I've often wondered about this. Perhaps its a FAQ, but I thought it deserved a thread so I stated one here.

For myself, HNHN really got me thinking. I couldn't have articulated "Recreational Companionship" but it is a significant need for me. And "Admiration" is a top need of my STBX that I was pretty clueless about.

Best addition I've got is something like "Organization and Reliability". I learned about it the hard way, wishing my spouse were that way naturally. Having 'good common sense', steady in a crisis, can follow driving directions without getting lost or give directions another can follow, things promised get done, lateness isn't chronic, doors tend to get locked.

I've some controlling tendencies and some Germanic ancestry. This might just be some form of "Domestic Support".

- WG

WG - Thanks for chiming in. In fairness to my W I think she only read the first 2 chapters so we are not yet ready to discuss the entire book. She may have also been reacting to what I think can be construed as Harley's somewhat simplistic approach to relationship building/maintaining. Though I find the MB principles very appealing (and in fact if I were starting over I would balk at starting a relationship with someone who disagreed with these concepts) the examples that are used and the writing style sometimes leave me feeling "if only it were that easy". I think that for many people there are reasons (e.g. from their childhood or early relationships) that explain their current behavior or choices and are not so easy to ignore. They may know that meeting EN and avoiding LB are good things but be unable to implement.

And by the way this was not an attempt by me to justify or excuse an A.

TIM
just a quick reminder..take care of YOUR basic needs.. plenty of rest and exercise..cut back on alcohol and do soem happiness meditation.. On this forum you seem to talk of nothing but what you can do to repair M...
there are some basic princiloples you need to remember..
this process will probably take a long time..be prepared
Get into THERAPY.. get a profesoinal's HELP.. thees people are allies and helpers..
and she MAY BE depressed.. get her to a DOC even if it is a GP.. a specialist is better
see a therapist and work out a PLAN..if you know you are going in the right direction..you wont panic every time you seem to hit a bump.. and also get some advice about what a WW is experiencing right now.. also daytime tv is CRAP.. if all she is hearing is how BAD husbands are and how much she is entitled to.. this cant help her attitude.. Is she doing you a FAVOR by being married to you ??? BOTH you and she need to GET that your happiness isnt dependant on HER
JB

Well, it would be better if she were to fill them out BUT I cant tell you based on my conversations w Steve Harley, nearly all women have the same top 5 needs"

Affection
Conversation
Honesty and Openness
Financial Support
Family commitment

In my own case, I deviate from that somewhat. I could care less about financial support because Im financially comfortable on my own. So, another need takes that place, and so on. It is also important to understand what the EN "affection" ( or whatever....) means to HER. Perhaps your definition of that need and hers differ so you may think you are meeting that need, but are missing the mark.

Your W's comment that MB is about what guys need to do in order to get laid is telling. If she is willing to follow the program on a trial basis, she would realize that her life and M would improve dramatically.

You can also do what I did during the dark days which was to meet EVERY EN. I didnt know what my H's were, so I met every single one of them. However... I caution you against doing that for too long. Its exhausting and builds resentment but it *does* work. I even wanted to be married to me!

Those first couple chapters of HNHN are pretty lame imo. I mean, they're correct and all, but the sex discussions are pretty clumsily written! The rest of the book is much better though!

Well, yesterday sucked. Triggered by learning that I will need to travel quite a bit over the next couple of months. W asked if I was upset about that because I can't trust her or that it will take time away from us working on stuff. I said "both" and added that difficulty trusting was due in part to her not yet having told me what lead to her unhappiness and decision to have the A and what she got from OM that she couldn't get or wouldn't take from me. She did not answer the question and much anger ensued followed by shutdown followed by increasing anxiety in me as the day went on. By last night I felt nearly as bad as I did on d-day and was ready to call it quits.

This morning I started reading Gottman's "Seven Principles that Make Marriages Work" which was helpful as it began to lead my thinking in a different and less destructive direction. Specifically, realizing that my W and I have an absolutely horrendous way of arguing filled with LB on both sides.

Later this morning I said to my W that I had realized that each of us has issues that we brought to our M and that have contributed to the erosion of love between us. And that I hope we each can be introspective enough to uncover those and then find a way to change for the better. And I reiterated my desire to do everything in my power in that regard but that if our issues are such that we can't lovingly coexist then we should D. She then voluntarily provided a chronological history of the emotional state of our M, as she sees it. It amounted to a littany of bad behavior on my part (various LBs but she described differently as she has not read the book) that made her feel a bunch of different bad things and resulted in her developing, as she put it, a "f*** you" attitude toward me and ultimately her decision to have the A.

Interestingly there was no talk of me not meeting her ENs but I gather that she would not allow them to be met because all of my LB had drained the account.

So my question is: as this all seems very plausible to me, is "fixing us" really as "simple" as me eliminating LB (and of course my W doing same)? And what do I do with the A and its effect on me/us? I mean, I now feel almost to blame for everything bad in my M, which I know is ridiculous. Actually as I try to finish this post I realize that I don't know how I feel about any of this.

TIM,

You are going to feel extremes during recovery...just as you have since DDay...one day hopeful, another day hopeless.

If you choose to ACT from your feelings...either way...then you're choosing to do what she did...to choose from her feelings, not her convictions.

Learning about LBs...what you did in your marriage, you also did to yourself inside, as well...and to others. So eliminating those, see where they act out your emotions instead of own them, well, can dramatically change your life in a lot of ways.

Including your marriage.

You're not powerful enough to have done more than half the damage in your marriage...because you were only and all of your half. No more and no less. She shared her POV...her experience...which makes it hers. Just like her choices.

Separate from reality. Same for you. The actions are reality...and you see how dangerous, unreasonable and harmful it is to choose them based on your feelings instead of your beliefs.

Just like loving...to not act loving because you don't feel like it is as damaging as acting your anger when you feel angry...frustration when you feel frustrated...and on and on.

When we physically leap with joy...yes, we're acting it out...okay to do as we say, "Gosh, I'm so happy (thrilled, inspired, delighted)"...yet A's, LBs are acted out without the words...no accompaniment of our truth, are they?

Blame, like offense, must be taken. Cannot be put on you...you remain responsible for all things you...your stuff...your actions...your choices. Period. Your half.

I'm sure your WW felt like she was doing more than her half at times...remains impossible, doesn't it? We are two whole people in one union...each are half...watch what you reach for...more blame, more control...not real.

LA

It is really as simple as that, as far as building a solid foundation goes. Following MB principles such as eliminating LB's, meeting EN's, POJA and all the rest work. It builds substaintial balances in one anothers love banks and restores a feeling of "love". BUT - both partners have to do it. If only one of you does it, well- then that will lead to a very happy spouse on the reciever end and a resentful spouse on the giver end. That is what happened in my case for the first year of recovery. Things are turning around , but slowly.

Dealing with the A, that is another issue. Steve Harley can really help you put together a plan to heal. It works. Even one session will make a world of difference

JK - Thanks. I think yesterday was a big step forward in that it was the first time in our M that my W was that open with me about things. I know that I am committed to doing what it takes to eliminate my LB behaviors. We haven't discussed hers yet.

But, re her A, it seems to me that no M is perfect and though my W and I might work very hard and improve ours, it will still fall short of perfection.

So what I need to know/understand/believe is what my W will do differently next time she realizes - and feels - our imperfections. Seems to me that she took what seemed to be the easy way out by having an A rather than asking me to help her deal with our issues. So what could possibly give me comfort that she will not make the same choice in the future?

Is this not akin to wanting to know that a recovering alcoholic will not take a drink?

Is there a MB concept that, if followed, will give me the comfort that I am seeking?

If you can't attend a marriage builders weekend then I'd suggest getting the home study course and doing it together. Learning the concept may help to affair proof your marriage.
Otherwise, plan to attend the next MB weekend. You will be given a follow up program to use afterwards during the year after.

Its called Affair Proofing the marriage.

The idea is that when you build the marriage properly, then there is no possible way for the A to happen. There is no motivation for an A, as all primary needs are being met, there is no room for a secret life, as both partners are following the Policy of Radical Honesty, and there is no desire for an A, because both spouses lovebanks are full for each other.

You have to realize and accept that even though your W's decision to have an affair was wrong, and will always be wrong, and there will never be an EXCUSE for it, there are REASONS for it, and there are circumstances that allowed it to happen.

Do you think NOW that you would ever be so blind as to allow an A to happen again? No way is there? YOU KNOW now what life with an A looks like, there's no way you will let yourself be decieved like that again, is there? You also know what it takes to build a good marriage.

So, basically, IF you can get where you want to be, you won't have to worry about A's. So turn your focus from worries about the future, and take action in the present. Do what needs to be done to get your marriage on track and moving towards that point where it is in fact Affair Proof.

If you look at my thread, you will see that I struggled with these exact same questions. I guess the way I've dealt with it is to realize that at the end of the day, I cannot control my W and her decisions. I can do my 1/2 of the marriage, and try to show her the way to do her 1/2, but I can't do that for her. I do know, however, that if another A were to occur, my response will be much different. There will be no Plan A, there will be Plan D, and that's it. I have told her that this once we will try to recover, if she wants to have another A she can save us both alot of hassle and just file for divorce. I was pretty firm in telling my W that if she were unwilling to participate in recovery then I in fact WANTED a divorce.

Set the bar high. You have an advantage (if you can call it that) in that you KNOW that you don't want to live a live of adultery, on EITHER end of it. You have a plan in how to achieve that life. The question is whether you have a partner that wants those same things. If you don't, then the decision really is easy isn't it?

Sorry to babble bro, I am not so very far ahead of you and this issue took me a bit to muddle through as well.

TIM
tyk..hit a home run.. some really functional advice.
now that your wife hsa revealed what she was unhappy with about you.. you have an idea of the things to do or avoid to start building love..or to at least hold the line in your marriage... also think about what you are doing as something you are doing to help YOU
What do you need from her to relive you of the worry of a recuureing affair?..at least in the short term
You need to calm down and at least be able to function in your career..it seems as if you are trying to do to much all at once.. heal marriage and decied IF you want to heal marriage.. consider doing the healing now for you and kids...it isnt wasted effort
JB

Hows it going TiM?

Thanks as always for the replies.

Took advantage of the holiday weekend to take the family on a 3-day ski getaway. No relationship discussions. Just fun. A good time was had by all. W commented upon our return that she had a great weekend, that it had been a really long time since we had enjoyed being together like that, and that she hoped it was the first of many more to come.

So I am feeling pretty good about things at the moment.

But, W has also been talking more than ever about our future (including the possibility of us moving to a different part of the country) and I'm feeling a little spooked, almost like when you start to date someone and the talk turns prematurely to discussion of marriage. Of course I've kept this "spooked" feeling to myself but I feel like I want to get it off my chest somehow.

I did ask her today to read the summary of the MB basic concepts. I think maybe I asked her to do this in an attempt to get reassurance that we are on the same page with respect to the principles that we will commit to follow for the remainder of our M. She read the summary and said that she is still not a fan of Dr. Harley but that she agrees with the concepts. She seemed a bit unenthused about the topic and seemed to have a bit of the "can't we get beyond this?" tone in her voice. Our time for talk was short so that was the extent of the discussion.

I certainly don't want to sabotage our recovery but I think the rational (i.e. not the emotional) side of my brain is telling me to go slow re plans for the future.

I would be interested in hearing from others that have experienced "too fast" recovery. I don't want this process to take longer than necessary but I also don't want to be perceived by my W as keeping us stuck in the past and/or being an obstacle to a better future.

Tired
Of course I've kept this "spooked" feeling to myself but I feel like I want to get it off my chest somehow.

can you talk to a therapist? a clergy man.. some MAN you can trust not to BLAB to your wife
you are moving at the right pace..trust.
keep posting here
if you read up on the charcatersistics of WWives you will see her behavior as standard stuff
all the best
JB

I'd suggest telling her about the 'spooked' feeling. If you really believe MB principles work, then you ought to give her access to information about how you feel.

I took this as you feeling unsure about your committment to the M. Perfectly natural at this point. For that matter, you don't have to choose to preserve the M.

I'd be reluctant to make big changes (i.e., new job, moving, new house) until you have a better sense of where the M is going. Harley recommends extraordinary precautions to avoid a relapse in an A; moving may have an upside there.

- WG

I wonder if it is a female thing or just a personality thing, but my situation is opposite.It is my H who had an EA and he is the one who doesn't want to rush recovery and feels fake and presumptuous to talk too much about the future. I, however feel that sharing some excitement and future plans is important. It makes me feel that a positive outcomes is in both our minds and that we can discuss things that will make us feel good, instead of the hard sad stuff.
My opinion is only based on my my situation and everyones is different. Just thought i would share a female point of view.

kanne - thanks for offering your perspective.

As I thought more about this last night I realized that before I can allow myself to get excited about the future I want to hear from my W what has changed since d-day with respect to her feelings about me and us. I unfortunately learned of her A via an audio recording (admittedly not as bad as a video) in which I could hear the emotion (love) in her voice as she spoke with OM and later the hate she felt for me as she spoke with her best friend. I can accept that she had feelings for OM that were typical of what AP feel for each other but what I struggle with is how the hate that she expressed for me could have so quickly evaporated to the point that she is now talking about "happily ever after".

So as I said in my previous post, I don't want to sabotage our recovery but I am a bit skeptical I guess. Perhaps I'll just ask her to tell me what has changed for her in the last 6 weeks and see what she has to say.

TIM, are your conversations about your current state open and non-confrontational? If so, I think it would be fairly easy to present your feelings to her about your future.

I think your idea to ask what has changed in the last 6 weeks is a good one. I also don't think it's wrong to state that you're very concerned about sabatoging your recovery, but need to understand where she is and how she got there. Tell her that you are looking forward to your future and believe in it, but that you need to understand some details for you to allow yourself to be really excited about big changes you decide to make together.

KLD - Thanks.

I would say that our discussions have been very non-confrontational (until this morning - see below) and I do plan to ask the "what has changed" question at the next good opportunity.

As for this morning...

As I mentioned in an earlier post, after many lengthy discussions my W explained that my LB behavior over many years caused the erosion of her love for me such that she was not able to allow her EN to be met by me. Hence the A.

Since learning of this I have made a sincere effort (successful I believe) to reduce/eliminate my LB behavior, all while having to play the lead role (often solitary) in our recovery efforts.

One of my top ENs is SF. This I'm sure does not make me unique among males. My W and I have had many conflicts over the years centered around my interest in and her lack of interest. Makes much more sense now that I have been made aware of my LBing.

Since d-day her receptiveness to SF has declined steadily to "normal" levels, i.e. first couple of days she was insatiable, followed by receptive to my advances but did not initiate, followed by rejecting my advances.

I am struggling with this and don't know if I am being unreasonable.

What really has me feeling not so good is her rejection of me this morning. Not to be too graphic but I expressed interest in satisfying her with no expectation of reciprocation. She said she was not interested. Everything has been seemingly very good between us for the last week and she has recently initiated discussion about us maybe moving to a small rural town in a different part of the country (one of her dreams) and other talk about our future.

I know I shouldn't take her rejection of me so hard but I seemingly can't help it. Particularly difficult is knowing that she and OM made many prearranged visits to a hotel for the expressed purpose of SF, supposedly not one of her top ENs. So presumably she wanted to meet this EN of OM but is not willing to do this for me, even when (as in today) I am expecting nothing in return.

As an aside, long ago (~15 years) I arranged for a surprise meeting of the two of us at a hotel mid-afternoon with wine, food, candles, music etc only to be told by my W that she was "not really into that kind of thing". I guess times have changed.

I don't understand and I don't know how to handle constructively. Right now I am feeling foolish for allowing myself to start to feel close to her again. As a result I can feel myself slipping into shutdown mode which I know is a LB.

Any perspectives on this would be most appreciated.