Thanks a million for ur good ideas back. i'll try to do as u say but what is his giver never comes out?, what if when it comes out im too worn out, too tired or too depresed to enjoy it since i've been denying my own feelings?.
he is saying to himself now: cant believe this was even a good idea, my W is been nicer to me now that i have been nasty to her.
Went 4 walk to Dublin with my kids this eve, past Stephen's Green, the park where he met this girl and i felt sick thinking where did they sit down, where did they buy their lunch?, was he feeling happy?, hopeful?, scared to meet her?,was he feeling excited?,
I past the park where we as a family spent so many hours seen our kids run around and start crying...
He rang to mobile. Was in car with kids, he didnt say much, i told him what he did and that i passed park and thoutht about him...(didnt say more since kids where in car with me), he said nothing, im not sure if he knew what i meant, he is not a great mindreader either.
We hang up, i sent him a text then: i love u.
never replied back. Got home and rang him, i somehow need lots of reassurance from him this days and im not getting it, told him kids wanted to say g.nite, he didnt say much to me so i asked if he got text, he said: oh yeah, thanks vm i love u too., but he didnt mean that, he said it with no feeling.
Why should he be so threaten of my hurt feelings. He might never be a giver again, he has hardly ever been a giver. he works yes, he thinks that he should be so admired for that and that i dont admire him enough. Well he is soo greedy, he has kept me on budgets for 9 yrs, counting every penny...

Im been really nice to him but there is no excuse for him to have chatted to all these women on the net. I need complete honesty from him, im not sure how many times he met a couple of them, im almost sure there was no PA, was just EA, and most of it via internet.
he says i wont forgive him ever. but tha's so easy to say, he doesnt have to commit to change then, he is only suiting himself, this is so tipical of him. He has this philosophy: Dont take cos then you'll have to give.
He says he met these women cos he needed companionship, warmth,...if he doesnt understand how much this has hurt me he'll do it again when things get though. And they'll get though if he is not very sorry and doesnt want to understand my feelings. I do need JUST COMPENSATION. he has to promise not to do this stupid thing again, to tell me what he thinks and how he feels, be honest and not have his mobile blocked, otherwise we are gone, cant take this games any more

Hi FH, will tell u one thing. My H has lost hope in our M for his believe that he is unable to make me happy. He absolutely hates to see me mad at him or upset at him, i might not show it but he knows me so well and doesnt understand why was i hurt when he meant no harm at all, then he gives up and withdraws, so i do have to watch at the moment and cant show all my hurt feelings for what he's done

Hi Aar...

You're feelings are very important. It's a time to "take care of you"... imo. That's part of an effective "Plan A"... in my book: taking care of you!

In my opinion, it's a time to treat yourself with extra "TLC"... and to gather around you supporters, those who love you, those who have a kind word of encouragement and are "with you"... in heart and in action... in word and in deed.

Taking care of you is one of the founding "legs", imo, of an effective "Plan A".

For whatever it's worth, I think about how the revolutionaries "won" the "revolutionary war" against the "British army"... against whom they were outnumbered, out-gunned, and out-ammoed.

There's a saying that describes their strategy (in part)... "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day."

I'll explain to you my POV in a very trying situation in which - to effectively "Plan A"... you need to be "on top" to interactively or "from a distance"... (since he's in Spain I think you say)... effectively "Plan A". (peanut gallery more than welcome to offer improvements... but let's focus on the poster here and be here for her...) (and, hey, if any of you who reads this really can't stand me and feel the need to express it... why not IM me?.. Let's protect Aar from any negativity, OK? And just be nice and kind and civil on her thread, OK?)

Anyway, I believe you will find times when you are stronger than others. I would say that when you are down and when you are weak... maybe that's a signal that you need to put more deposits into yourself... by TLC'ing you... in your "Plan A".

Can you make a "TLC List" as part of your "Plan A" that is taking care of you? And when you notice that you are getting down... activate some "TLC items"????

Just a thought. We need you to be built up as strong as you can be built up. You need TLC. (A person just does! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

Let's not "worry about never". How bout "one day at a time". I say that we focus on the Plan A... the goals...and the action steps... and taking care of you.

Now, I'm not expert, myself, on an effective "Plan A" as far as the action steps to take. I would appreciate input and insights from others.

Also, Aar, there was a veritable genius on this board I saw who gave posters advice about "exposure".

You know what? I don't know enough about that to advise you.

But, from everything I see... it's part of an effective strong strategy.

Can you write down a "TLC List" of things that "take care of you" that you can actively do to "build up your strength".

We must care for your emotional wellbeing... we must care for your strength!!!

And, well, my first thought is - with the H in Spain... well, I think there should be a written Plan A of how to contact him, what to say, how to say it.. and I sincerely am a person who believes in writing "scripts" that you practise before you call him and talk to him... prepared for what he may say.

Now, we already know about this "forgiveness" thing. Then, let's get some input from others on an effective strategy to turn that around... what points you want to make... how you want to "counter" his reasoning... and get him to think what you want him to think.

(I'm calling on the crowd here. I'm wanting to support Aar in "walking out" an effective "Plan A"... but need some vets to step in with some really good "counter-intelligence" for her.)

I'm strongly stating that a "TLC action plan"... imo... would be wise to be part of your "Plan A".

I would be strategically making choices/plans/action steps of what to say, what to do,... when... to gain your goal.

Never mind never. One day at a time.

Focussing on a good plan is where we need to have our focus.

We can't look to a WS to gain "strength". We can't give our strategy into the hands of hte "enemy"... (he's a WS right now).

Our strategy... our moves... get the result from the WS we want. We don't involve him in our decision making... and we don't give the WS a "vote"... or "leverage"...

cause we're moving to get from him what we want to bring the giver out for you.

He's not "in on" this "Plan"... as far as having any power as a WS... OVER the plan. We're giving him... no power.

We're taking the power. And we're focussing on your strength... against him (he's a WS... the WS taker... won't help us... doesn't care... and we can't look to him for "help"... in "making this work"... nope, we're gonna "kill him with kindness... or an effective "Plan A")

The WS is the one we're going to work the Plan on.

(That's the way I look at it.)

(Oh! God help me! I always wanted the WS to... "be my friend"... DUH!!! He wasn't. Let's kill the taker... with kindness... and see what comes out of the shadows... and take authority by walking out a plan YOU create and devise... and implement. Feel the POWER!!! We're not giving the WS taker any power... we're taking the power and putting it into you through the Plan.)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just what I'm thinking. Vets more than welcome... she's asking for help....

Be back later....

Aar...

I can relate completely. It was due to my ex's very tender feelings for me... and my hurt... that my sitch... swirled down the drain... in a "negative feedback" emotional dynamic that left my ex absolutely crushed... and me too.

The H is not the "enemy". The "WS"... taker side... is.

I loved my ex. My ex loved me. And I gotta believe there's a reason why... I can "coach you" through this... at least contributing encouragement to help "pull you out" of those negative cycle "loops".

He desperately needs your love. What you are describing to me... is exactly what occurred with my ex.

I "pushed him away"... because I did not focus on a Plan A... I got "swallowed up" by hurt feelings.

This is why this matter is so crucial.

We need to help you be strong... with a Plan... with encouragement... with everything we can help you with in a positive manner to "BREAK" the "negative feedback loop".

Please, aar, identify stating your "hurt feelings" to him at this time as "negative"... recognizing it's impact and influence on him. I certainly am not trying to show lack of care for your feelings... but I so sincerely desire to see you "win"... where I have to have a "come back"... to win.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I will.

But back to you. Win now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'll post a little thing here.. I notice "no help" from vets yet. I wanted to give others an opening... but I'll continue then in more specifics relative the "taking care of you"... "TLC"... side of things.

I think it is necessary to "shore up" your strength. I want you to practise a script of what to say when you call your H with the specific goal of depositing love units, as DH (Dr. Harley) calls them. You don't need to "fix the problem" to "fix the problem" right now. Let the problem go for now. Go for depositing love units while he is in Spain... and try to "build up" your love bank account for when he returns for Christmas.

For example, I want you to have a script prepared and ready that is a script designed to achieve the goal of love bank unit deposits. (Deposits in the love bank, we're banking on, will "fix the problem"... without focussing on the problem... right now.)

So, I want you to have the script prepared and ready for your positive action step. Then, I want you to do something you very much enjoy - as an idea (let me know what you think)... and participate in that activity... and then give yourself a pre-determined space of time to turn your focus onto the call action step... prior to calling the H.

This way, your "mood" will be buoyed by the pleasant activity (and social group that is supportive if possible)... and you will be fully prepared with a script that is prepared when you call the H.

Suggestion: (This must be sincere on your part... and you must have the "mood" in place... to successfully deposit the love units. Remember, the goal is not to "fix the problem". The problem will take care of itself, we are banking,... and you need to "pull out" of the "problem immersion" emotional "place". I think you know what I mean. I think you've seen the same "impact" on the H I saw occur in mine.)

Call him and tell him that you love him and that there are so many wonderful things about him that caused you to fall in love with him and choose to spend the rest of your life with him... and marry him... that you know that you can and will forgive him. In fact, you believe that your relationship with him can return to the love you both once experienced when you first fell in love. Tell him he is still the man you chose to love... and you know all the wonderful things you believed about him when you made that decision are still true. You want to have the opportunity to restore the love.

You've been reading and studying and you know now that there are more effective ways to maintain that love and care for one another. You want to dedicate yourself to restoring the love between you.

Then you can tell him about Marriage Builders.

An idea. To fill the love bank... and I think speaking personally is the best venue. Your mood must be positive.

You have to think through his "objections". What you expect he may say to object.

Then you must be prepared to answer his "objections" with your positive assertions... and continue with the script.

Do not stay on the phone too long. Do not allow the mood to change. Stay in a positive mood... and get off the phone.

The goal is not to "solve everything" in one call.

The goal is to make love bank deposits.

Please let me know what you think. You must "write out" your scripts and practise them... preparing for "objections"... and having a script to "answer the objectoin" and go back to the main points you want to make.

Hang up on a positive note... and do not be dragged down or into anything negative.

I'd say a 10-15 minute call max.

Let me know....

I have something else to touch also.

Stay strong!!

Be positive!!!

You can win!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks a million again back for ur time/
All u say makes perfectly sense to me. Iknow ur method will win his love back. But is this all i want?. i'll be full of resentment by the time this happens/
Because i dont believe that the problem will take care of itself.
Not sure if i told u i dont believe his is with anybody at present. i know he has been looking for emotional support from other women, here in Ireland and back in Spain. he says he knows is wrong but did it for a reason wich is that i was always unhappy with him and with a bad face when he came home after work, always finding faults with him.
Now back, he has NOT been a great H, a councellor asked me once to list good things about him and i honestly couldnt list ONE. He has been dishonest, he described himself (reading His Needs, her needs with me) as a born lier and asked me how could he improve that.
He has been bying all these property keeping me and kids deprived of so much, not just money but time with him. he was always on computer or phone finding property, i was never listened to what i thought, he has this idea: he provides he has to distribute where the money goes. if i need more money he says i can go out and earn it.
i have had a part time job for a yr and a half wich money i used to pay for holidays but he always tried to make me guilty for not putting it towards groceries, but back if i told u how much he makes u wouldnt believe what im saying/
i was always for going out, knew needed time together, but he said babysitter was a robb and we didnt enjoy it anyway...
i see no vets are helping here. Back would u know of vets who are really well trained in helping people, ur great but i need to get as much imput from different people as possible.
I dont think ur a marriage councellor are u?, u sound like a person who helps people with goals in their work?/
ur advise is very valuable though, iagree the phone calls should be short so i can keep the positive tone in them.
Honestly back we have hardly ever been happy, he is a very selfish man and thinks about himself constantly, he says that if he doesnt have his hobbies he wont be able to work cos he suffers from depression...he is a very difficult and weak man. now im weak too and need much emotional support. sometimes i think we've never been suited, he needs so much acceptance from me and i need so much that he says CANT provide.

Back, what is TLC, i imagine is something like treating myself or taking care of myself?.
Back he is SO bad for my self image. He says he doesnt notice to do things like when we're in social situations never acknolodges im there, if im saying an opinion he talks and interrumps like if i wasnt saying a thing a all, he has absolutely no respect for me. This happens not only when his taker is out but always!. He just called this morning to say g.morning, was talking for 5 secs with him when he said that the lad is there working with him just arrived and we'd talk later.I said: r u ok?,
Can he not talk at all when John, his friend is there?. Is it really John who was with him?, why is he always so unnatural and WEIRD?>

i do different post cos when i write long ones and post them, doesnt let me and after all my effort they dissappear!.
Anyway here im again.\
My H falls in love with me when i show im happy with him. this is a FACT.
But Back, this is so false!!!, i HAVE been doing this for years and then resentment comes back cos he DOESNT make me happy. he will NEVER want to read into this MB site. I bought all these books and then when i have his giver back tried and approach him and read books with him, this usually last for 2 or 3 days, we might read for half our, then he says M shouldnt be this struggle, that everything is so wrong. i keep positive but he gives up and continue not fulfilling my needs.
And what after this?, i cant continue with a |Plan A all my life!

Hmmmmmm..... we've invited vets... and they have not arrived.

OK, what we need to happen is to go into Plan A... then into recovery.

He sounds like he is very dependent upon you to "fill his love bank"... and needs to learn the importance of turning around to fill yours.

The marriage must change and improve for you to truly remain happy and sincere in your happiness.

It sounds to me like you are finding him to be narcissistic.

There is an article on the site about "freeloaders", "renters", and "buyers"... in a relationship. This man appears to be a "freeloader".

So, the effective plan for you must include converting your H to a "buyer" rather than a "freeloader" (someone who just wants you to be there for them - but isn't "strong enough" himself to fill your love bank by fulfilling your needs.)

I think assertiveness training might help you in that.

And I would read up on the site about "how to convert" the H into a "buyer".

What I "hear" about him is that things must be broken down into small, manageable steps for him in that regard.

I, personally, think you must be assertive.

For a trained counsellor, the Harleys on here can be contacted to provide professional training and counselling. I am not a professional or trained counsellor and have no certification to that effect.

I would say that they are the most qualified to aid you in developing an effective Plan to restore love in your marriage... not just for the H... but for you.

I have heard that the cost is $185 per hour.

My best "advice" is to contact the best professionals - the Harleys - to develop a Plan that is a Plan A, a recovery plan, and a plan to "convert" the H into a "buyer".

In my opinion, we cannot "ask" from a "tiger" to behave like a "lamb".

However, step by step by step we can assertively train the "tiger" to change.

In my opinion, we need to "throw out" asking the "tiger" to behave differently... on the basis of... the "tiger" should want to behave differently.

We must show the H that making changes is in his best interest and in the interest of his happiness.

Since motivation is so low on his part... we cannot expect that motivation on his part is higher. We must give him small assignments that he can implement easily... that are on the path to the change you need.

These must be negotiated, assertively managed, so that he implements the changes you want and need to be happy in the marriage.

I am going to say that calling on the Harleys here, who are trained counsellors, to develop your plans and action steps is your besr path to success and happiness for yourself and for a marriage that gains the structure that will fulfill both your needs.

I will be happy to encourage you in the plan you create and devise with them... and to support you... and cheer you as I am able... and to continue to reinfoce to you your value, your worth, and your happiness.

I still assert that a "TLC List" (tender loving care) is in your best interest.

Facts are facts. Your H is not in a place to "fill your love bank". Therefore, in the interest of your best interest in being happy and fulfilled... we must rely on a relationship less. We must rely on outside activities like hobbies you enjoy, career, family, etc. more to "build up your strength". This will place you in the best "power position" to assertively manage the relationship and your H for improvement that you can initiate and manage to the best of your ability (and your H's change) to improve the marriage.

Also, the Harleys being professional counsellors can talk with you about any medication for depression (it's normal in this situation to experience medical need for depression meds) that may be appropriate.

Also, since the vets are not coming onto this thread... can you change the title of it?

And ask on the title for vets to come onto the thread and give advice?

I would talk more about the matter... but I think referring you to the Harleys is in your absolute best interest.

Your H makes a lot of money. He can afford to have you pay for the Harleys. If you have access to the bank accounts, use it.

I'll be back later....

and remember this....

You are not staying strong, being positive, and seeking to win... for the H alone.

You are doing it for you.

You will be all the better for it and you will become happier irrespective of what he does.

Please create a TLC List of things that you enjoy and would build up your life personally through hobbies, employment, family, education, etc., etc.... and create action steps... and implement it. (You do not need your H's cooperation to build up yourself nad your life outside the relationship with him.)

Talk to you later.

THANKS BACK, DO U KNOW WHERE TO THE HARLEYS LIVE, WHAT STATE?. I DOUBT I CAN GO ALL THE WAY FROM IRELAND SINCE JUST ONE VISIT AND ONLY ME GOING MIGHT NOT BE VERY FRUCTUOS. HE MAKES GOOD MONEY BUT AS I SAID HE MANAGES IT, I HAVE NO ACCESS TO IT, AND HE HAS LOTS OF PROPERTY (I SHOULD SAY WE HAVE, BUT WONT SINCE ALMOST ALL HOUSES ARE ON HIS ONLY NAME...)AND WE HAVE ABOUT 17 MORTGAGES INCLUDING THE FAMILY HOME

Aranchae....so that you know, Back is a fraud. If you are truly in need, please seek out help from others here. The Harley's do phone counseling.

Aranchae:

Use the search function to read back's other posts.
ALSO, search on laura_lee and read those posts too.

Then use your own judgement on whether or not you'd allow Back to play Plan A coach for you...

P.S. be VERY careful not to post anything the slightest bit critical of Back or you will be attacked by her and others who will rush to her defense for you being 'abusive' of her.

As to Back's advice that the WS must be shielded from any knowledge that you are hurt by his betrayal: That's great advice for allowing the WS to believe that his cake-eating can become permanent. While you do want things to be pleasant during Plan A, you also most definitely do NOT want to in any way reinforce the WS's hopes that they can pretend that what they did was OK or not hurtful. It is not advised during Plan A to pretend you are not hurt.

I must stress: FIRST check out Back's story and agenda for yourself before trusting her expertise or effectiveness in luring 'her WXH' (ahem) back with Plan A methods...

Hey guys, idont think is nice to say that someone (the only one!)who is trying to help me here is a fraud. She is giving up her time to read my post, and i dont believe she is trying to hurt me. Why dont YOU who is critisising her give me your ideas and help. I really need this.
She might not be right in all she says but she is right in some things, i'll use my own head and follow only the advises i know are good

how could i find laura_lee's posts?, went into Search our site and couldn't find anything

Hi Aranchaa.

If you change your message title to state you want advice from other BS's you will get more responses.

I will try to explain more about the response I already gave you:

"As to Back's advice that the WS must be shielded from any knowledge that you are hurt by his betrayal: That's great advice for allowing the WS to believe that his cake-eating can become permanent. While you do want things to be pleasant during Plan A, you also most definitely do NOT want to in any way reinforce the WS's hopes that they can pretend that what they did was OK or not hurtful. It is not advised during Plan A to pretend you are not hurt."

I AM a BS myself. My WXH is a serial adulterer so that gave me lots of experience being a BW trying various ways of responding to his betrayal. Like most WS's my WH wanted me to just pretend the betrayal wasn't so bad and to suffer in silence. Unfortunately I tried my best to do just that. But that meant he never had to really apologize or change... so he didn't.

I was afraid to let on about how deeply hurt I was. I was afraid it would make me look bad in comparison to the OW I felt I had to compete with. I was well aware that the OW typically does her best to be all fun and games in her agenda to seduce the married man away from his wife! So I thought I had to always act cheerful and never bring up what he'd done.

Unfortunately that meant my WXH never realized how much he had hurt me, so he didn't think it was a big deal to do it again and again. It also meant he presumed recovery didn't require him to do anything - because he didn't see that he had done anything all that bad. AND it meant the he did NOT appreciate anything I did either - because he didn't know I was suffering so severely and granting much grace in even staying with him let alone doing my best to be a happy fun wife for him.

There is also the danger that you will fuel your WH's desire to cake eat forever. That's one reason why it's not advised to be a doormat during Plan A and/or to stay in Plan A too long. Because all that will do is give your WS an even greater sense of entitlement and getting used to having both his wife and the OW competing with each other to make everything enjoyable for him. Then it will be even less likely that he will ever give up the cake eating or be willing to face the hurt he caused you and help you recover from it.

While I do understand that Plan A is about meeting the WS's emotional needs and being careful not to Love-Bust, it's not an LB (Love Buster) to tell them how hurt you are feeling (as long as you don't do so in an angry or violent manner of course). Even if the WS gets angry about you revealing your hurt, the WS's anger alone does not make it a Love Buster. Telling him how much he hurt you is not a DJ (Disresepctful Judgement) unless you call him names while doing so, for example.

Plan A is not about being a doormat.

Also, Plan A is most definitely NOT about conning or seducing with temporary fakeness just until you 'win' him from the competition (the common OW tactic BTW)! the changes you make during Plan A, the improvements you make, are supposed to be a true example of how you intend to treat your spouse for the rest of your marriage. So unless you planned on hiding your pain from your WS forever, it's not good advice to hide it during Plan A either.

Aranchaa:

You have gotten several responses here from other posters here besides Back.

You will get even more if you change the threads title so that others won't think you are only interested in talking to two specific posters.

ForeverHers posted this to you:

"A woman's feelings toward a man do NOT threaten a man."

thanks a million for ur time and advise Meremortal. It does make sense to me. I am going to post another thread and change the title so more people might help, it would be great if u could keep on giving ur ideas and help.thanks again

MaggieMagster posted this to you Aranchaa:

"He says I'll never forgive him 4 what he is done and that's it." - Dare him to trust you. If you think you can forgive him, than assure him that you can and you will. Much strength to you!

Tyk responded:

"Aranchaa, hows it going? I don't know if I can help you but I will try."

(probably waiting for you to give more info or to ask some specific questions)

MelodyLane posted:

"

Quote:
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He says i'll never forgive him 4 what he is done and that's it. This sounds to me like that he isnt really sorry for what he's done and doesnt realise how much he has hurt me.



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Aranchaa, let him know that you will give him an opportunity to EARN your trust, but that trust must be EARNED. Regaining trust is HIS JOB, not yours. Nor is he ENTITLED to your trust after he has broken it. Trust is not an entitlement and you would be crazy to trust an untrustworthy person. He must EARN that trust by behaving in TRUSTWORTHY manners.

So let him know that you are WILLING to allow him to EARN your trust and show him various ways he can do this, ie: giving you all his passwords, complete transparency.


Quote:
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He says i'll never forgive him 4 what he is done and that's it.


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Perhaps not. But it is possible if he strives to JUSTLY COMPENSATE you. But he must EARN forgiveness. What is he willing to do to EARN IT? Will he take steps to justly compensate you? Please read Dr Harley's article on forgiveness and just compensation: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

Also, I would second starfishs recommendation that you do phone counseling with Steve Harley. It will be worth every penny.

--------------------
misplaced compassion gives power to EVIL.....

Selective "compassion" is the sign of an agenda, rather than a compassionate person"