See now eventually she will need to come around to seeing that you had every right to put that software there...You are her husband and no one has the right to the privacy to have an affair...I guarantee she would have put that software on your computer if the situation were reversed...

She has to EARN your trust...You have every reason not to trust her right now, in fact, you would be a fool to do so...

A truly FWS will VOLUNTEER to be trustworthy...I go out of my way to make sure that Mr. W knows EVERYTHING about me...That is transparency and it is a MUST in any marriage, but especially one that has been through the trainwreck of infidelity...

Mrs. W

I thought that what has been said on your thread so far has explained it pretty well Try...As for why she may be doing it right now though? Well she is DESPERATE to try and recreate how she felt during the affair...She misses the affair drug...Each time she breaks no contact she sends herself right back to square one of withdrawal and as I told you, withdrawal is He11...

When was her last contact?

Mrs. W

If in fact she's not stumbled, It's been 10 days. I'm suspicious that she may have seen him, as she went to the mall yesterday for a few hours, and the place they used to work together is right near there.
I did NOT ask her if she stopped by. I don't want to give her ammo about me being jealous etc. She has told me that there have been times when she could have stopped in to her old work, but saw his car so she didn't.
I really WANT to believe her but am unsure. As I work long hours, she certainly has ample time everyday to see or talk to him if she wants. I think she's trying to honor it this time. But again, JUST for me. She still wants to be "friends". She blames me for blowing this out of proportion (Fogspeak?)
I agree that she should be more open. She's asked me what I want her to do to show that shes working to fix our marriage, and I've suggested that each day she doesn't see or talk to him is a good thing to me and she could mention that. She simply doesn't seem thoughtful enough that these things occur to her. I think she thinks it's silly or stupid or something.
For what it's worth, even a small gesture like that would mean a lot to me.
Another thing SHE brought up a couple of weeks ago was to get rid of the little memento's she has (some CD's he got her, a couple of Photo's, cards, etc). I told her that I thought that was great, and that I'd like to be there when she does it. (I partly want to see it with my own eyes).
She has not yet done this. A couple of times over the past few weeks, we've sort of mentioned it in passing, but she has yet to make it happen.
I have not brought it up as I feel that it's her deal to do this. Kind of like apologizing after being caught is not the same as volunteering something...
I don't want her to be able to twist this into me controlling her as she seems to do with most other things.
What do you think.
Sorry. I know I bounce around a lot with my thoughts. I appreciate your patience and support...

I do think you still need to be making sure of no contact Try...Things like a digital recorder in her car...or a GPS...or a PI...I firmly believe that you must INSPECT what you EXPECT...

She is very new at NC...I posted here first when I was only 10 days into NC-Fog City...I am not suggesting that you bring her here yet at all...This is your safe haven right now where you need to develop your battle plans...So really do NOT bring her here no matter how much you want to educate her, k? I just realized that telling our story may make you want to do that and I really don't see that in your best interest at this time...

If she has maintained NC, then she is most certainly in withdrawal and that is HORRIBLE for both of you...I have extreme empathy for you as I know I was a nightmare to live with during that time...

Mr. W has said that he will read and post to this thread later when he gets home...See I have been Plan Aed, but I have never Plan Aed anyone myself, and obviously there is a huge difference...I think that Mr. W's insight may be very valuable to you...

Mrs. W

You know, trytoohard, it IS possible to live without the internet in your home. Cellphones, too.

Both are banned from my home until further notice.


Just an idea...

I've thought about taking the computer with me to work.
I chuckle to myself as I think of her reaction...

As for Mrs. W's post, thanks for having Mr. W post I look forward to his perspective. It gives me great hope to KNOW that others have recovered and restored after such a tragedy of inconsideration and selfishness.
The comment about re-creating the A feeling hits home. I asked in an earlier post if this (flirting) might be a way to replace what she was getting with OM with another OM... When I mentioned that thought to WW yesterday during our discussion, she got that guilty little cheshire cat grin I've come to know and despise...
I think this is exactly what's going on.
The issue clearly runs deeper than just an affair. I want her to find and fix whatever this deep problem is. Our very survival as a family depends on it.
I hope she can come back from the mothership...

Oh yeah,
As far as not bringing her here goes, she found my first thread the day before she discovered my snooping software. So she's now aware of the MB post world.
I don't think she's interested in reading though. Most of what's here defies her view of this situation. She doesn't like to hear opposing viewpoints, and I don't think is capable right now of being objective.
She's started and not finished a couple of affair survival books (Not Just Friends, I forget the title of the one by Janice Abrams Springs, but both are very good and highly regarded), and I have HNHN, and Lovebusters, but she's not interested in reading either of these. Self education when it defies how you want to look at something isn't too welcome I guess... I guess it's difficult to see what you want to see when it's in black and white...
If she were in a different place, wanting to self educate and work on fixing this, I think this could be a great forum for her. Unfortunately I don't think she's there yet.
I hope somday soon she arrives...

So, you already know why she does this!

TTH -- I have news for you, you can become the man that your wife flirts with, the one she has fun with, and the guy who makes her feel great and sexy.

I understand that the purpose of the MB website is to direct traffic to the Harleys' books, CDs, counseling, and weekends. And I think all of these things are FANTASTIC.

But I do also think that two very terrific books that teach people how to flirt and become their OWN spouses' playmates are: Rabbi Shmuley Boteach's Kosher Sex and also Kosher Adultery: Seduce and Sin With Your Spouse.

The man who wrote these books is certainly not suggesting that you actually commit adultery or any other sin. He's an orthodox rabbi. But the marital advice about cultivating sexual "ting" and intimacy I thought was very, very good.

Oh, I gotta give my 2 cents here as I can relate, sadly, all too well.

First of all, she is definitely still completely in the fog. She is trying to replace that euphoric feeling of the A. I didn't see my OM for months, and barely spoke to him, and yet it still took until just as recently as last week for me to truly "see the light." I got over him a while ago, but still clung to those old justifications.

Mrs. W, I feel you,sista! I went through very much the same thing (my story is in my sig line) and my H put up with fogspeak like you wouldn't believe. When he posts his story, you will see just how gone I was up until recently.

Secondly, you have every right to watch her every move, but she will not acknowledge this until she is truly out of the fog. I did the exact same things with my H...accused him of invading my privacy, told him that was my trust issue with him, honestly it's textbook.

Thirdly, I will always contend that H should have done none of the things he did for me during those awful months of withdrawl. It has served no purpose except to prolong his agony and feel like he was the only one trying. Cards, flowers, presents, etc all the time...I didn't appreciate any of it. I was too far gone, and it actually made me feel worse b/c I knew I did not deserve any of it, and that he would only resent me even more.

I would say to anyone in this position-leave the WS alone for a while. Continue to tell him/her that you are there for them, that you love them; continue to monitor and ensure NC; and ask for help from others who understand (yours truly and this site for starters) to make sure you can get through it, and to be prepared for any outcome. I am sorry you are going through this, but you have found a great site to help you.

She must come to the table on her own. Only you can decide how long you should wait for her to do so. Sorry to say, I would be prepared for several months after TRUE NC. That's why it is so important to WATCH her.

Hey try;

You know it's weird, when my wife gets involved with a thread and asks me to join in, it always ends up feeling like an assignment; thus, I read it and am at a loss as to what to say. Pardon me if I jump around as I'm just going to throw some thoughts at you and see what sticks. I also don't like posting any legal type advice when I know your wife is reading here or MAY be reading here so if you end up with legal questions you can email me/us at the email address below.

First off...early withdrawal (presuming NC is sticking) is still very fogbound. Your wife is still in the "I'm cool" phase. She's the popular girl and you're her somewhat geeky husband. Now when the geeky guy in high school just happens to get a girl "above" them in school the geeky guy always ends up losing them by desperately cleaving to them at any and all signs of them pulling away. Now Plan A doesn't mean you have to desperately cleave to them...you are NOT a geeky guy. You are her husband. God's perfect choice and perfect gift to her. She doesn't understand that right now but YOU can. You've got an advantage of years of experience just knowing her. You can meet her needs with your eyes closed and with new-found awareness...better than you ever have before. But you have do it with as much CONFIDENCE as you can muster. You are now the "cool guy" the guy she first met years ago. The "cool guy" wouldn't beg or accept crumbs. He'd ask the girl out and if she said "no", he'd go out anyway. The "cool guy" doesn't corner girls and try to constantly talk relationship crap, no he listens and flirts and listens and flirts. The "cool guy" is carefree HOWEVER the "cool guy" is also territorial and doesn't sit by idly while other bulls enter and linger in his turf. He's not afraid to stand up for what's right and against what's wrong. He doesn't apologize for doing so either. Cool guy brags about being possessive and shakes off any allegations of being controlling. Being possessive of your wife is a badge of honor (presuming not taken to extremes which cool guy knows how to walk that line but it's a tough line with a foggy entitled wayward spouse...I didn't master it but I tried, failed and tried again).

Your marriage is going to work more likely than not. She's going to snap out of this fog more likely than not. But there's only so much you can do to control it. You must resign to yourself that you are going to try to enjoy what could be the last few months of your relationship with her to the extent you can and allow God to handle giving her the gift of repentence when and how He sees fit. YOU are good enough and trying to recover your marriage, as a betrayed spouse, is VERY noble. If and when she pulls her head out of her netheregions she WILL appreciate all that you are doing. There is no need to fight about it now. Get caught snooping, apologize and then do it again. Have a bad Plan A night where you get emotional...forgive yourself and move on. You're not perfect and are not required to BE perfect. Do the best you can to fix YOU and save your family and allow the chips to fall where they may.

Ok...ramble over. I've posted a lot of my stuff over on the Just Found Out board in the thread titled "For Newly Betrayed Spouses" which was started by Longhorn and is pinned to the top of the board. Skip through Longhorn's longwinded crap to get to my good stuff (I'm soo kiddin', read it all).

Further, in my sig line is a link to an ebook "31 Reasons to Stop an Affair". Print it out and just leave it laying around the house. DON'T hand it to your lovely wayward fogged out wife. Just allow her to pick it up to peruse what YOU'VE supposedly been reading. That way it's not YOU trying to educate her.

Finally, you are likely losing 'cool' points and being accused of losing her trust and respect by going on-line for "support" amoungst other places and people. This place is GREAT for those that want to be here and come here on their own, but don't overdue the pyscho-babble stuff right now. Lay off and just hang out with her. Rent or go to movies so you don't have to talk all the time. Go to LOUD places where quiet intimate communication is NOT the soup de jour. Romantic dinners out...but a night out at the bowling alley or Dave & Busters is good. Loosen her up with a couple drinks. Go back to how you acted when you first starting dating and you WERE playing it cool. Try to have fun (conversation WILL typically flow much more natural and she WILL talk when she's ready).

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - If your wife reads this I have this to say:

Hi...you aren't quite as cool right now as you think you are. This isn't high school. A middle-aged woman with a small child at home running around having intimate relationships with men, not her husband, IS tragic and about as uncool as it gets. Further, I KNOW it's not how you yourself envisioned your life. It's NOT you. You're pretending to be something you're not and that's one reason why you are hiding from your family, friends and church, anyone that just may burst your little "cool" bubble.

You CAN get your marriage back and you both, together, CAN make it better than it ever was before. Please share your side of the story with us here. We WILL listen and help you process this"

Very nice post, Mr.W!! You said it perfectly, and that is just how I saw my H when he was bending over backwards to "make me see." I had a hard time respecting him, b/c I felt like, God, if he had done this to me, I'd mount his b*lls over the fireplace, and he's buying me FLOWERS! Where's the self-respect and self-worth in that scenario? I remember he bought me a teddy bear that actually says when you squeeze it "hug me, hold me, LOVE me." It seemed so needy to me. Of course, I don't feel that way now, but in NO way did it help at the time (or even now, for that matter). Fair? Absolutely not, but true.

Watch her, be cool, protect your self-worth. You are not the problem, she is.

Playing it cool is perfect. Very nice post!

Still_singing (and vicariously Try and his wife),

What your husband did for you was actually pretty cool in and of itself.

A man. A husband standing up for and fighting for his marriage and family.

Now THAT is actually pretty cool.


Think how cool it is now and appreciate him for it. Tell your husband how much you appreciate what he did NOW and how sorry you couldn't and didn't see how awesome it was then. Try's got an advantage your husband didn't have...MB. Try now knows to do those seemingly "needy" things and keep doing them, to some extent, just unapologetically and not to excess. (you still do some of it because they WILL appreciate it later). Your husband didn't know that but yet he kept doing them anyway.

Sing...your husband sounds like a good guy. You are lucky. He didn't have to do that FOR YOU, ya know; and, despite your current feelings of not be worthy of it somehow, you CAN be worthy again...if YOU do the work. That's all us BH's ask of you. You can't change the past...but you CAN dramatically change BOTH of your futures.

Mr. Wondering

Hi Mr. W, whew, let me explain. H has actually been on this site for months, and is the one who directed me here. I have told him time and time again how much I appreciate all that he did for me (even when I was in the fog), and all he continues to do. He is truly the best person (not just man) the best PERSON I have ever met. I love him with all of my heart and soul and he knows this as well.

All I was really saying is that while he can be there and should fight for his marriage if he so chooses, which it seems he has, he would be better off to protect himself from any more pain and rejection than necessary. She won't appreciate it now anyways, because of the fog, and he may be left feeling even more resentful than ever (lose-lose). Occasionally, yes, but just don't knock yourself out with gestures at this point and "be cool."

Mr. W, you are hilarious, by the way. You sound like (almost) as awsome a guy as my hubby! Your Mrs. W is very lucky as well. I have related to her story more than I could ever explain, and we appreciate your input (hubby is reading over my shoulder).

When you say don't sit idly by, how do I do this?
I want her to stop communicating with this "new" internet guy, as well as continue NC with original OM.
How do I do this without commiting LB's.
She sent me an email yesterday saying she's sorry, and she'll try to be less flirty, but I checked the internet history, and she had erased some of it, but what was left showed at least 3 times she went to his Myspace account, including at least one email.
This was the day after saying she'd try to be less flirty...
How do I stress to her that this is unacceptable to me?

I would take the other approach. Get on his Myspace site and tell HIM that if he doesn't cut it out with your wife...fill in the blank with whatever you feel comfortable saying to him. Take control. Think about this like an addict. If your wife was addicted to heroin, you would be watching her, but also anyone who may be providing her with the drug. Now think about how an addict would react after finally finding someone who will give them their drug of choice, and you bust them and stop it. BE PREPARED. But just as Mr. W says, apologize and then do it again. And again and again.

My husband is a computer guru and he says he will help you block it so she cannot even get on Myspace at ALL. He said he may post instructions for some of these things later for everyone to use.

Take her cell phone. Figure out how to check her calls. Hire a P.I. Whatever. The key here is keeping her "clean" so to speak. It's the only way. She has NO right to do these things until (God forbid) she ends it with you. Like I said b4, only you can decide how long to put up with it.

In a very nuetral tone (sometimes called "charging neutral") and not repetitively you can tell her something to the effect of:

"There is no "try", you either respect me as your husband or you don't....I have no desire or wish to control or dominate you into submission on this subject...the flirting and intimate conversation with other men by a married woman IS inappropriate, hurtful and disrespectful to me. You'd feel the exact same way if the our situations were reversed. I understand you are little mixed up right now and our marriage needs work but before we can actually work on it...all contact with third parties needs to end...immediately. I love you but I refuse to remain in a loveless disrespectful marriage forever. What do you think???"


The "what do you think?" is the closing question. This is sales and you are selling the idea that for marriage recovery to even commence she can't have any intimate extramarital relationships whatsoever. This ISN'T like you are telling her she can't ever speak to another male as long as she lives. Just right now....it's a safety measure so you BOTH can focus on restoring the love into your marriage.

Upon argument (when she gets bold and tries to manipulate you into submission by acting like the marraige is over, etc.) you bring your child into it. You ask the question "well, we are married and we've got a child to think about as well...wouldn't the best case scenario of all of us, particularly our child, that we settle our differences and restore our marital relationship? I'm not feeling all hunky dorey with our marriage right now either, but I am addicted to you and for our child I remain today willing to at least give our marriage a chance. If not for me...how about trying for our son? He deserves our maximum effort.


Mr. Wondering

p.s.- always come back to the respect versus control issue when she alleges or tries to manipulate you calling you "controlling". It's a red herring argument all waywards use to try to get you to back off. No betrayed husband wishes to control and dominate his wife...all they want is to be respected and honored. They want wives who CHOOSE to do the right thing and CHOOSE to respect, love and honor them. Like love...respect is a choice. It's NOT something you TRY to do.

SS,

If your husband (want2try?) follows through with that information the best place to put it is on the spying 101 thread. It's a regular thread that gets bumped often so the information won't get buried. If you have trouble locating it look for a post by Longhorn. He's got it linked in his signature line.

Mr. W

Hi Still_Singing!

This is a great idea! I hope your hubby will post it on the Spying101 thread, as well as here for Try, the Spying101 thread can be found in the JustFoundOut section here in the signature of a poster called Longhorn-there is a thread there started by him that Mr. W made significant contributions to that is excellent...

Also, we have very few couples that post here, it would be great to see you and your husband take an active role here on the MB forums! Welcome! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (sorry for the mini threadjack Try)

As far as gifts and small gestures are concerned in Plan A...Hmmm, see I think it is a fine line...I can agree with Still_Singing that at the time they are not appreciated, however, further down the road, like say us at 2.5 years into recovery, they are remembered with geniune love and awe at the obvious strength and grace that it took to do that stuff in the face of such horrible betrayal...So, for me, looking back it only deepens my sense of awe and admiration for Mr. W...A good thing, no? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Thanks for the input.
I've thought about telling this guy to stop contacting her. I have never met him, and don't know him. Remember, we lived in OR for 9 years together (where he lives), if he really were one of my wifes "friends", how come she never mentioned him ONCE in nearly 10 years together?
I've asked her this without getting a particularly good answer (there are lots of people from her past she's never mentioned, blah blah, blah).
She is the one that established this contact with him, and initiated the sexual innuendo. If I were a single 27 year old guy and had this attractive vibrant woman being this suggestive with me, I'd probably eat it up too.
Actually probably not. I've experienced married women behaving this way towards me, and thought they were trashy, decided it was trouble, and did not get involved. Of course everyone's not as honorable as I am. (hope that doesn't sound too self serving...)
Is the backlash and outrage from WW worth the intervention at this point? He is on the other side of the country and isn't an immediate PA threat.
Though I do think that if we went plan B, with her moving back across the country, I have no doubt she'd look him up...
Should I share with him that we're going through difficulty and this is not helping?
I know he doesn't deserve an explanation, but if he IS a decent guy, maybe he'll understand and remove himself from the situation.
Worst case I guess is that he shares our dialogue with WW, she's more pissed and "controlled", and they continue or even increase their level of closeness...
Oh why does every choice seem to be damned if I do, damned if I don't?...
How honest should I be, and how much do you think I should share with New OM?

trytoo...

I wish you would spend half the energy you put in to drowning and driving yourself crazy with minutia in to plan A.....

uber overthinking
uber over attemtping to make sense of the senseless
uber vigilance that stifles you...

she probably flirts right now cause it is the perfert divergence...

keeps you in the exact spot you are in.....highly focused on YOU figuring out WHY...to the exact point of distraction....so the spotlight stays off of her issues of adultery...

smokescreening at its best....

flirt enough to get caught....then spend weeks dancing around the issue...
playing cat the mouse while you rack your brain trying to figure out why..

it drains me to watch.....

and your plan A suffers...
you would actually be the perfect candidate to do
a stellar plan A and then throw some 180's right in to her face....so your wife who keeps in twirling issues at you has to stop and suddenly realize you ain't standing there watching...

bet you'd get her attention really really quick


so in your plan A have you thought about going out some night without really telling her where you are..what you are doing etc...

have you

ARK