She is in withdrawal and will be for some time. I remember my H telling me he *wasnt* in withdrawal at all because it felt like that to him. He KNEW he wanted to be with me and recover our M and was incredibly grateful to me for giving him another chance. Even though he knew that and felt like he wasnt in withdrawal in retrospect, he now realizes this isnt entirely true. He went from being idealized by the OW to facing reality with me. He had to see the hurt and devastation he put me through and face his own truth about himself, who he really was. He wasnt a god after all. Just a man who made some pretty bad choices. So even though he knew he wanted our M it was still a transition. It took about 8 months for him to turn into the man he is today, which is someone who appears to be fully committed to our M, who works hard to meet my EN's and who is truly engaged in us.

Your W will get there. It will just take time. In the meantime, focus on you. Be the best H and father you can be. Meet her EN's and do whatever you need to do for you to heal. If that means reading here more than you would like, so be it. When I first came here, I dont think I met a single work deadline for a year. I was entirely focused on reading and learning as much as I could. The A, and my feelings about it consumed me. I couldnt do anything else. It fades. I now go weeks without reading here and rarely post anymore. It WILL get better.

And a brief TJ - Hidey Ho to Tyk! Ive been following your thread and see your posts from time to time on other threads. Youve quickly become one of my fav's. Ive been cheering for you!