I told someone else who was having trouble talking that the solution, IMO, IS talking. Meaning, fill up the silence in the house. Start talking about normal stuff, to grease the wheels again so that it starts feeling normal to talk again. After it starts feeling safe to talk about the day to day stuff, the 'real' stuff will start working its way in.

I saw the neatest thing at the grocery store today...
Did you hear that that old band we went to see in concert got back together? Man, they must be 50!
There was a stray dog on the corner of X and Y this morning. I felt so bad for it, but it didn't have a collar...
I heard that ABC dropped out of the Republican presidential race today. That really surprised me, I thought he'd go all the way...

Harmless stuff that has nothing to do with the two of you, but can also provide a little insight to who you are, what you believe in, etc., without getting mushy and all relationshippy. I promise you it works.

btw, I'm glad things are getting better.

I'm glad to hear things are going so well!

I' don't have time for a long post right now, but I read that you are wanting some relationship talk. Please hold off on the relationship talk right now... please! Do what cat said, lay some foundation of some just regular interactions first.

I have more thoughts but no time right now. I'll explain more about why no relationship talk later, then you can decide for yourself.

Cat/jayne... I will try. It is very difficult. Not to do, but to care to do any longer. 18 months for superficial talk trying to avoid anything substantial has been where we have lived. Probably 5 or 6 actual interactive discussions about our relationship which turned out to be very little input on her account.

She just called me, wanting me to watch the girls so she could go out with her mom. She will do everything she can to be able to have lunch with one of her brothers at least once a week. She 'said' she wanted to come to my office to have lunch with me today. Wanted to bring sushi. Asked me if I would order it. I said that would be great! Told her I would order it for her, since she was unsure exactly what to get. This morning she decides that she wanted to just wrap Christmas packages and maybe do it some other time. But then she calls for me to watch the girls so she can go out with her mother.

You see... these are the ACTIONS that I see as I 'hear' the love talk.

Yea... the last 2 hours haven't been kind to my demeanor.

Hang in there... maybe she realized after thinking about things that she had too much to do for Christmas.... maybe she's going out shopping for something for you... don't assume the worst.

I'm sorry it turned out that way, but I don't understand why you didn't say something like "But we aren't having sushi for lunch because you said you wanted to stay home. I don't understand why you're going out now." If she's going to put your events on the back burner, at least make her own her actions and put them out there on the counter in front of both of you.

I know you're treading carefully, but there is a point at which you have to say, ok, this is how much I can take, this is where I have to say I think you need to hear my feelings because you're not honoring them. And if that one comment about holding her accountable is enough to make her run...well, maybe you have to consider that she's just there because it's convenient.

I'm not trying to be mean. I just hate to see you hurting, and getting so little in return. I've seen people stay in situations they shouldn't have, just because they're too depressed to make a change, or because they're not liking themselves enough to think they deserve better.

Only you know if she really loves you, or can, but you also have to ask yourself if this is all you get, if you should accept it? I just don't see a lot of you saying 'this is what's fair' in your situation.

Cat... I have said it... over and over again. This is what causes her to shut down. I will discuss my feeling about the incongruencies in her actions. She will say something like "I just always disappoint you." and walk away.

yea... I have said it all before. People have questioned my choice about ultimatums and essentially it appears they (other posters) have felt that perhaps I have not been enthusiastic, praising, (too praising), thoughtful, generous, etc. enough. The fact is, the first year was a relatively well played Plan A. The last 6 months has been a pseudo-self preservation plan B. This is not the beginning of my attempts... it is the end.

I came here because it is difficult to see such incongruency and believe it to be the truth. I posted so much, because I hoped that someone would see something which I have not. I am thankful for the replies, be they positive, negative, or neutral. Some have allowed for introspection. Most have already been implemented, so when I have a quick reply/answer... it isn't because I don't want to try it... it is because I have tried it over and over again already.

I realize I won't understand. I realize once again after this morning and afternoon, that it is just the way it is. I have stayed strong on my plans, even though I wanted any reason to deviate from them.

Edit: You know the kicker... I am so ticked off... I don't even want to be around her. It is just more of the same, and this is my reaction. I am going to go shopping for my boys tonight. I told her I wouldn't watch the girls because I needed to get some things for my boys. (Which is the truth and my intention after she decided she wanted to wrap presents.) She sounded 'perturbed', said she would just take them with her then. That is fine. The issue is, I know that how I feel right now will lead me to avoid contact with her, and actually, I am not sure that is a bad thing any longer. Certainly, it doesn't fix any situation, except protect me to some degree. I know for an absolute FACT that she will not approach me to see why I would be avoiding her. She will just shut down as well. I just don't care any longer. My boys will be with me tomorrow and I can direct my attention to them. (They are with me halftime and I have them over Christmas.)

I have just gotten to the point where I just don't care. My hesitancy in embracing the 'love' was because of just this sort of thing. I don't even feel the need to address it with her, because it is just more of the same. She has heard my requests, and in 3-4 weeks I will approach her one last time to find her choice. Unless something changes in that time, I already know the choice.

{{{{INT}}}} I wish I could do something for you. Please know, though, that even if she is not a fit for you, for whatever reason, that from what I can see you are a very valuable addition to this earth. Nice person. Good father. Giver. Sacrificer. Someone who's making a difference in this world. All kinds of ways to say that you matter and make a difference. Enjoy your sons, and help them have a happy Christmas, you'll get more out of it if you concentrate on them.

And btw, I personally am glad that you said no. That is enforcing a boundary, a very deserved one, and she needed to suffer that consequence. And you needed to provide it. Regardless of whether she 'punishes' you by withdrawing. That is her choice to miss out on a great guy.

INT, I am so frustrated with myself that I'm not expressing myself in a way that is getting through. That is a DJ that she doesn't find you as important as your mom because she felt comfortable to talk to you when she needed to change plans, but not her mom.

You are very special to her. She's present with you for life. YOU are the one who doesn't want HER, yet you are projecting that onto her, as if it were her truth, and stabbing yourself with it.

I think that you could experience your marriage so much differently. YOU are the one building up the resentment. With one foot out the door. You are the danger to your marriage.

Understandable, but isn't that why you're here, to look at things with fresh eyes?

Whether she meets you for lunch or not determines whether you allow yourself to be happy today. I encourage you to look at KLD's thread, and see how a woman in your wife's position feels. How every misstep, even getting nervous about not having the presents wrapped, is a huge withdrawal, siphonong off deposits.

INT, I have been in a very similar situation to you. Ignoring my H's deposits. My H is an alcoholic, and I would take it as he prefered his beer over me. Prefers watching the same movie for the 100th time over spending time with me.

I found that I was the one sending myself these messages. I was neglecting my self-care. Sending myself the message that I wasn't important. What can you do for yourself today? Next time, what about going for sushi yourself? Or with a friend? Like cat said, you are special.

Ears... she didn't HAVE plans with her mom... she MADE plans with her mon after choosing not to be with me. She doesn't HAVE a set schedule with lunch with her brothers... she MAKES them almost every week.

I love you for your thought. I truly do. I am certainly the one who is a danger to our marriage. There is no doubt. I accept that responsibility because I have no wife other than a person who wears a ring I gave her.

You say I am special to her. I can tell you from experience that the only thing special about me is my earning power. And you are correct, I no longer want her, no more than I would want anyone whom I felt conned me into an action, situation, or agreement. I certainly am building up resentment. I am the one with both feet out the door.

If she were alcoholic... would you say the same thing? (PS... I wrote this before you posted the last time, but couldn't get it to go through.) If she were physically abusive... would you say the same thing? If she were a drug addict... would you say the same thing? If she were having affairs...would you say the same thing?

Where does the abuse of neglect come into play? Where does the breaking of vows by ignoring almost ALL emotional/physical needs come into play? I am not looking for a rule book, to find the loophole which will let me out scott free. Albeit this possibly sounds like that might be the case. I am just saying that I understand what you are saying.

I made a vow... I tried in every way to keep it. I could stay legally married... but is that keeping a vow? I don't really believe it is. How many times do I have to put my hand in the blender before it is OK to stop? That is how I feel. It is simple to have the self abasive process of thought. I did that during most of my first marriage, and was actually quite exceptional at my self-denial. I did not begin this marriage resentful, I developed the resentment due to our interactions... or lack there-of.

I am sure there are several differences between us ears... but I guess the one which stands out to me as my main point of anger is that I feel duped. Simply and soundly duped. I understand that there are always second thoughts about the one you marry after marriage when you see them every day. However, the person I asked to marry me, and the person who was in my marriage bed on my wedding night are not the same person. The variance is staggering in almost all aspects.

I feel that she simply held it together until she 'had me' then the true her came out.

I have no children with her. I feel immense love toward the girls however. She shows no interest in the least in the fact that my boys exist except that it is their job to do the dishes. I have NEVER developed a marriage basis... there has NEVER been a time in our marriage when we had even the semblance that we were married.

While I don't know your story exactly, and I would never minimize alcoholism, so please don't think I am. I suspect that at SOME point in your marriage... you felt married. You felt you had a partner... you developed a 'picture' of who your husband was and could be... with all the troubles and trials I am sure you have undergone, once again, I suspect that you can see that picture and at least see the person you KNEW him to be. I have no such picture. I have no such sense of marriage. I have no such feeling of back when.

Of course I am seeing things through my own filters, and it may or may not help. I'll throw it out there in case there's anything you can use.

(By the way, when I first started posting on MB, I felt like people weren't really "getting it" and until someone did, I felt I wasn't getting very useful advice. Keep posting, keep telling us more and more, and maybe someone will "get it" and have something that will help you.")

These last few posts, especially from today, boy do they remind me of another poster here, holdingontoit. In fact, I think maybe hold posted to you at the beginning of your thread.

But what I wanted to tell you earlier but didn't have time, is that in some ways I can see myself in your wife... and in some ways I can see my husband in your wife. I could be projecting, of course. But...

I've asked my H to do the questionnaires, to read the MB stuff, to "work on the relationship". He hates that stuff. Even if he agrees to do it, he doesn't ever actually get around to it. My asking him to do those things hasn't improved our M one whit. But what has helped is when I work on my side of things, the stuff I'd do if he were working on things with me... only without me trying to "fix" him. Just trying to "fix" myself.

That's why I wanted you to hold off on the relationship talk. It sounded to me like you were really wanting to force her into a deep relationship talk, and I wanted a chance to tell you: it IS possible to make the relationship better without the talking, just with the doing. For some people I think that's what it takes. I'd prefer the talking, but I'm married to someone who doesn't work that way.

A while ago someone mentioned a book about how to save a marriage without actually talking about it. Someone else (ears?) said they told their H about it, and the H loved the idea. Then that someone started describing the book to them... H said "You're missing the point! You're not supposed to talk about it!" LOL

Except for today's lunch that your W cancelled, you say she's been acting nice lately, even loving. Maybe she's trying, in her own way - just that talking about it isn't her way, maybe.

Would you be ok with trying to improve things between you two, if she doesn't want to *talk* about it much but is willing to try to *act* in better ways?

That doesn't mean you can't practice H&O, letting her know how you feel, telling her your boundaries. It just means not sitting down and having big "relationship talks."

Any "discussions" I have with H about MB stuff, is more like drive-by comments. Would you want to try something like that, cutting way back on the pressure to really sit and talk, and just have some enjoyable times together for awhile?

You all know...

It is funny... I am a wreck inside... I feel like have dynamite exploding in me several times a day, mixing up whatever is inside at any given moment.

I love her. I am frustrated by my perception of her actions. I understand that I don't know anything about what she desires, which as her husband saddens me greatly. Have I not been listening? Perhaps... although I have actively been trying to listen. I understand that my feelings are based MOST upon what I envisioned versus reality. The age old adage of life. I recognize and truly believe she wants to be married to me. I want to believe that there is a cause, occurrance, etc. which prevents her from feeling comfortable just letting go.

I want to just grab her, look into her eyes, and tell her I will never let her go, that she is safe, that I am strong and will always be here. I am a rock of a man in reality, but my heart is as fragile as the thinest crystal.

I fear that I will never again have that sense of Love. I fear that I will never again be surprised. I fear that I will never again feel important (to my wife). I fear that I will never feel sexually fulfilled. I fear that I will never be able to be safely open and honest. I fear that I will never have a confidant to relay my inner fears. I fear that I will never be able to utilize my immense ability to love. I fear that I will never have the impetus to continue to try to surprise. I fear that I will never have the feeling that my love needs me, desires me, yearns for me sexually. I fear that I will never have a friend which I can tell absolustely everything, and still get a hug at the end, no matter what is said. I fear that I will have no backing, no defender, no champion to MY cause should I be attacked. I fear I will grow old, disheartened, and even more resentful because what I desire most... seems so easially given.

I fear that if I continue without these things from my wife, they might be offered by someone else, and I will not be able to resist. This is so ABSOLUTELY NOT who I am... I would believe I would never stray. I had the opportunity countless times in my first marriage and it never crossed my mind. (Even once having a nurse in her underwear in my call room at the hospital when I walked in through the door.)

I just feel worried similar to what was foretold in the Bible... paraphrasing... "Don't put your spouse in the position to stray by ignoring him."

I don't care per se, specifically about talking about our relationship. I believe in the actions. It has just been that the actions have not been there, and despite my being H&O, my concerns and desires have seemed to be either disregarded or gone unheard. My stress upon discussion has been that if I KNOW that something has been heard, I can then understand whether or not the apparent disregard is intentional or merely uninformed. ie... I am not into "if you don't know, then I am not going to tell you" kind of stuff. But I am definitely the type of person who both needs and to some degree expects that directed conversation be heeded. When I say "I feel upset and unloved when we don't make love." and the reply is something analagous to completely ignoring me... that has an effect on me. The discussion was heard... I know that... the action was to make a choice to disregard and ignore almost with reactionary verve to the extreme where if the issue was that I felt we should make love more often, the reaction is to not do it at all.

Also, continuing with the sex theme, since truthfully, it overshadows the heart of everything at the moment. Agreeing with my statement... "would like more" or "would like you to take some initiative" or even to the point of stating and agreement 'you use the book 52 nights... one week and I will the next' then just never bringing it up and never doing it... THOSE are the things which I see and truly can not justify in any reasonable way. Every wife/husband understands that by agreeing to marry, that they 'forsake all others' and in so doing take on the responsibility of 'fulfilling those responsibilities' to the other person. I don't believe for a moment she didn't understand that nor agree to it. She simply chooses to not do it. The actions are the problem.

To make extreme effort to ensure she goes to lunch with her brothers each week. To make the effort to plan on ME watching the girls so SHE can go out with her MOTHER, all the while essentially ignoring any similar effort into doing the same with me... THAT is the action which occurs. You wouldn't HEAR her say that was the case. But just take a week, and see how often I come across her radar screen as something important... I would venture that it is a rare blip indeed.

INT2, I understand, that you came into this with differnt expectations than I had a reason to. I did have similar expectations, just no grounds for them <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Because we were unknowingly big into LBs when we were dating, too.

Anyhow, back to your situation. You share your H&O, she doesn't respond. Your H&O is for your benefit just as much as hers.

This is what I clarified about my boundaries here at MB from sharing my H&O. My opinion matters. I matter. I will not be silenced. Any relationship I am in does have room for my H&O. My spouse's reaction to my H&O is theirs to own. My marriage can survive my spouse's reaction (anger, indiffernce, etc.) It cannot withstand the resentment I build when I choose not to share my H&O.

So, what do you say when she doesn't respond? What about, "I hear you choosing not to respond. I want you to know that I am ready to listen without judgment when you are ready to respond."

What response do you want? Have you tried a thoughtful request, being very specific what response you want?

In an effort to give you a different view on your sich, I would like to give you what may be (but not necessarily) what another person (perhaps your wife) might be thinking:

To me this presents a communication problem. To me, you (and possibly your W) are communicating in a way that does not show an open mind and/or respect for different viewpoints (the reflection of "agree to disagree"). And I definitely get the feeling that you haven't tried that "Policy of Joint Agreement" enough to be smoothing out the nuances of negotiation. Why? B/c (and this is assumption and thereby has the potential to be completely inaccurate) you are committing one of a variety of "conversation enders" when you talk to your W. You might be using an angry tone; you might be using a nice tone but saying accusatory things; you might be (and by your actions here I feel strongly you do) assuming what she is thinking (as in "you(W) don't care..."); you might be making demands (instead of thoughtful requests - which allows the other person, penalty free, to decline); you might be lecturing/educating your W ("you(W) should really read these books" means in marital speak "You don't have a clue, and you won't listen to me, so read these books so you can have a third party save me from your ignorance"); etc. What your W is doing, is enforcing a boundary: you have said something that was hurtful to me, I'm going to shut down/leave the room until I(W) feel better. Just speculation on my part.


I'm sure you did as great Plan A as possible. However, it might have been a better one with some guidance. I'm just noticing some behaviors from you that, to me, are indicating areas that might have been counterproductive during your Plan A. I don't get commission, but I do endorse the Harley's in situations like yours. If it is financially feasible, I strongly urge you to tell them what you've told us and work from there. Use the next 3 weeks. Make a few appointments. If it works, great. If not, you can pat yourself on the back for lessons learned and use your newfound Harley given knowledge going forward in your current and future relationships.

Plan B isn't structured for psuedo attempts. It is to preserve YOUR feelings of love for your W by reducing your exposure to hurtful behavior, and to withdraw YOUR support for your spouse as long as they are acting inappropriately. Your feelings, you say, have diminished and it appears you are still paying the mortgage for the house your W lives in. Neither of which are compelling enough for your W to change. This is, IMHO, a key point: you must change in order to initiate change in your M.

You might never understand your W. Inuitive knowledge about a spouse will never replace frequent honest and open communication. I definitely agree that it wasn't appropriate for her to cancel lunch, but I don't understand why you are choosing to dwell on it? May I ask, when did you do something for yourself, to make YOU happy, last? B/c you just sound sad and neglected. And the best person to cater to you would be you, so why not treat yourself. Go get yourself some sushi, and tell your W when you see her how great it was and you saw a posse of Santas drive by on miniature motorcycles (or whatever) and that she missed a good time. THAT is my Plan A response to that particular issue. No guilting. No sulking. Just be that happy person you WANT to be, and suddenly, you might be that happy person she WANTS to be around.

OK, this is your boundary. Sounds fine to me, except that element of punishment that I can't put my finger on...

And she shouldn't. If you don't have the honesty to tell her up front that you were disappointed that you and she did not have lunch, you are being passive aggressive, and controlling.

Ok, not a healthy response by her either. Doesn't this tell you she is hurting too? This nearly shouts to me that she cares... That she hurts when you withdraw. That her trust is broken and she feels the need to protect herself too

Your decision, which I support. But she has worked on changes. This won't happen overnight. She's disappointed you enough that YOUR trust will not be re-established for months if not longer. Essentially, you are telling yourself to 'get over it' in three weeks. While only you can decide how much you can take, I'm not sure you are seeing, without bias, her efforts. If you can't be more lenient with yourself, I'm not sure how you can expect to be loving towards your W. And except for a very frustrated woman, no W is going to want SF with a unhappy H. Irritable simply isn't attractive.

My heart just breaks for you both. You both care but just have trouble using the tools to get to a healthy relationship. What do you think would happen if tonight, you didn't do anything with or for your W without enthusiasm? (W: H, could you make dinner? H: Sure honey, I'll cook dinner, but I need some motivation from you. I would like a big smooch. W: ? H" No smooch? Ok, but a neck massage would get me in chef mode. W: ?? H: No neck massage? How about I get the TV remote tonight? W: ?! H: No? Well honey, I'm not enthusiastic about slaving over that hot stove when I'd rather be watching the news. I've been trying to reduce the resentment poisoning our M by being enthusiastic about what we do for each other. But seeing as it is important to you, I really want to find a way to make it a win/win situation. Could you help me think of something you'd be willing to negotiate for dinner?) Be playful or even silly about it ("if you make a funny face for me I'll throw in cleaning up afterwards..."). And then you try 100 different ways to get her enthusiastic about having lunch with you another day... (no relationship talk, new shoes, you'll wash her car, you'll "wash her car", she picks the restaurant, etc). What would happen if YOU put the fun back into this relationship (and yourself), one day at a time?

What I don't hear, is a statement of boundaries or consequences. The H&O about your feelings/needs is great, but it's just the first step. You also need to say something like "and if I don't get this need met, I am afraid it will damage the love I feel for you..."

You also need to acknowledge her right to have different feelings/perceptions/needs/desires. "I understand that you may feel distant... or that this isn't as important to you... but I am having a hard time dealing with this unmet need."

And then, maybe if x doesn't happen, you will do y. This part I'm less sure of... not to be construed as a threat. It should be simply a statement of facts. Easy to do in the case of an LB: "If you continue to yell at me, I will go to a different room." More difficult, I think, in the case of an unmet EN: "If you don't give me SF x number of times / week, I will..." ??? Doesn't quite work. Probably someone else could come up with a good boundary statement for this case.

Best case scenario, this would be followed by negotiating a POJA.

Right now, in your sitch, I'm inclined toward some drive-by H&O statements, interspersed with some good times and good statements - at a 5-to-1 ratio? That's 5 fun or good things to every non-good one. And right now your W may see any request on your part (which you have a right to make!) to be a negative, so I strongly think you should have some good things interspersed.

ETA: yes, thoughtful requests, that's what I was trying to describe! Have you said your requests in the form of Thoughtful Requests, acknowledging her right to say no, but being completely H&O about what the possible consequences are?

Thanks for the reply...

I absolutely agree that our biggest difficulty is in communication. At least at this point it is communication, because we can't communicate about our relationship in any way. We can talk about everything else under the sun. But if something about us is brought up, she just won't talk at all. If anything is said, it is generally me saying "I feel X..." and waiting for her to speak. She rarely speaks about us. I believe she might be afraid. I believe she has never needed to talk about issues, because her family just seemed to ignore trouble for a couple days, then pretend like it never happened. Then I show up, and all of the sudden, there is no 'just ignore'... this guy wants to talk about and work on issues.

She doesn't seem to know what to do. We went to a MC for a while together and separate, but when I spoke about things, she felt 'ganged up' on... saying she felt like all I did was 'YELL' at her during the sessions, and why should she want to do that? I never yelled at her nor anything of the sort. The counselor said I was VERY appropriate in my statements and attempts to engage her, however, she just doesn't have the skills, it seems, to be able to hear it without everything being an attack.

Often, she will begin to say something... and it might be just the tiniest bit controversial between us, but nothing really significant, she will begin saying it like 'I think..." and stop then say "Nope.. never mind... not my place." Now... you would think this is just saving herself from a fight, or derision or other things coming back from me, however, that is not the case in reality. It is what SHE thinks, and I accept that, but the issue is that she has an entire conversation in her head in those 2 seconds (it appears to me) in which I have ignored her or told her 'that is stupid' or something which she believes was a bad outcome of her thought. And she just won't say it. But then... and here is the kicker, she acts like I said all those bad things anyway. She will become dismissive, aloof, and condescending like "Not my problem then..." sort of thing.

My part will have been 2 seconds of listening to her begin a sentence with NO outward anything. I don't scowl, raise an eyebrow, turn away, turn towards, etc. It can be that I am simply putting on my coat. But somehow, she appears to believe that I shot down her thought in an abrasive manner out of hand. I don't do that... I have NEVER done that... if I disagree with her, I will explain... if I hesitate, even thinking about what she has said, again... she acts as though I have just blasted her thought in the most dismissive way. When I DO get the chance to say something back and if it IS something other than what she had just said, then I am openly castigated via condescending remarks to all around. I don't have the option to disagree or to an opinion in my home. If I have either, I am viewed as LORD OF THE HOUSE, trapsing around in my scarlet robe and crown passing judgement and laws out on a whim. At least that is how I take her reactions.

She moved in with me when we married. So I understand she doesn't feel equal in the house. I have tried to reassure her that it is OUR house, but she uses it against me all the time, in a passive aggressive and derisive manner. " I don't care... it isn't MY house.""You do what you want... its YOUR house." She is constantly putting down the house because we have need for another room.

We have 6 of us with only 4 bedrooms and this is a great house. My boys age 14 and 10 each have a room, they had them before she moved in. The girls 8 and 5 share a room. My oldest boy HAD the biggest room before they moved in. They moved in, needed more space since there were two of them, and he traded rooms with them. She is still upset because they have to share a room, constant backhand remarks about the fact. Well... the house is a great house in a great neighborhood, with the best schools in the state, with great friends all around. I don't have the cash to just move, and it would mean some significant changes in everyone involved anyway. But that is not the issue... we don't have a real option at the moment.

She is constantly putting down the town we live in as well. And it is a reverse condescension type thing. We live in an upper class area of the "best" suburb. She came from a small town. It is reverse snobbery IMO. And it hurts, because this is a great place, and all I hear is complaints about "Lots of soccer mom traffic... or Not one of the women who enjoy running together... or too much participation in school by parents thereby limiting availability to go on school outings... etc." She complains about the very things most people look for when they choose to move to a neighborhood. It is as if she is afraid someone will find out she 'doesn't belong' so she wants to ensure she lets people know she doesn't like it anyway, before they have a chance to tell her she shouldn't be there. It is complete defense.

Our communication difficulties actually, now after having written this and thinking about it, seems to revolve around her incredible defensiveness. She appears to interpret any disagreement as an attack, no matter how small. She appears to interpret any hesitation in action or speech as disagreement thereby an attack. The counselor said she even seemed to view him as 'ganging up' on her, when she went to him alone. I can't say anything, because unless it is bouncing off the wall fun and happy, it is an attack or dissapproval. Hence, I have learned that unfortunately, it is easier to withdraw than try...

Yea... "How's that workin' for ya?"

I love her... but man... I can't talk to her.

Now.. what are the great things about my wife? Gonna try this after every post... to keep the good thoughts going as well.

She is incredibly intelligent. She has drive to continue her education with lofty goals. She is a great cook. She is incredibly funny. She loves her girls. She is truly... one of the most beautiful women I have ever known... she is EXACTLY what I want physically in a woman in EVERY aspect. She looks GREAT in cowboy boots.

Just a few... seed I guess...

I have tried no typical MB principles such as POJA or EN/LB questionaires etc. She will have nothing to do with anything concerning well... anything. She says she will read, but never picks up the books.

I try to do them unilaterally... but as you know it is difficult. I was pretty one sidedly good for quite some time during our first year of marriage. It is hard to be a newly wed, and already be trying to 'get your wife back'.