God Bless...

ML,

If you are posting in response to me... I don't even recall anything you said to me that caused me to feel like I was being treated like the city dump and caused harm by you. But it must have got to the point that I thought, "I really want this to stop. This person is not listening." and so I decided not to further listen to what I found harmful.

However, when ONE PERSON goes so wacked that they think it's "OKAY" and "CALLED FOR"... and socially "acceptable" (doesn't speak well for the whole community) to call someone a prostitute nickname... and for people to have such lack of common courtesy or decency as to keep flaming... well, it certainly effected how I viewed ALL people's comments.

A person cannot behave in that level manner without impacting the person they are attacking... and having that impact effect how sensitive a person is to the remarks of others. Everything seems "heightened". That's what abusive behavior creates... an awful dynamic where people become increasingly sensitive... because they are being harmed.

A very hateful and vicious atmosphere was created.

well, when a community reacts to people who are sharing their own hurts and pains... in a very vulnerable time in their lives... and WHACKS EM GOOD!!!...

just really what would people expect to be the result???

That people are going to be "beaten into submission"???

No, people are going to get more and more unlike themselves and reactionary.

This crowd's efforts at "troll control"... need to be controlled.

I'll take people off iggy (a commonly used name for "ignore"... like slang and not childish)... when I feel better about this whole community.

For now, I'm not taking people off ignore. Not until I'm more "prayed up"... since the cliquey and moblike behavior of this board is such a terrible and dramatic change from what I've seen in the past.

No way am I going to expose myself to further abuse at this time.

Maybe later... but for now... I just remember a pastor telling us all that our ears (our eyes on the board) are not dumping grounds for someone else's trash.

(I can't even remember your comments or anything about you, really.)

God bless.

that's nice, back.

Back, you posted the following in another thread:

"Has anyone ever heard of "projection".
I saw sincerity in SD. Others saw other things. Usually, we project onto others what is in our own hearts.
(It's like one of those ink blot tests... what you see... reveals something... about... YOU.)
If she says she is sincere... and she sure seems so to me... where does all the cynicism come from?"

So, since you accused me of being an abuser, and you stated in your above post: "No way am I going to expose myself to further abuse at this time.", does that mean that YOU are an abuser and are projecting that accusation onto others?

BTW, your tendency to pretend that YOU are the ONLY, or the MOST, hurt person posting here, as your excuse to post hateful things yourself but play the victim if you are responded to in kind, OR even if you are just asked reasonable normal (NONABUSIVE) questions, has not decreased despite repeated attempts to educate you on how to post in a more civil manner.

I totally agree MelodyLane:

"Because it is in stark contrast to a glaring LACK OF CONCERN for the troll victims on this board. You don't seem to mind about that, you are only concerned that someone's feelings might be hurt over being called a troll. HOW ODD.

Where is your concern for the people who are TROLLED by board trolls? Can you direct me to that post?"

With all the concern for the troll-suspects (um suspects ONLY because they PERSIST in behaving in a troll-like manner) where is the concern for the victims of the trolls?
Why aren't the troll-defenders chastising the trolls for calling people names and making false accusations against others? I was falsely accused of being an abuser! I don't remember any of the troll-defenders speaking up to defend me against that rude accusation. There was no valid reason for that accusation to be launched against me. I didn't call names or post anything hateful.

BTW, the false assumption back persists in making, that WE can't possibly understand how incredibly hurt she was by her WH's betrayal, that she expects special treatment, that she has the right to post in a hostile manner towards us, because HER hurt surely must be far greater than ours, is highly offensive and insensitive IMHO. I doubt seriously that her WH's one adultery hurt her much, much,much, much more than my WXH's string of adulteries hurt me. Yet I have never expected the other posters here to put up with me calling them names or accusing them of abusing me!

"Instead of asking folks to change their SPEECH, it might make more sense to ask trollers to change their behavior."

Again, I agree. AND many of the regular posters here do exactly that. But then the troll-suspect and their defenders usually just interpret THAT as being 'abusive' to the troll-suspect...

It is when those suspected of being trolls PERSIST in their suspicious behaviors, that the feuding really starts. There seems to be a double standard: If you behave like a troll, and therefore are suspected of being a troll, and then you refuse to change your troll-like behavior, you can: call names, make false accusations, and be as rude and insenstive as you want... but your targets can't question you or defend themseves because if they do they would be 'abusing' the troll-suspect...

Way wierd IMHO.

Ok, the original question was: Do you really know how to ID a troll?

There have been a lot of discussion on this which I think is a good thing. Here are some of the highlights.

1. username is often a good indication.
2. anyone who provides no information regarding their own status and starts off on their very first post giving advice even though they have no idea what the MB principles are.

3.someone who registers and then immediately begins posting "advice" to newbies.[usually intended to confuse them out of following MB principles]

4.Or it may be someone who shows up with a wild, unbelievable story that seems specially concocted to STIR THE POT about a known and on going touchy subject

5. have another M or R website attached to their sig line, chances are HIGH they're trolling for business.

6. uses aliases to defend her point or take a shot at her opponent.


7. if MOST of their posts are about accusing other posters of being 'mean' to them, and they rarely post about anything else


8. No background provided, even when asked.

9, A way over the top story.

10. A post that seems just too naive (i.e. I cheated on my spouse, I don't understand why they are upset)

11. The first post asks for advice and all the following posts argue with the respones.

12. The first post jumps into an active thread to give advice that is uneccessarily arguementative.

13. One and done posters. Or maybe a couple of posts and done. (Similar to drive by posters).

14. Inconsistency of story.

15. Inability to walk away from a thread.

16. Opinions with no reasoning behind them.

17. Consistently contrarian advice on all topics.

18. works under cover of darkness, so pretending like a troll is not a troll only aides and abets his nefarious mission.

19. Trolls will eventually expose themselves.

20.Trolls don't read the basic principles of Marriage Building. They have never touched a Harley book - they ignore the terms of service requirement that they agree to study those basic principles before participating in the discussion board - reflecting the attitude toward such basic study requirements almost as if they were vampires in the presence of a cross.

21. They post subtle or obviously blatant ANTI Marriage Building advice.

22. They choose a name that denotes the sleaze of TOW persona

23. They choose a name of arrogance and superiority.

24. They post an advertisement to promote an alternative to Marriage Building.

25. targeting one particular suffering person or couple for harassment.

26. they're forum "noise".


These are very interesting POVs. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ok, here's my take...remember this is JMHO:

A. Trolls are not always easily identified but in time, they pretty much ID themselves.

B. Trolls' objective is about chaos and trouble. With time, the objective gets pretty clear.

C. Trolls love attention. Crave it. Must have it to survive as a troll.

D. Trolls like to use WS babble, reverse psychology and love to intimidate.

E. Trolls sometimes have split personality and even confuse themselves. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

F. Trolls are bullies on a mission to hurt the BS and family.

Well that's some of it. Now the question is with all this insight about trolls, how can we use this info to best id and handle them?

There have been a few ideas already. Let's see if we can come up with some constructive ones. Some here have techniques used to expose and get rid of trolls. If we can get their input, it may help.

Why this thread? Because in some cases, the name troll has been given to the wrong person. This isn't fair.

Instead of browbeating someone who may appear t/b a troll but in essence is really a confused Xws or even BS..... let's learn how to id and help the right way..... The right way would be one where constructive criticism works regardless of race, religion or creed. Why? Because if focus' on the issue at hand and uses the MB tools along with our empathy, sympathy and common sense.

IMHO, if we practice posting from this type of POV or something similar there w/b more discussions and less agressive posts.

JMHO,
L.

Orchid, I am happy with the way I treat trolls, but thanks anyway! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My dear Mel,

I am glad u r happy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> This post was intended to help us learn the skills for making a true troll ID. Not always possible but if it helps us avoid those who are NOT trolls but may need to help coming to the MB platform so we can give the general support we do provide, then hopefully this will help.

Sorry for the long sentence but I am hoping we can see that some come here (esp. Xws') and it is hard to get their real help because their WS title is read when they give their background info. If we don't learn to look past it and help them reach the 'MB platform' (my term for lack of a better description), then they may fail to get the benefit that is available here.

Some Xws' come from a M that ended in D and their is no choice but to move forward. Others come with the option to restore the M providing the BS is willing. Challenges reside on both sides. Helping them improve their lives is where I believe in some cases, we can help.

I also believe that true blue blood trolls don't want help and for those.....proper id and showing them the door is an act of kindness. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

Personally I liked *Takola*'s thread on EN getting bumped as a way of alerting every one that there was a troll and to not feed IT. How to Cook a Troll

How to Cook a Troll.... yea.. but they are really tough. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

and really hard to swallow! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I thought it was because they (trolls) were pee-u-trifried! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

L.

I'll bet my cat would eat it - as long as it smells nasty...

What amazes me, beyond even the way-wierdness level, is that this OW, intent on luring a man away from his wife using MB principles, a man that was never her husband as she lied to us, gets more support from some MB posters than people like I do. The people who chastised us to be nicer to her apparently have NO problem whatsoever with her calling me an 'abuser'!

BTW, let's not forget that one of the fave excuses for it being OK for HER to post insults and false accusations is that she supposedly suffered much, much, much, much.... more trauma than the rest of us did as a BW.... I was trying to point out the FACT that most of us posting have ourselves been struggling with being betrayed and that IMHO it was insensitive (and self-centered) for her to assume that our trauma was so small compared to hers, that we needed to be SO careful how we spoke to her, while she need not show ANY respect or empathy towards US. Well now, it turns out that she never even was a BS! So how about an apology from those who bought her too fragile to be questioned, even too fragile to behave nicely towards us, FARCE?!?!? Nope.

I just read the thread she started about Mother Teresa... makes me sick. She claims she has all these wonderful friends in real life who confirm that she is perfectly sane. I bet they'd change that opinion if they could see what she's posted at MB (past & present) and could see how she's treated people who really ARE suffering from the rejection and betrayal of a WS.

Then again, maybe not... Because even after it has been exposed what her real agenda is: that she is an OW intent on destroying a marriage, that she lied to all of us, that she doesn't even have the excuse that it's so painful for her to accept that her WXH has married the OW as her reason for getting away with posting so rudely and crudely to us... most of her defenders STILL persisted in defending her against the 'abuse' and 'attacks' of people like me!

So how are we to interpret the way she is defended yet myself and others are not?

Do her defenders STILL believe the man she is planning to seduce is her XH?

Do they STILL believe she suffered so MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more trauma from her XH leaving her for the OW than I or anyone else suffered?

Do they STILL believe it was OK for her to call us names and hurl insults at us?

Do they STILL believe she is owed an apology but that we are not?

What am I to make of it?

Maybe her defenders believe I am the one who has been lying to them for years? Maybe they don't believe that I really had anything happen to me that I am suffering and struggling to recover from?

There have been many days where MB was the ONLY place I could find somebody to talk to who I knew I could count on to understand, people who would not tell me that what my WXH did was OK, people who would not imply that the OW really was better than me or that if the OW and my WH wanted each other who was I to interfere with their happiness?, folks who would agree with me that adultery was wrong.

I can see now that MB is not the place I thought it was. Because I have been chastised for trying to reach and teach a poster who was intent on adultery. BTW, I didn't realize there were regulars at MB's who endorsed affair marriages! I wasn't opposing Back's agenda because I believed her WXH and the OW's marriage was valid in that sense; I was opposing Back committing adultery herself as her method of winning 'her WXH' back. And I shared with her the concern that maybe she was making the same mistake I had made by treating her WXH as if he were an idol instead of a mere mortal. Amazingly, even after it has been revealed that her WXH was never even married to her, she still garners more support than somebody like me...

Mimi posted that my leaving is an example of the tail wagging the dog... Nope - that dog was a-wagging away like crazy long before I left. Back is the tail and her defenders are the dog; Back did not drive me away - I never said she did. I made it clear that my reason for leaving was that I felt offended by her defenders' blind loyalty to her while failing to defend posters like me who she was attacking so viciously.

IMHO nothing that I posted to Back was inappropriate.
I didn't deserve the false accusations and vile insults that Back hurled at me. Of course I never in my wildest dreams believed Back would apologize to me. What I did expect (reasonably) is that my posts to Back would not be seen as somehow wrong and that I would be allowed to defend myself against Back's attacks of me.

I didn't leave because Back was mean to me. I didn't leave because I couldn't defend myself against Back. I didn't leave because I had lost my cool and posted anything to Back that I am ashamed of posting. I didn't leave because I violated any posting rules and was therefore edited or banned. I didn't leave because I am a sissy and can't take constructive criticism. I didn't leave because of Back.

I left because MB isn't the place I thought it was.

And NO I am not referring to people 'bullying' trolls and unrepentant adulterers! It is BECAUSE MB has apparently become just another haven for adulterers, where boldly opposing adultery is seen as 'cruel', that I no longer feel safe here. I can no longer count on MB to be THE safe place that I can go to when it seems the whole world excuses adultery. Because it has become crystal clear to me that not only will unrepentant adulters be 'tolerated' at MB's, they will also be coddled and 'protected' from anyone who might attempt to confront them with the truth and challenge them to change. I even saw a chastisement against me and some other regular posters for not warmly 'welcoming' an unepentent serial adulterer who states her current agenda is to marry the man she stole (is stealing - not sure if his divorce is final yet) from his BW!!! I know now that even if I am careful to never violate the posting rules, I will be chastised if I don't pamper adulterers who show up at MB's. That alone would be difficult for somebody like me who has gone through what I and my daughters are still struggling to recover from, to swallow. But the fact that even someone with as vile an agenda as Back KNOWS she can come to MB's and treat me and other posters who really ARE BS's with total impunity, while we are chastised for supposedly being 'mean' to her, is something that I not only can't swallow but can't even choke down on even my strongest of days. And the chastisement for being harsh to the serial adulterer shows me that even if my serial adulterer WXH had come here anyone who would have even dared to point out the fact that he is a serial adulterer and that he needs help to solve that problem, would have been opposed. I guess if the OW had come here with her plot to steal my WH away from me she would have been 'protected' from posters like me too. I'm sorry, but I find that repulsive and can't come here to read such garbage anymore. Does that make me 'wimpy'? Whatever....

I want to thank those who have tried to protect MB's from troll invasions and to keep it the safe place for BS's to retreat to in this world that becomes more adultery-infested, and more adultery-'tolerant' by the nanosecond. MB's was a great support to me in past years. But nowadays when I come to MB's it sickens me to see all the defense of adulterers.

I have a responsibility to myself and my daughters to protect myself somehow from the ever-increasing acceptance of adultery in our society. Instead of MB's being a place I can turn to for support, I now need to protect myself from the harm and discouragement I've encountered at MB's. For a while I thought maybe I could help keep MB's safe so that people like myself would not lose this treasure of resources and support. But apparently there are too many at MB's who would prefer it to be a safe-haven for folks like Back. BTW, I do not agree with the naive assumption that MB's can serve both purposes: any forum Back is made to feel safe in is very unhealthy and harmful for people like me. There's a reason I don't participate at TOW site. IMHO Back should be told to go there and stay there unless she drops her plot to steal another woman's husband. But I know there are too many at MB's who will never admit Back is not a victim...or that their kinder/gentler approach is even less effective at really reaching her than confronting her with the truth.

I do want to say, ForeverHers, that I admire your IMMENSE patience with Back and sincere Christian approach. However, I see that even though your handling of Back has been undoubtedly above reproach, you have admitted some frustration with her persistant deceptions. IMHO Back will reward her defenders and admirers only as long as they continue to bow down to her and/or show her much, much, much, much, much, much more compassion and concern than they do the TRULY heartbroken BS's at MB's... But if anyone tries to confront her lies and/or sinful agenda Back will continue to either ignore them or accuse them of 'abusing' her.

And heaven forbid if anyone tries to chastise Back into treating the BS's she bashes in a more civil manner OR even just tries to warn newcomers about her!

Back may indeed have some mental/emotional problems.
If so, FEEDING her belief that she is so special that she is entitled to pretend she has God's endorsement in planning to steal another woman's husband, DEFENDING her entitlement to bash BS's at MB's while enjoying an army of defenders against anyone she falsely accuses of 'abusing' her, will ONLY serve to make her more selfish and sociopathic IMHO. My baby brother and my WXH have never had any problem finding sympatizers either, well-meaning folks who would tut-tut at how 'mean' their families were for not recognizing their 'special' status, not coddling them further into insanity... Back NEEDS people to stop coddling her and to stop excusing her selfishness, rudeness, cruelty towards others, and sinful agenda.

There is also the possibility that Back is just a troll and her whole story is made up. In that case while I was posting in tears of frustration the other night she was probably in tears from laughing so hard at the folks who fall for her foolery...

Can I afford to stick around MB's to give Back what she REALLY needs if it means I will be chastised by her defenders, and bashed by Back herself, and THEN further chastised by the same folks who are silent about Back bashing me? Can I handle that immense frustration and cruelty if it means there is some slight chance of reaching Back? Nope. Does that mean I am a wimp? Nope - just a mere mortal who has a duty to herself and her daughters to put my own air mask on first.




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I agree MM.

First of all, we have NO PROOF that she is the other woman.

Secondly, this is focusing on a NEGATIVE ASPECT of this forum for SOME POSTERS. This is CERTAINLY not the GENERAL CASE OF THIS FORUM. More support is not given for posters like her. I WAS GIVEN AN OVERWHELMING AMOUNT OF SUPPORT ON THIS FORUM and CONTINUE TO GIVE IN RETURN FOR ALL THAT I HAVE RECEIVED. To me what you are saying is the not GENERALLY TRUE of this FORUM and that is why I chose to respond to you.



I can't see where this is APPARENT.



I reached out to YOU and told you how I relate so much to your ongoing pain. I can understand your pain and also feel compassion for someone whom I feel is mentally ill. It is NOT either/or for ME.



I MOST DEFINITELY DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT THIS.

You speak of understanding that you are only mortal.

The same is true of MBers. IT WAS AND STILL IS A LIFESAVER FOR ME..but MBers and the MBers FORUM IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE PERFECT.

GOD'S ANGELS are present HERE. GOD is present HERE. I KNOW THIS FOR SURE.

But also just like anywhere else in this world, there are EVIL FORCES present.

THIS IS NO PERFECT PLACE and no one should have the expectation for it to be perfect.

We are all here doing the very best we can with EMOTIONAL DEVASTATION.

Ditto what Mimi posted. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

For those who are highly agitated when others post to an Xws or even a WS:

When someone comes here and identifies themselves as a Xws or even WS, we can be challenged to help them change their status for the better IF they (Xws or WS) are willing to work with the principals and concepts here.

Our support is generally to point out the path and plans that have been helpful in helping people change, then it is up to that person to apply those positive changes in their lives. We can only show the way.

If someone doesn't want that help, then our time may feel wasted but often it isn't. Why? Because others reading may have benefited. You guys don't realize how many lives our posts are touching. For that one reason alone, I try to help where and when my conscience lets me.

Btw, I have strong religious convictions of which many here do not agree. Ok, but I don't shove it down your throats because I respect you have your respective POVs on religion and God. I may share a point or 2 every so often but that's about it. I usually state it is my POV.

Set that aside, I have been willing to help all regardless of creed as long as they are willing to let us help.

See it is about getting one's attitude to a place where help can be accepted. Even BS' have a hard time accepting help.

If for some reason I feel my conscience would not allow me to give proper support, then I choose not to post to those people. Do you know what kind of posters those are? No you don't and you probably never will. You don't need to know for me because that's my personal choice. On the other hand, I don't stop others from posting to that person, nor do I run that poster off. Unless that poster has been blatant in breaking the TOS guidelines....then I report that one to the mods. So really there's no reason to be offending in that manner.

That's my input on this matter.

L.

Meremortal, I know exactly how you feel and understand your points. I felt the same way too about this situation and was also called an "abuser" for addressing back [with her own remarks!] for abusing members here. You will be much better off if you just consider the source and let it roll off your back.

The problem is that we have a small handful who come TO this forum who are either very emotionally immature and/or have a tendency towards misplaced compassion or are just plain mean ****** who like to attack regular board members because of their own agenda.[the "nice word" crowd has the long knives out for several on this board and can be vicious] The key, for me, is to consider the source. I don't really care if some emotionally retarded crapwit from another forum believes I am an "abuser." That is her problem entirely.

More importantly, these people do not run this board or speak for MB, anymore than you and I do. But if the ppl like you and I leave, the [misplaced] "compassion" sharks will move in and we will end up with a dysfunctional board of Orwellian speech facists. [if you want to see what I mean go over to SINK or Surviving Infidelity]

Marriage Builders IS the place you thought it was as long as folks like you and I stay around here and speak truth to emotional retards.

MM, unlike others here, I am very sorry that you were hurt here at the expense of an abuser. But please don't let the misguided behavior of others run you off.

Guess the simple principle is to: Post where you can help and don't post where you can't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.