Ending the A and agreeing to NC IS closure. The way it ended is the way it had to end, and even if they "said thier goodbyes" or whatever, there still would not be any feeling that it ended properly, because she would know that you did not support her in any further contact, making it yet another instance where she chose OM over you, the marriage, and her family. There is no proper ending for an improper relationship in far as what can take place between her and OM. There is a proper ending for it as far as you are concerned, and that is NC, period, for life. There is nothing for them to explain, nothing that needs to be said, nothing they can say to each other that will make anythign any better. They both knew going in that they were playing with fire. Just let your W know that NC is very important to you and that you view her maintaining NC as a statement signifying her choosing the marriage.

I believe my W is upset that OM has never tried to contact her. She has not said this but she has said that she is surprised he never did. I somehow refrained from throwing out the expected "so much for you being important to him, huh" comment. It didnt' need to be said though, she gets it.

Same here - I think it really affected my FWW when she found out that the OM didn't contact her after NC was fully in place. Frankly, it's obvious from his behaviour that he considered her little more than "booty call" material, to use when the other female he was having an affair with was not available. He played her well and got her job in the process. And of course when he got what he wanted, he had no more use for her, so establishing NC was easy.

On the bright side, at least this means that the OM isn't hanging around and damaging our recovery.

OK, this is going to be a long ramble, Ive been traveling alot and unable to post.

starting here -->


What I would make of that is that your W is still very foggy. What it sounds like she is saying is "I wasnt ready to end the A, but you caught me and forced my hand so I had to send a NC letter if I wanted to save my M. Id appreciate the oportunity to contact OM so I can see if he s still interested in continuing the A in case things dont work out with us". I dunno, TiM - maybe Im off base on this but the word "closure" in context of an A scared the heck out of me. She has closure. Its called NC, period.

I do think Tyk and others are on to something. I know the OW in my case ( who was by best friend) was unhinged for months because all her attempts at contacting my H post D-day were ignored. She was a bunny boiler for some time and we still hear from her every once in a while. She couldnt accept that my H wasnt going to contact her. I know that it would irk me. Women HATE to be ignored. On top of that, your W is facing the reality that, once discovered - all the sweet nothings OM poured out are now exposed as a bunch of BS. By the OM NOT contacting her, it probably very much feels that she's been thrown under the bus. She has to accept that she's been fed a line of bull and what does that say about her? How stupid, how utterly ridiculous she must feel.

On wanting to talk about the A and trying to construct some meaning:

From Shirley Glass:



This last part is important, I think TiM, because it illustrates your need to talk about "When you were involved w A, I was feeling X and that made me feel unsettled and question my own sanity. It is the only way you can heal. Does that make sense?

Tyk, MiM and JustKim - Thanks. I agree with your assessment of the need for closure. Bottom line is that it's difficult for me to determine where my W is in the process of either recovery or withdrawal. Though she is talking more to me now than ever before about "issues" it is still 95% me talking and feeling like I am dragging her through. I told her again this morning that I need to know about her feelings that lead to her decision to have the A (or A's) so that we can understand if those feelings are things that can be addressed in the context of our M or in IC or not at all (i.e. if there is a fundamental incompatibility between our morals and values). I stressed again that I see the A as an opportunity for us to start over and that I am hopeful that we will do so and do a better job this time of taking care of ourselves and each other. However, I added that if through introspection and discussion one of us determines that we do not want to recommit to our M then this would be the time to end the M rather than repeating the mistakes of the past and going through this process again. She agreed with all of that and said that she too wants the "new beginning" but my brain will not allow me to respond very much to her words alone. I need to remind myself that this is a lengthy process and that patience is essential. But witnessing her laid-back, not-very-enthusiastic approach and not interpreting that as a lack of commitment (and I guess remorse) on her part is a big, big challenge for me. I know this something that all of you have had to endure but that doesn't seem to make it any easier for me.

Of course it doesnt. How could it be easy? The aftermath of an A is just horrific.

My H and I had a long discussion last night where admitted that for the entire 1st year of our recovery, he basically coasted. He admitted he took advantage of all my plan A efforts pre and post d day. He did *some* work, but I did all the heavy lifting while continuing to meet every EN in the book. An entire year. Only now am I starting to see some payoff. part of me is happy I stuck around to get the benefit and another part of me is struggling with resentment of how much I gave for so long, with so little return.

So, I can relate.

I guess I meant easy in a relative sense. I have read posts from some where it seems that the WS is very demonstrably remorseful and motivated to do whatever it takes to recover. That to me would be the best case and is very different from what I am experiencing with my W (and as you said, JustKim, you can relate).

A part of me feels like I need to stop whining about it and try to get on with my life. And to an extent I have been doing that (I try to save the whining for this board) but sometimes a random thought will hit me that takes over my brain for a while.

One other thing that I have failed to mention is that I suspect that my W may be depressed and perhaps has been for a number of years. I have always been careful to not appear to be "analyzing" her but since she left her job about 8 years ago she has been a SAHM. She spends almost all of her free time watching TV (soap operas or chick flicks) or reading novels. She has not shown any interest in taking classes, volunteering, developing a hobby, etc. I know that I would go insance with that existence but I have repeatedly stressed to her that I would support her in whatever she may want to do and have encouraged her to whatever makes her happy (please no jokes from you all re the A). Perhaps she found that the only excitement in her life was obtained from going with friends to AC and Vegas and ultimately via the A. She also has been very quick to anger, usually out of all proportion to the triggering event. Anyway, just wondering if depression could be a cause. But still I would not be sure how to address.

Good for you, TiM.

When dealing with BH's, it has been my observation that those BH's who truly distance themselves from the situation to where they can evaluate it rationally and are strong enough to realize that they will be fine whether they R their M or not are the ones who give themselves a true shot at R with a repentent and remorseful FWW.

The BH's, who through their words or actions, convey to the WW that they will remain in the M no matter what are the ones, who more likely than not wind up with a less than desirable M, even though they claim to be recovered.

A BH simply can NOT unconditionally recommit to the M too quickly and expect a WW to do her share of the heavy lifting in recovery. The BH has just "left the door open" for the WW to do as little as possible, plus the BH comes off looking weak, which is even a further turn off for the WW.

IMHO, you are doing great and will either have a fully recommitted "F"WW or you will have a fulfilling life without her.

Oh boy - do I know that feeling!

And now, over 2 years since D-Day, I still feel that way. Are you both seeing an MC? That was not an opportunity open to us at the time, and I think it would have really helped if there was an informed 3rd party involved that helped both of us. I'm finding some help here in the forums. It's good to be able to bounce ideas off of others in the same or similar predicament. My FWW - she's not seeking out help anywhere. I get the impression that once we're still under the same roof and her A remains a secret, then that's "good enough". Of course it isn't good enough. It wasn't good enough before, and it certainly isn't good enough now.

If you have the chance to do MC with a pro-M C, then do it. Doing this stuff on your own is a bit like trying to rebuild your home without experience or an instruction manual... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

I can see what you're getting at there MR. OTOH, I think that at the beginning of the recovery, a "foggy" self-centered and selfish WS is probably not going to readily agree to any recovery "conditions" laid down by their BH, particularly if they're suggested as something the BH needs immediately rather than as a long term goal. Timing and tactics are important.

I think you've misunderstood what I was trying to communicate.

I'm NOT talking about any recovery conditions for the WW ... I'm talking about the simple fact that the BH "IS" willing to leave an unfulfilling M should a satisfactory R not be achieved is what a BH needs to communicate through his words and actions from D-Day forward, that will ultimately achieve those goals.

It is the BH, who on D-Day and thereafter makes weak statements like "I'll do whatever it takes for you to return to the M" or "I'll be here for you NO MATTER WHAT" that set themselves up for continuing disappointment, because they have given their WW's a free pass on their destructive behavior.

It all comes down to "self-respect" ... if a BH respects himself enough to NOT stay in the M "NO MATTER WHAT", then he at least shows the WW that he will not tolerate continued dis-respect from her if she wants to R, also.

It is my opinion that not all marriages are worth recovering, and not all WW are worth having. Just because a couple doesn't D after an A, doesn't mean that they are Recovered either.

The recovery bar needs to be set high by the BH for the WW to ever carry her weight in R, which also means that he be WILLING to go to Plan D if the condition of the M remains unsatisfactory. I just see too many BH's here willing to accept marital crumbs from their WW's, to avoid D at all costs, only to show back up in the future wondering why they can't get from "in recovery" to "recovered". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

MyRevelation - Thanks for your input. I have consistently said to my W since d-day that I will not settle for our old "normal". This has to be a "do-over" - I'm not willing to sign-up for more of how things were pre-d-day.

So on that I am clear. And that I was able to get past the "I will do whatever it takes to stay M" phase was HUGE for me and actually occurred prior to d-day. In fact, that is what probably allowed me to finally act on my suspicions and discover the A.

The trick now is to determine when to pull the plug on this if W is not demonstrating through her actions her committment to R our M. I guess my gut will tell me when it's time.

Even though she and I discussed this earlier today, she has spent the day watching TV and has not touched a book or done anything else that would suggest that she meant the things she said this morning.

If we remain stalled in our R effort I may schedule a MC appt (maybe a couple of weeks from now) and ask her to join me. Her unwillingness to do so would say a lot I suppose.

Any thoughts on my earlier comments re her possible depression?

I agree with what MR is saying, and I think TiM gets it too, him stating that if the M is to end, this is the appropriate time to do it is exactly how I felt.

I basically said to my W that I did not want to waste my time trying to recover the M if she were not willing to do what I needed, and really, that wasn't all that much. I believe setting the bar high gives the BS the chance to really find out if the WS is committed to recovery, and also gives both the WS and BS the chance to really build a M that is satisfying to BOTH of them. Which is what I interpret MR to be saying.

I think we all recognize that recovery is a two way street. I think most WS do not initially recognize this, and feel that "recovery" means "attacking the WS for the A".

TIM,

Tyk said: "I think we all recognize that recovery is a two way street. I think most WS do not initially recognize this, and feel that "recovery" means "attacking the WS for the A"."

I'm wondering if part of this withdrawal, recommitment process is self-fulfilling expectations...where WS hear the attack though there isn't one. There expectation is set so firmly, was used to justify the A...so that they experience the beginning of recovery as an attack for any A-related questions or even the BS sharing their own stuff?

LA

LA - Good to hear from you. You ask a good question to which I say "who knows?" At the moment I am filled to the brim with trying to understand and empathize and learn and not step on toes blah blah blah. I really want to be all those things and have the patience that the process apparently will require but... my family depends on me to generate income and I am consumed by this crap. I have to keep telling myself that the M is worth it - to me and to my kids - and that I just need to hang in there but some days it is all just very trying.

Funny how when I started this thread and named it, I really had no idea what was in store and how very apt that name is.

It sucks alright. It is going to suck for a very long time. Some days still suck for me. It is very unfair.

Think of it this way. The A is a bat and your W just beat you within an inch of your life. It hasnt been that long since D-Day for you. You would still be in intensive care, no doubt. You wouldnt be at work at all. It is going to be some time before you are up and about. Its OK for you to do what you are doing.

The obsessing, its all part of it. You are searching for a way to put your life back together.

RE: Your W's possible depression? I wouldnt want to speculate on that but it does sound like she is possibly bored. The A might have been an escape, a way out of drudgery.

Have you filled out the EN questionaires yet? Do you know what her EN's are? Does she?

TIM,

I agree with your thread title...seemed insightful to me!

I do understand how consuming this is...I remember it well. To ease the draining feeling on your energy, watch your thoughts. You get to actually choose them...takes practice and time. I don't believe you're stuck at all...and if you choose to see this as you moving her...you'll feel even more stuck.

Did you read the link in my sigline to JustLearning's post?

One thing I didn't do well in the stage you are in with my WH was to NOT know the way through...reading, studying, going to MC--I had to know what comes next, what was progress, what wasn't...because WH doesn't read, doesn't communicate...so all I had for work on the marriage really was MC sessions...and his homework for them was separate from mine...I do understand your frustration, your hurt and your fear.

And I trust your gut. Only part of what influences your gut is what you choose to assume...how to view her...if you measure her carefully, with full focus on her stuff or not...or if you're minding your own stuff well and true.

Only you know...and in that consumed state...can be hard to tell. Choose your thoughts...put them through a filter of assumption...find your old ways of assuming her stuff...the guessing, which can allay fear, a false knowing.

Be brave enough to state you DON'T know the way through...don't know if she's depressed, agreeing and then not doing...that you are clueless. Tell her you need a guide who knows the path...make the MC appt...so that you know if she goes, she's doing. Ask MC for communication exercises...they really help. No way to measure another's commitment...that's to our standards, for us...yet every appt she attends, each exercise she does...that's action.

Sounds like you really want action.

And each time you are safe in the exercises, you clearly do not attack or beat her with the A...and I don't think you do...she'll be clearer on what you're really sharing...how great a marriage you really want to build...and those self-fulfilling expectations of hers may become really obvious and unreasonable to her.

When you find the way together...then you are team building for your marriage...not one another's monitor...though it can feel very much like you are right now...because it's tenuous, your partner was recently an enemy of your marriage.

And withdrawal can look very much like depression...just as JustKim describes really well...fantasy wasn't alluring for no reason...would you consider asking her about herself now...getting acquainted, like a new person? We began doing the Gottman exercises in "Seven Principles that Make Marriage Work" during this same time period you are in. He has a similar approach as Harley does (friends of good conversation) in the four horsemen of the apocalypse to communication in the beginning of the book.

Affection exercises...a lot of RC time...this is what we did...hope it helps.

LA

JK - Thanks for the beating analogy. I like it.

My W has not yet completed the ENQ. She started to read HNHN a few weeks ago but stopped when she began After the Affair. She said that she disagrees with what she read in HNHN. She did not elaborate. She did say that she is not sure she knows how to answer the EN questions. I don't know if that reflects confusion about what her needs are or maybe that they are a moving target. Or something else.

Re the A as an escape from drudgery, I hope not. I feel like over the years I have really encouraged her to pursue any number of escapes and told her that I would do whatever I needed to do to enable her. As for domestic responsibilities she would admit that I handle more than 50% (in some cases much more). There is a certain drudgery to everyone's life but an A seems like a really bad solution / distraction.

Yes, well - Steve Harley once explained to me that if the wounds inflicted by an A were physical, we would all be in intensive care. I believe it.

I understand what you are saying about your W's A and escapism. But, that may be true. In my own case, my H was "unhappy". HIs needs werent being met and he was "looking for something to make him happy". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I was unhappy too, but I still didnt have an affair, you know? The point is, he was looking to escape from a relationship that wasnt working for him. Isnt that really what most A's are, on the most fundamental level?

Can you ask your W what she doesnt agree with in HNHN? Because following the principles outlined in that book really work. In a million years, I would never have thought that I could have stayed with my H after his A. A's are anathema to me. But, Im still here, 2 years later. It is only because of the MB principles that Ive learned. If I hadnt found this site, we would have been over on D-day + 2.

Can you do a phone session with Steve Harley? Both of you? That might kick start things for your W. He just *gets it* and can lay out an excellent plan of recovery for you.

I will ask my W about her reaction to HNHN. I remember her saying something to the effect that it seemed to be about "what guys need to do to get laid" so I am not optimistic that our discussion will be too informative but it's worth a shot.

What do you think about me guessing at what her ENs are, i.e. completing the ENQ from her point of view? Do you think this could break the ice (or logjam) or is that likely to cause more harm than good?

Also, I noticed on the questionnaire that there are spaces for add'l ENs. Have any of you found that there are other ENs that are not listed on the Q?

Well, she is entitled to her opinion of the book, naturally.

My comeback would have been something like "SF is pretty important to a married man, but I thought the book was about how a couple can achieve a mutually satisfying marriage." And you could follow that up with: "One area that Harley wrote about is the importance of [your-best-guess-at-her-top-EN-here], and I've started to think that this is something important to you that I have not been doing a good job at. What do you think?"

Okay, I'm not really that quick on my feet. But it might give you a clue about her top EN, and possibly motivate her to give the book a second chance, especially if you are telling her that it helped you find something you did wrong. What spouse wouldn't want to see that book!

And by all means do the ENQ for her. She can always correct you later; meantime it is a good thought process for you.

- WG