Thanks for the thump to the forehead.
It was needed and well received.
I am going to Plan A the "Dickens" (how's that for a holiday reference?)out of her for the rest of the year. As Mr. W has pointed out this is perhaps my last chance for a family Christmas, and I refuse to let her selfish behavior or my feelings about it ruin this for my Son.
WW has said that she wants to have a good Christmas this year (yeah right. I know what I want from Samnta!), and dammit I'm going to give it to her. In spades.
I feel somewhat liberated by this last kick to the knees from her.
I find that not giving a sh*t seems to make a better Plan A more achievable.
I do have some confusion on how to walk the line between discussing the issues in counseling, and when she wants to, and not LBing and giving up Plan A ground I've gained.
Any thoughts?

You have been given sooo much good advice in this thread. Go back and re-read them all many times. Get a plan. I know you feel bad about the email now, but that little event may go a long way in her online antics. But then again, maybe not. She is completely fogged. She is not maintaining NC. You are not executing Plan A. All you can change is YOU, not her. The only thing you can do is Plan A right now, and work on yourself.

Read the success stories. She hasn't left yet, although she has threatened, BUT SHE HASN'T DONE IT! And even if she does, there are many, many success stories that happen even after the WS takes off with the OM- or alone for that matter.

Please hang in there. I know you are angry and hurt, but you cannot bring her out of the fog-you just can't. Nor should you try (directly). Plan A the crap out of her!

So, Wednesday night after finding out about WW going to visit OM at his work (With my 2yo son),thus breaking NC AGAIN,
I call MIL to expose what's going on.
MIL was pissed and said she'd call WW to "try to talk some sense into her".
Well, last night MIL called. I had just gotten home from work and WW went upstairs to talk for about 30 min.
I'm suspicious about how WW is portraying th situation to MIL, but I can't control that. Oh well.
Anyway, after WW came back downstairs, she told me that she's "willing to give up this friendship", but she's not willing to live with me being controlling and jealous.
Now I feel that she's in absolutely no position to negotiate, or make demands of me.
Prior to her A, there was NEVER any hint of control or jealousy. I am not that type of person. She is trying to define our whole relationship based on my reaction to HER HAVING AN AFFAIR...
I know it's fogspeak. I probably should have responded with something like "wow, crazy weather, huh" when she said this, but I slipped (again) out of Plan A mode, and did explain that my "Jealousy" as she now refers to it, was brought on by HER actions.
That she can not expect me to react differently to her unless she acts differently.
Am I wasting my breath and sanity?
I can't seem to do a very good Plan A. I'm just not sure I have the strength for it anymore...
We have a counseling session in about an hour, and I'd like to bring this disingenuous gaslighting of hers up there.
Any thoughts???

Good job.

Nice. I wish my in-laws would've done the same thing.

Exactly.

Yep. You know her argument is bogus and that you aren't a jealous and controlling person. It's tough but you're just going to have to ignore this fogspeak.

I think you know the answer to that question. In case you don't: yes, you're wasting your breath. I wasted a lot of breath trying to explain my feelings to WW. She's wayward and in the fog and will not be swayed by reason. Don't bother.

You need to start preparing for Plan B. What steps are you taking to make that happen?

What do you think you will accomplish by doing so? I don't think there is much point. Stick with Plan A until you can't anymore and then head to Plan B.

Try- you should forgive yourself when you slip out of Plan A. This is not an easy road to say the least. I was so upset when I heard she broke NC yesterday and DH and I spoke about it for a while. Particularly how my excuse to continue seeing the OM b/c of the music affected us even after the PA was over. The reason I have posted to you (b/c I am still working on clearing my own fog) is because you sound sooo much like my DH and how he approached me, how his love for me actually hindered him from following Plan A because he (like you) didn't want to hurt me. This will always amaze me after the way I had hurt him. It's also why I was so adamant about watching her. I know that the sooner NC is in place-permanently-the sooner you can work towards recovery. Until then, and even for a while after, it will be a very bumpy ride.

She is still there with you. She is still going to IC, and is still speaking to people who are trying to get through to her. There is hope. Take comfort in the help you are getting here. She is projecting her anger at herself onto you (I was very good at this, too) because she knows you don't want to lose her. Sounds like she doesn't want to lose you either, no matter what she says.

Be patient with yourself and forgive yourself when you slip off Plan A. Then, get up and try again. Yesterday was a horrible day for you, so give yourself some credit.

Take care!

LaLa,
I find it very touching that you are following my story, and feel compelled to help. I can't tell you how much that means to me.
So we just had our MC session (2nd attempt, as 1st counselor wasn't working), and HALLELUJA! I finally feel like I have an ally.
Two points specifically were significant, and a relief to me.
1. She told WW that visiting OM w/ 2yo son was crossing the line under any circumstances. WHEW!
2. She said to WW that if she felt that continuing contact w/ OM was damaging her marriage (which WW did say), she should consider stopping it. WHEW!
This is the first time in our 7 counseling sessions that this was said by the counselor.
Now I realize that the counselor cannot tell her what to do, so the phrasing has to be right, but WW clearly (seemed) to get the message.
This is the first time that HER ACTIONS were addressed in counseling rather than my inability to meet her needs (gag)...
After the session as we were walking to our cars, I put my arm around her and held her. We paused and she faced me and hugged me and said "I'm sorry"... I told her that we can get through this, and she said she wants to be a better person. LSS, we paused a bit at her car, told each other I love you, laughed a little and kissed. I felt a lot better than I did walking in to the session.
I feel more hopeful, and sadly am not foolish to read too much into this, I am choosing to hold on to this feeling, and use it to help me do a better Plan A, and to have a better Christmas. I'll keep trying...
Thanks to all for the kind words and thoughts.

((((((trytoohard))))))

hang in there, my friend. we are here for you...

Hey Try!

How are you things going for you today?

Hey Try! Haven't heard from ya-wanted to see how everything is going...?

Hey, I'm here.
didn't post over the weekend. Had a relative in town.
So, I guess everything's going the same.
I'm finding WW's actions and attitude hard to bear.
I'm not sure I have the strength to go on.
My birthday was Friday (sucked) other than glimmer of hope and fleeting sense of reality from WW after counseling. (She finally called after lunch to say happy birthday... Really sincere.
Christmas is next week. (anticipating suck).
No effort whatsoever to show any acceptance of her actions. Occasional passisve agressive comments...
Just the same ole same ole.
Mrs. W selflessly offred to let my WW email her personally to talk, which WW told me she wanted to, and would do...
Still no attempt. "Hasn't found the time"...
Of course she's had plenty of baby free time due to me and my cousin being around all weekend. Plenty of time to read her novel (recommended by OM, of course), plenty of time to log into Myspace to check up on OM2 several times every day, just a bunch of BS, and I continue to be the enemy, I'm controlling, jealous, and all my behaviours that were BROUGHT ON by her affair, have magically travelled through time, and are the things that are wrong with me and our marriage.
I know this is par for the course, but I don't think I can take it. I'm in a pickle as seperating (Plan B style) is the worst thing for my son, and I don't know if I can do that.
But this continuing to wait for her to get an F-ing clue is unbearable.
I need some help...

Mark, Mr. W, BK, etc...want to jump in here.

Glad you came back so these guys can help you. Read toomuchtoosoon's posts from over the weekend. And read Mark's "rant for newbies" thread. It is awesome. I will bump it up so you can find it.

Hang in there!

Hey y'all.
I read a good bit of the "newbie" thread, and I have a few questions about counseling.
We did couples with someone who thinks that the marriage must be fixed before expecting the A to end. I disagree completely and fundamentally with this, and stopped seeing her for MC. We found a second counselor who seems better, but we've only seen her twice. The first was just an "intake" one without much specifics. The second session, last week, was a little encouraging to me (granted I may be wanting to see something that's not there right now...), but C2 did at least point out that 1. affair should end, 2. WW bringing 2yo son when she sees OM is completely out of line. So I'm willing to continue to see C2 for now. At least WW is going...
Problem is, WW's IC is still with C1. I do not want WW to continue seeng C1 as her philosophy is not consistant with mine (BTW, WW and I have agreed that A must end first for Recovery to commence.)
WW "likes" C1 and is finding it "helpful" to try to figure out her ambivilance etc. (Not a surprise, as C1 doesn't seem to think that an on-going affair is a bigger problem than "feeling functions" (Gag))
I want WW to continue with IC if it helps, but I want it to be focused on ending the affair, or at least for that to be a goal.
How do I:
a. Find a counselor that embraces end the affair first philosophy?
b. Do this without feeding the "Control" issue that seems to be WW's biggest complaint right now?
Our current MC does not do IC w/ MC patients.
Please help.
Are there screening questions I can ask of a prospective C?
I sure cant expect WW to do anything on her own...

Try...

Have you tried clicking on "Local Help" at the top of this website? It's relatively new, so I'm not sure there is a counselor that is listed in your area that does MB style coaching/counseling...The other and BEST option imo, is to set up an appointment with Steve Harley himself...He is FANTASTIC at getting through to waywards...It would be the BEST way to spend your money...

Mrs. W

Thanks.
I have tried the web link, but no-one's registered anywhere near us.
I would like to do a Dr. Harley session. Not sure if it's worth it with WW so fogbound.
I would like to address the counselor issue with WW, and wonder how to achieve changing her IC with her support. If the IC will really help her I want her to do it. I just don't like the philosophy of her current C. I really would like some input on how best to do that. What sort of Q's to ask new Counselor. etc.
BTW, sorry WW hasn't talked to you yet. I'm frankly very embarrased for her right now.

Also,
do you think it would make any difference to make the Appt. with Jennifer?
Thought if she heard it from another female?....
Is she as good as Steve?...

Try...

Don't be embarrassed in front of ME...I was a WW of the WORST kind, I get it...I don't know that anything you say to your WW will change who she chooses for IC...I have a great IC and I remember during the time of my affair Mr. W calling her FOR me...I was LIVID...REFUSED to even speak with my OWN IC...She'd been my IC for years for issues stemming from growing up with a father who had Bipolar Disorder...So I don't have any advice on that front I'm sorry to say...Waywards are a stubborn breed...

As far as Steve and Jennifer are concerned, I know that they are equally qualified...I haven't met Jennifer and I have met Steve, so that is why my recommendation is him...He just rocks...I think it depends on the time that you would want to set up counseling as to who you would get...Jennifer is in the Phillipines and Steve is in Minnesota...Btw, Dr. Harley is their dad...Neither Steve or Jennifer are doctors.

Mrs. W

Btw, I do know that Steve is FANTASTIC and getting through fog...He has a great "best case scenario" that he presents to waywards...A combo of understanding the wayward mindset, great counseling/coaching skills AND sales ability...

Mrs. W

Do you think I should remind her of her committment to do the email.
As I think, there are many committments she's made and broken. Reading A / M books, destroying OM memento's, etc... Should I bring these up too?
How about in MC on Thursday?
I'm so exhausted from all of this. I've started spontaneously tearing up while driving to work, sitting at my desk (where no work is getting done), making a sandwich, whatever...I haven't slept through the night since D Day.
I cant stop thinking about what she's done, what she's doing, waht a piece of S this guy is, how she continues to betray the father of her son, on and on, and I just can't believe the hurt and pain.
Some (most) days (like today),I don't know if I can go on...

Sure, remind her to email me...Tell her that I would LOVE to hear from her...Tell her that ALL it will even take is a one sentence email...I'll take it from there...Heck ask her if it's okay for you to pass along her email to ME, I'll reach out to her if she's willing(the willingness part is a large part of the battle)...Do you think she would speak with me? I am FAR better by phone...I can talk much better and faster than I can type! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> She knows you "know" us from the MB forums, right?

I'm so sorry you are going through this Try...

Mrs. W

Whatever makes you say this? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />