We have been going through attempted NC / Recovery from my WW's EA with a former co-worker.
Within the last month or so she has established Myspace contact with a guy she used to know on the West coast. Apparently she ran in to him on a recent trip back and told him to start a Myspace account so they could communicate.
Her contacts with him have been LOADED with sexual innuendo, and to me are way beyond "Flirting" especially for a married woman (He's single).
We talked this weekend, and I expressed that her doing this especially in light of the situation we're going through was hurtful to me and incosiderate.
I stopped short of telling her not to do it. Rather just let her know how it made me feel, and the choice was hers to continue it or not.
I asked why she thinks she wants to do this.
She said it's fun, it makes her feel sexy, she doesn't think there's anything wrong with flirting, and essentially stated that she's going to continue to do it.
Again, to me there is a difference between innocent flirting and intentional sexual dialogue.
My question is this, what emotionally or otherwise is she missing that causes her to feel that she needs to do this?
Is it insecurity, or some deep seeded issue? I don't think she should do this if it's something that upsets me. I feel that it's a threat to our marriage, and her EA started with "flirting"... I think she's using this term as a blanket definition of any inappropriate way she WANTS to act with other guys. I'm also thinking that she's looking somewhere else for whatever she was getting from OM, now that NC is about a week in... (Why can't she try to get whatever "It" is from me? We used to be everything to each other. (sigh.)
What do you all think?
Should I bring this up in MC this week? ( I think I already know the answer...)
Please help.
Thanks.

Yes, bring it up in counseling!

When I was in the depths of the A, I thought it was ok to flirt with any man. I felt so special so sexy...looking back I was acting like a tart (not saying your wife is...just my POV)

This sounds like something she needs to bring up in IC. Seeking outside validation at the expense of other's feelings is pathological. She needs to learn to get what she needs from within herself, and from you.

peace and strength...

tth,

Mulan had a really EXCELLENT thread recently about "flirting"....let me see if I can find it. People with poor marital boundaries (and often poor self esteem) as well as "entitlement" issues are generally the biggest flirters.

Lemme look for that other thread.

Here's Mulan's first post....her "rant" on flirting and a link to the whole thread:

I was recently part of a panel discussion at a writer's convention where the subject was "Flirting - Do's and Don'ts."

There were a fair number of people in the audience, including three high school girls.

The panel immediately started off with how harmless and fun flirting is. The other female on the panel, a cute younger married woman, mentioned how much she enjoys getting those zings of attention (she actually said that) from other men and considered it harmless fun - just something to get her through the day.

I wanted to ask her if her husband knew about her harmless fun zings of attention, but I didn't. (He was not there. I wonder why.)

At my turn, I said, "Please don't flirt with people who are married. It's massively disrespectful to that person's spouse."

Everybody's face fell and said "oh - well - but it's harmless - uh - uh - "

I said, "The difference between being friendly and being a flirt is that flirting is ALWAYS sexual."

(startled looks from the audience) "uh - what? huh?"

"Of course it's always sexual. When was the last time anybody here flirted with their parent? Or with their sister or their brother?"

(stunned looks as realization dawns)

At this point the cute young married female said, "I wouldn't have any problem with my husband flirting with other women! He's kind of shy and I think it would be cute! It would be good for him! I wouldn't mind at all!"

I put my head down on the table for a minute and tried not to have another meltdown on the spot. Then I said, "I used to think the same thing. I used to think it was cute when my husband flirted with other women and they flirted right back at him. I used to think I shouldn't let it bother me.

"I don't think that way anymore.

"The biggest problem is this: Getting those sexual zings of attention is exactly like a drug to many, many people, both male and female.

"As with any drug, you soon need bigger and bigger and bigger hits to get the same thrill.

"It isn't long before just getting a smile or a reaction out of the waitress or the co-worker isn't enough.

"To get the same zing, you have start spending more and more time with that cute co-worker.

"You have to start going to breaks with them.

"You have to start putting them in your car and driving them off-site for lunch.

"You have to start taking them with you on your business trips

"You have to start taking them to dinner

"And to shows

"And sightseeing

"And to bars

"And drinking with them

"And you have to walk back with them to their hotel because it would be rude if you didn't

"And you have to start lying about all this every single day to your spouse or your significant other so they won't find out and interfere with you getting your harmless fun zings

"And you get to find out what all that lying and unaccounted time does to your spouse's ability to trust you

"And you get to find out what happens to a marriage when you have destroyed your spouse's trust with lies."

The place was dead quiet. The three high-school girls were sitting on the edge of their chairs and their eyes were huge.

"Well, I really didn't mean to bring the panel down like this. I just want to point out that there is a MASSIVE difference between being friendly and courteous to someone and and being a flirt - and that if you don't understand the difference, you *will* destroy good relationships."

At this point the high school girls jumped up and said, "Yeah, we know what you mean! The guys at school are awful! They are all over us all the time! They DON'T know how to just be friendly or nice! They gotta flirt and push all the time and if we don't do it back they get mean and call us - uh, nasty names!"

I gave them one word: "Boundaries."

"Boundaries define the difference between flirting (sexual) and being friendly (normal)."

"Boundaries."

They all looked very happy and the mom of one of them found me later and thanked me for talking to the girls at the panel the way I had.

Just for the record, I worked as a waitress for a while in an airport coffee shop in San Antonio. I did not mind talking to men who were friendly and courteous, but most of them weren't.

They just wanted to flirt.

Remember, I was young and cute then, and 99% of the men I waited on (most of them wearing wedding rings) would flirt, and flirt, and push and dig for that zing of attention to be returned, and they would get very annoyed and refuse to tip if it wasn't returned.

One of them called me "rude" and "a b*tch" even though the service had been fine. The only problem was I had not returned his flirting.

I hated it. I felt like a wh*re. I wasn't there to serve coffee and food - I was there to provide strange men with zings of attention and flirtation and THAT'S what they were tipping me for.

My husband behaves the same way. How many times have I heard him say, "Oh, well, this one's getting negative tip points" - and it is ALWAYS because she refuses to flirt with him. I have always been sitting right there and seen this countless times.

It might dawn on a man someday that that waitress or check-out girl he's trying so desperately hard to get that "zing" from is almost certainly somebody's girlfriend or somebody's wife

It might dawn on him that MAYBE she's trying not to disrespect her own boyfriend or her own husband by flirting with YOU.

I can tell you, the vast majority of men behave with waitresses and with ANY OTHER WOMAN IN A SERVICE JOB exactly like my husband does.

They behave like it's part of that woman's job to flirt with them and provide them with zings of sexual attention no matter what she's really there for - and if she won't do that, she's a rude b*tch and it's negative tip points for her.

I have been subjected to this many, many, many times by married men and I ALWAYS hated it.

I was happy to be friendly and courteous to men who were also behaving in a friendly and courteous manner AND WHO TREATED ME WITH RESPECT, but I quickly started DESPISING the ones who insisted that I return their flirting - that I give them a nice little sexual zing of attention along with the rest of the service - or they'd refuse to pay.

To me, that's how you treat a wh*re. And I honestly don't think these men have the first clue of how to relate to a woman any other way.

Why is it that places like Hooters and casino bars and even the geisha in Japan are so bloody popular?

Because those women are PAID to flirt with men as part of the service. When men go in there, they can be guaranteed of having their flirting returned and getting those zings of sexual attention that some of these rude frigid b*tches working in restaurants and in other service jobs (like me) just won't provide.

All they have to do is pay for it.

The trouble is, there are plenty of women who WILL respond to flirting because they've learned that it will give them whatever they want

Like tips

Like money

Like attention

Like gifts

Like lunches

Like dinners

Like trips

Like Broadway shows

Like evenings in fancy sushi and sake bars

Like promotions

These women ARE wh*res in ever sense of the word. They care nothing about the husbands or fiances or boyfriends they might have at home - they are absolutely willing to trade flirting, sexual attention, sucking up and often a whole lot more to ANY man who is in a position to give them anything on the list above.

He can be a total stranger or he can be their boss - they do not care as long as they get what they want from that list.

And boy, do they ever get it.

But women like me, if we try to insist on being treated with courtesy and respect at all times, are

frigid
rude
a b*tch
nasty
controlling
need help
need medication
need to find somewhere else to live

And get ignored in favor of the wh*res.

I am happy to treat other men with friendliness, courtesy and respect.

I will NOT flirt with them because I an a married woman and it is NOT part of my job to provide strange men with zings of sexual attention.

So, somebody come in here and defend flirting among married people. Go ahead, make my day!
Mulan

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post3345594

How do I approach this with her?
We are communicating quite a bit, which isn't exactly Plan A to a T, but we do seem to make progress sometimes in understanding what each other is feeling.
Several hours after a lengthy discussion in which she basically refused to accept that anything she was doing was wrong, and that I'M overreacting, she did apologize for doing it, and said she'd try harder not to do it for me.
My concern though is that we (she) needs to discover and resolve whatever issue is causing her to need to do this.
This is what I'm hoping to gain some insight into in this forum. Perhaps I can help her...
The input and advice I've gotten on my other threads has been quite helpful. I only wish that she were interested in a little self help as well.
Thanks for the help and good thoughts.
From a ladies point of view, how do I best approach this with her to have a PRODUCTIVE discussion?

Does anyone know what specific issues may be lurking beneath the surface that drives my wife's need for this?

"My concern though is that we (she) needs to discover and resolve whatever issue is causing her to need to do this."

I'm not sure if I know the answer but I will try to answer based on my own problems with a flirting (X)spouse. I think maybe it is one of their most important emotional needs to get the attention they get from flirting. My WXH needed to be shown a LOT of admiration, for example or he felt neglected to the point that he'd actually become angry as if somebody had purposely done something wrong to hurt him. It's one of his EN's that I didn't fully understand and meet for him in our marriage.

I now a lot of people flirt because they honestly don't think it's wrong or dangerous to do. But once it leads to an adultery I don't understand how they continue to deny it's risky.

I totally agree with MaggieMagster that you should bring it up in a MC session.

I also wished that instead of only trying to talk to my WXH in private about such concerns I had also dared to bring them up in front of some of our family and friends to allow my husband to hear from others that they also thought it was risky. My WXH tried to 'gaslight' me into accepting his flirting, tried to make me feel as if my objection to it was 'crazy'. I probably deprived myself of tons of support by keeping those discussions just between the two of us.

"From a ladies point of view, how do I best approach this with her to have a PRODUCTIVE discussion?"


Ask her what makes her feel needed and sexy. Tell her you want this to be fulfilled at home, by you.

Ask her what about outside attention "feels" fulfilling to her. Ask her if she is actually being fulfilled by the behavior.

Basically, I don't think you're going to get great answers to these questions right now, but I think you need to get her to be self-reflective.

It's too easy right now for her to project this onto you as being YOUR problem that you don't like it. If you turn all the questions around to focus on her feelings, why she is behaving this way, how does she think she is being seen by others (a married woman acting like a flooze...) she will hopefully start asking her self these questions.

As far as specific issues? For me it was boredom, it was a sense of entitlement, it was rebelling...all immature stupid selfish reasons. Once I recognized these reasons in myself, they became shameful to me and I started working on getting validation from myself, from doing a good job at work, and from my husband.

Some women do it because they feel their only true worth is an an object of desire. You (and she) need to focus on how wonderful her OTHER qualities are, so she can build up esteem about those.

My husband didn't ask me any of these questions, but my IC did.

If you can think of yourself as an impartial counselor, looking for her opinion on her own choices, you will probably get farther than acting like an angry spouse. (I'm not saying you don't have the right to be angry, but showing that anger right now will not be productive, IMO).

I hope that's helpful.

Very helpful, thank you.
Anyone else have some insight?

Hi Try...

I'll take a stab at this...You are most definitely right about the root of this being insecurity...I know that was certainly true for me...A couple of terms come to mind and I think they are shared by many WSs..."approval junkie" and "people pleaser"...A desperate need for outside validation which I think many times comes from not understanding that others don't define you...Just as easily as people with this problem take a compliment to heart they take an insult in much the same way, actually worse...that insult remains for a lifetime...They define themselves by the views of others, not realizing the one thing they want so desperately, security, will never be obtained by the opinions of other people, but rather from their own self approval...

I think especially that it is a real struggle for pretty women...Women who have repeatedly had their looks validated by others almost to the exclusion of approval for other things that truly count, like intelligence or skill...Because beautiful women have received adulation for their looks almost from birth it becomes expected and even needed...This becomes a real fiasco as the years go by and age begins to set in as, of course, it always does...Desperation to still feel that same self worth that they for so long have through the validation of others fuels the flirting and exhibitionist type behaviors...

I think the solution to this can be found in IC, and for many, in the growth of a personal relationship with God. I certainly don't have all the answers, but I think starting a dialogue with your wife about this kind of stuff could be helpful...not in a teaching sense, but in an understanding sense...a supportive sense...I would also bet that admiration is one of your wife's top needs...Finding out how she likes for that need to be met by you could certainly go a long way as well...I believe a combination of all those things will set you both on the right path...It's a marathon, certainly not a sprint...

Hope something I've said sheds some light...

Mrs. W

Very insightful.
Admiration is in fact one of her top 5 EN's. I've been trying to focus on Conversation, as it's her top and the one she ranks me lowest on. She actually ranks me high on Admiration. I'va always been very supportive in that way, validating her etc.
She is very attractive, but didn't always feel that way. She's really just lately taken to "feeling sexy" as she puts it, and I think she does feel it to be empowering to her.
I think you're right on with her needing to validate herself without hurting those (me) who are closest to her.
She is in "The Fog" right now, and I don't expect to get through to her, but I'd like to try to get her to be more thoughtful in assessing why she needs this.
Thanks, keep it coming!

How do I approach this with her?

here's my thought...

you shuddup and you don't approach her...

why...
why
why...
cause you are in plan A....and in plan A you don't have long drawn out discussions with WS...about their actions...

why
why
why...
cause it's pointless...

she doesn't value marriage and committment right now...and until she decides to value those things....
and there will be no recovery till that time...

she won't act in a way that honors you, the marriage or herself...
\
and guess what...other man and other men ...loooovve the fact that she is flirty...and with them she gets a very very empty and warped sense of belonging and feeling valued...

with you she gets looooong drawwwn outttt depressing discussions about how bad and wrong she is....

hmmmmmmmmm which way would you go if you were a lost soul gorging yourself on emptyness.....


plsn a
no relationship talk...

button your lip.

ARK

ayep.....what she said.

What about in our Conseling session?
Is there a chance that a third "Objective" perspective might hit home?
This (A, NC broken NC, Re-NC etc) has been going on for months now. I don't want plan B as we have a child and seperation would mean 3400 mile seperation for 2yo son and one parent.
She does seem to have moments of clarity (remorse, guilt, wanting to fix our relationship), so I'm not ready to give up hope yet.
She did, remember, acknowledge that her "flirting" was hurtful and said she'd cool it.
She is open to finding out why she feels the way she does re: ambivilance, perhaps putting the flirting issue on the heels of her ecogniozing that she has some other issues might bring her some light.
No?...

If anything Try, open ended questions only...Let her talk...empathize with her...this will meet her need for conversation...But as I said before don't try to educate her, that will not work...

Mrs. W

Mrs W,
can you share your story a bit?
You seem to have recovered your marriage, and I'd love some more insight it to what you both went through, and more importantly WHAT WORKED!

Staying hopeful...

I'd still like some ideas on what might be driving this need in her.
Not necesarily for me to use to try to fix her, but rather for me to try to understand better for myself.
It's the old addage about the devil you know...
I feel like understanding what might be going on inside of her may help me.
Does this make sense to anyone?
I know it's difficult to get a second hand diagnosis, but just thought there may be some generally accepted reasons for this type of (self destructive?) behavior.

Hmmm...our story...yeah, that's an easy post...LOL...I'll sure give it a shot, albeit abbreviated...

K, let's see, we had both withdrawn in the marriage...Both very ripe for an affair due to that...We had just quit putting in effort...Our dd was 5 at the time and attending school, so I sure had a less involved role as a SAHM...My baby was gone most of the day, I had lots of new free time on my hands which I chose not to put to good use-I sure wasn't making our home environment a pleasant one, and Mr. W was a workaholic, and ya know, who wants to come home when things aren't very nice? He would leave the house in the morning @ around 7:45am and wouldn't return most nights til 12:00 or 1:00am...By the weekend I was burned out of being by myself with our dd from the time she got out of school til the time she went to bed...So I withdrew more and stayed in our bedroom on the computer or watching tv and left Mr. W to entertain our dd...

Conversation at this point (usually our strong suit) was dead...What did we have to talk about but how annoyed we were with each other? For me, without conversation I could not connect...SF is a top need of Mr. W's and how he connects with me...I didn't buy that at the time and thought he only wanted sex for sex's sake...Now I see how wrong I was in my attitude about sex (I have MB to thank for that)...Admiration is a top need of mine, but dang I wasn't doing anything very admirable back then, so how in the heck could Mr. W meet that need really?

Okay, so in the middle of all this terrible withdrawal, I get an email from my ex high school/college bf through classmates.com...We had dated off and on for nine years back in the day-Good Lord, could BIG RED DANGER FLAG been all over that or what??? Truth was, I was flattered as all get out by that email (at the time I was in the midst of a very dark depression)...I even called and told Mr. W about it-told him how excited that I was that this guy had gone so far as to contact me...DUH...Mr. W, being a liberal kind of guy at the time thought nothing of it, nor did I really because afterall, I was one of those folks that said "I WOULD NEVER CHEAT"...When you think that way, moving boundaries is no sweat, yanno? So I emailed him back...found out that he had been divorced since October of 2004 (this was in Feb of 2005) Phone numbers were exchanged-at first the conversations were okay, but quickly turned to "remember whens"...At that point OM noticed that I was not my usual perky self and said as much...that opened the floodgates and the conversations turned to "what ifs"...the emails and phone calls stepped up, and out came the text messages...Btw, this was a long distance situation...Soon we made plans to get together when my dd and I were going home for winter break at the end of March...The rest you can probably guess...The relationship went physical, which crazily enough didn't take a big jump...I had a past sexual history with OM and of course our recent communications had stripped away all boundaries...

I came home VERY detached from Mr. W as you might imagine...Mr. W got real suspicious, found a hotel receipt, new lingerie and the final straw, a very graphic text message...Dday was in April 2005...I was completely addicted to OM and the affair at this point and told Mr. W, "I can't not do this" (nice double negative) I made plans to leave for two weeks to stay in a hotel and see OM (May 2005)...This was before Mr. W found MB, so he didn't know about exposure...I went and continued the affair...Left Mr. W alone with our DD who was REALLY SICK the morning I set out-that kills me to think about now...I was just as bad, if not worse, than any WS that you read about here...ugh...

My mom, of course, knew something was up as I was not choosing to stay with my parents when I came into town...I just told her that I needed "space" to think about all the bad stuff in our marriage (typical battlecry of the WS)...My mom stayed on top of me about this...Finally after returning from being with OM, I broke down and exposed myself to my mom...That was all she wrote...My mom was PISSED, understandably...She loves Mr. W and of course wanted the best for our dd...She lent Mr. W her full support...They conspired and since she had known OM from childhood, she called him and threatened him with all sorts of believable stuff-and he KNEW she would make good on those threats...He was a coward like most all OMs are...He dumped me the next day without telling me why, as that had been one of my mom's stipulations...I went nuts-by the book for a WS...Told Mr. W that I wanted to separate, thinking I could persuade OM if I was "single"...I still laugh at Mr. W's simple answer to that that worked on me...He just said "NO"...calmly and securely, "NO"...Don't know why, but that baffled me and I shut up and started withdrawal...Which was a nightmare...BUT...Mr. W was the most amazing Plan Aer in the world...He let me grieve...listened to REALLY horrible things that I said and just did a lot of nodding and understanding...Went into high gear of doing fun social things with me (read: we partied like rock stars-see that was how our courtship began years ago and he took us back to that time-no relationship talks unless I initiated)...

I was really miserable in withdrawal-self esteem crushed...By this time Mr. W had started reading MB and had purchased Surviving An Affair and another ebook...He left those things lying around the house and I was in so much despair that I picked up both and began reading...He also sent me a link to the forums here and I began reading...Getting really involved in certain threads and getting mad at the WSs talked about in them-still didn't identify that that was ME in those stories really...I gradually became aware...Eventually I registered and posted here first...Wanting to know if my feelings for Mr. W would ever return...I honestly didn't think they could (I was VERY wrong)...I was told in essence to "fake it til ya make it" and that is how the whole recovery process for us began...Oh and I posted some seriously foggy stuff here in the beginning...Mr. W even registered under a different name and posted to me...We still laugh about the fact that I immediately had a connection with that poster...I thought he was darn smart and really funny...Goes to show that I was attracted to Mr. W even when I thought I wasn't...

At the time Mr. W did tell me that he had only one boundary and that was that he refused to be in a loveless marriage...Unbeknownst to me, he had resided himself to the fact that he would go through the summer with me and have as much fun or pleasure as I would allow...thinking that it could be the last time that we had together as an intact family...By the end of the summer had things not started looking up, he intended to put our house on the market and take our dd and move to his parents home.(they only live there in the summer) By the grace of God I began to get it and things started looking up...

For us, MB (the forums, the books and the weekend seminar) has been our saving grace...I didn't find out that my mom and Mr. W had anything to do with OM dumping me for more than a year after the affair ended...I can't tell you how grateful and in awe of them that I am for saving me and our family from, well, ME...

Today we are very happy together and continue to implement MB principles in our marriage...I could not ask for any more blessings than I have been granted...I didn't deserve them, that's for sure, but I am more grateful than I have words to say...

Gee Try, I'm not sure that this long diatribe was what you were looking for...I know that I've missed things, but I tried my best to give you a clear picture of what transpired...Please feel free to ask me specifics and I will provide you anything that I can...

Mrs. W

Thanks, Mrs. W.
I only wish I'd been calmer and understood the MB concepts and Plan A from the beginning.
I guess I understood a couple of years ago when WW and I started drifting (unintentionally) apart. Perhaps A would never have happened.
At any rate, I appreciate you sharing your story. I only hope that my WW wakes up to her actions and what effect they are having on our family's future.
She still is in the "I'm upset with you" stage.
Granted, she discovered I was snooping with software, which she now cites as HER trust issue with me.
She seems to simply regurgitate and throw back at me anything I bring up that's hurtful to me.
I know, I know, NO expectations.
It's tough, as we do seem to communicate well sometimes, but it often morphs back into hurt speak.
I want to be a better communicator, but she doesn't give me much opportunity.
I guess I'm at a loss for how to keep being a safe place, to meet her EN's when there's just not much, seemingly to talk about.
Your comment about admiration hits home. I want to do a better job of that for her, but I have a hard time finding things to admire about her these days...

Still have this question. Can anyone help?
I'd still like some ideas on what might be driving this need in her.
Not necesarily for me to use to try to fix her, but rather for me to try to understand better for myself.
It's the old addage about the devil you know...
I feel like understanding what might be going on inside of her may help me.
Does this make sense to anyone?
I know it's difficult to get a second hand diagnosis, but just thought there may be some generally accepted reasons for this type of (self destructive?) behavior.