Yes, she knows where I "know" you from. I've even shared a few choice thoughts from both you and Mr.W.
I was really hoping she'd make an effort. My concern with you contacting her is that if SHE doesn't reach out, there may be no point. It will just be someone else "pressuring" her.
She just showed up at my work for late lunch.
I'll let you know how it goes.
I'll look for your reply when I get back.
Thanks.

Try-

I cannot imagine how badly you are hurting, just try not to get so consumed by the pain that you cannot function, K? Work out, spend time with your beauitful son, find strength here by posting and letting out your feelings. Vent to us, cry with us, then turn around and smile at her and say something nice, light and upbeat.

Put on your armor and BREATH...don't get sucked into verbal battles. She is really in "I'm too cool for you" mode (barf-I know this one!). Show her otherwise (and more importantly-SHOW YOURSELF!)

Ugh...Don't all we former waywards know 'bout that, LaLa? I had all these what I thought were clever little sayings...silly jokes...immature as crap lingo that I used with OM...Man it makes you want to GAG so bad when you look back and see just how incredibly STUPID that you acted, looked and sounded...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I understand what you are saying about her making the effort Try...I tend to agree with you...I just wanted to see if I could get my foot in the door and at least establish rapport with her before I even started trying to get through about the affair...Rapport is SO important (that is what the sales person in me knows instinctively)...Gotta get her to like me before she is likely to listen to a word I say, kwim?

Mrs. W

I cant thank you enough for you WW perspective.
Would you elaborate on "showing her" that she's not too cool? This does seem to describe her right now. Almost laughing at me in a sense. Smug little hurtful comments, generally unpleasant to be around, etc, etc....
I think I'm having the most difficulty in feeling out the line between being happy and upbeat and attempting to communicate boundaries.
I'm not the greatest actor, and she can tell how I'm feeling most of the time regardless of how I'm acting. I'm fairly transparent. (makes honesty really easy...)
She on the other hand seems to be relying more and more on increasingly pathological justifications for whatever she wants how she wants it. I think she's really enjoying her little power trip. Shame she feels that she needs to do this, and doubly shameful that she seems to have to do it TO the person who has loved, chrished supported and protected her more than enyone else EVER in her life...

We just had lunch together with my cousin who was on his way to the airport to return home after his 4 day visit. I thought the whole weekend about exposing to him, because he is my closest cousin, and WW really likes him too. I chose not to. For some reason, in spite of being treated like an enemy, I keep defaulting to that which will not hurt her or make her uncomfortable.. What a sap!
So the time in the car after dropping him off was at the least tense. We didn't talk about anything in particular, especially not relationship stuff, but we're just so distant. She seemed genuinely remorseful and hopeful for us immediately after MC on Friday, but easily slipped back into demented alien soon thereafter... I can't take this roller coaster.
She's got her IC this evening and was quick to point out how great it would be for her if I could leave work early, meet her at C's and pick up the kid so she could have a private session.
I will go get him. I don't want him involved in our counseling at 2 1/2 (and quite precocious). And I resent giving her what she wants. I feel like all I'm accomplishing through being happy and upbeat it catering to her sense of entitlement and enabling her continued trampling on my few remaining vestiges of love for her.
it's at the point where just thinking of her, or seeing a picture of her immediately invokes unpleasantness within me.
There used to be pure love and joy.
Why must she do this?(rhetorical)...

This would be a good one for Mr.W to tackle...or Mark. They are so good at pointing out what Plan A is all about...no expectations.

You remind me so much of my DH. He could never hide his feelings from me, or how angry he was, bitter, resentful...it is so hard when you wear your heart on your sleeve. So hard to shove that all aside and put on a friggin fake happy face, or so he has told me (and I can't even imagine how I could manage it, 'cuz I am pretty transparent as well!)

DO NOT try to teach the unteachable. It will drive you insane. You cannot reason with someone who is currently devoid of logic. She will use it against you, almost definitely, and to justify her "feelings." Remeber-there is no "silver bullet."

TTH,

OK. Refresher time.

Plan A:

Meet her ENs
Avoid LBs
No expectations

(Ask TMTS for details)

Set boundaries...Not ways to control her, only define what you will do. Boundaries are for US not others. While it is hoped that those boundaries will change their actions, that is not their intent. Our boundaries define US not them.

If she is verbally abusive, a valid boundary is "I will not allow you to abuse me." An invalid boundary, "Stop abusing me."

Boundary enforcement..."If you are going to abuse me verbally, I will leave the room." "If you continue to do it, I will leave the house for a few hours." "If you keep doing it in the future, I will go to somewhere that I am not being abused until you get help." Escalating enforcement of the common and consistent boundary that defines what you will not allow to happen, the abuse. You can't make her stop, but do not have to let her abuse you verbally.

During Plan A...NO relationship talks.(Unless in the safe environment of a MC's office.) None...Nada...Zip...Zilch...

Spend time together NOT working on the relationship, but rather meeting her ENs and allowing her to meet some of yours as she feels able. Save the marriage first...fix it if you can save it. It will be your love for each other that will keep you together. To do that you need to spend time together doing things that are enjoyable rather than things that take all the energy out of you both.

You have identified in yourself the fact that your love for her is dying. You once longed to spend time with her and now dread it. You felt great by simply seeing a picture of her, now it conjures feelings of anger and a distaste that is hard to swallow. She is experiencing the same things!

Make your time together the best part of every day. Make being together something to be looked forward to rather than a chore to be endured. If she is most happy when she is with you, she will long to be with you. If she is at her least happy state when with you, she will want only to get away from you. This is the point of the keystone of Dr Harley's methods...the 15 hours per week...the Policy of Undivided Attention. This is the single most important thing you can understand and do.

Mark

Thanks, Mark.
It's just so damn hard to stay focused on the right things. It's so counterintuitive.
Part of what's difficult in meeting EN's is that Conversation is really the only thing she feels I'm lacking. We simply don't seem to have much to talk about. She's not giving me much to work with either. Ai times it seems she's ****** bent on seeing how far she can push me.
As mentioned, we have a two year old son. This past weekend I had a good bit of time at home with him and WW. I often chuckled to myself as I realized the coaching and teaching I was giving the 2 year old basically applied to her as well.
I'm trying to keep up a good front, and do the right things. Advice and support from you and others here has and is really making a difference for me.
Do you have any thoughts on strategy for finding her a different MC?

When it comes to MCs, there is none better than Steve Harley. He can get more done in 45 minutes on the phone than in months of sitting in a chilly office listening to the continuous drone of complaints being reformatted for a new day.

Second best would be someone who understands and follows Dr Harley's methods.

The key is to rebuild the love first and foremost. Many of the other issues will solve themselves or become less important. The serious ones then can be handled in the safe place of the MC's office.

What you need to do is make her fall in love with you all over again. Do that the same way you did it the first time. Date her. Woo her. Spend quality time with her. Pay attention to her.

Try having a conversation with her about something that is important to her, but you pick the topic...You know what she enjoys, spend some time learning it from her if you need to.

Spend more time acting and less time reacting.

It didn't get broken in a day and can't be fixed all at once either. 15 hours per week doing recreational things. As you both relax it will be amazing at how easy it becomes to talk about things other than problems. Only address problems as they become due...money, work, other critical issues. Stop trying to fix the marriage and rebuild it from scratch.

To do this you have to let the past go a little. While many things have to be addressed in recovery, you have to get to recovery first. That means she has to want to fix it as badly as you do.

Have you read my story of "The Affair Tree" in my musings thread? It's on one of the later pages. Check it out if you haven't yet. I'd link the exact post, but need to head home from work. I'll check back later. If you don't find it, let me know.

Mark

Thanks,
what I'm hoping to do is to get her to change her IC.
I would like also to do a session with Steve, but her IC thinks that it's more important to take however much time is needed for WW to sort out her "issues" before even addressing the affair. I think this could be catastrophic to our marriage, and is only empowering and enabling WW's fogged out reasoning.
I'm just not sure how to gently broach the subject of her changing counselors WW "likes" her...
It's no wonder why...

NO KIDDING! Her IC is probably feeding right into her fantasy world. I don't know what to do, except maybe call her IC and tell her she needs to get on board with you or you will stop financing the sessions! Money talks! Point her to this site...tell her to educate herself on what works before she councils people in this situation. This is just my opinion, though...? Try to get WW on the phone with Steve or Jennifer. Make it worth your money!

There is no gentle way to approach that sitch. What you do NOT want to do is show any kind of anger or let her drag you into a huge fight about it. Just tell her-"I cannot continue to fund something that doesn't bring us closer together." Do NOT say "I'm not paying for your stupid IC anymore if she doesn't do what I think is best!!"

Good luck!

Thanks.
I guess we'll see how it goes.
I'll keep you posted...

When I did MC with SH, he advised against this approach. His main point was that many times one's "issues" are due to the effects of having a bad M. i.e. address the problems in the M and the "issues" go away or are much easier to handle.

Anyway, what about seeing if she will agree to both her IC and SH. If you don't want to pay for both, then if she sees the IC once a week, offer every other week with her IC and every other week with SH. If she will do that, SH can talk to her about the strategy her IC is suggesting. He makes a compelling arguement and you aren't the one suggesting she stop seeing the IC she "likes."

Sounds logical, so I'm sure she won't like it. Just kidding (not). I'll suggest it. Thanks.

What compels WW to sling so much pain and hatred at me during this?
Is it her own pain of loss of self worth being thrown up?
Does she REALLY blame me for her actions?
What the F...

try,

I've just read through your whole thread and see that one question you've asked has never really been answered. You asked why she feels the need to flirt and get attention from other men to feel sexy.

There is one possible reason which has been a bullseye almost every time I have brought it up on this forum and I hesitate to bring it up because it is a sensitive topic.

I am throwing this out simply as one possibility for YOUR WW's behavior and am not saying this about anyone else who may be reading this thread.

It is not uncommon for women who are victims of childhood sexual abuse to have a need to validate their own sexuality by seeking attention from men.

Do some research on the subject and it may open your eyes.

You remind me of me. The difference is that you have hung in there and been much stronger than I was. I was one of the weak BHs who was afraid to do anything to upset the WW and I caved to all her demands. What did that get me? Divorced, with none of our stuff, jobless, homeless, and separated from my kids. All done to appease the ex. I'm your worst case scenario. You don't want to be me.

2 years later and I'm still trying to undo a lot of that damage and at least get more time with my kids.

Hang in there. It's horribly tough and your WW sounds just like mine. You need to understand that she doesn't care about your feelings and is unable to empathize with you in any way while in the fog.

Finally, why would plan B require separation for your 2 year old? You're not crazy enough to let her move away with him, are you?

Plan B should involve HER moving away while you keep your family, including your child, intact. Don't do what too many men do and pay for it later and leave the child with her while she moves away and leaves you hanging and separated from your child.

You're not thinking clearly. Let us think clearly for you. I didn't follow the advice on this forum and I paid dearly for it.

Good luck.

Thanks for the post.
I'm really sorry your situation hasn't worked out.
It's especially tough this time of year...
BTW, if it gets to Plan B, I will keep my son, though I hope it doesn't come to that.
As a husband and father I have a sacred duty to be the protector for my family, and I do not want to do this to him. I guess my same sense of honor and duty to protect is what she's regurgitating at me as "control".
I sure hope she comes out of the fog.
I wish her IC was helping to extract her head from her a**, rather than lodge it more firmly in there...

Try to stay hopeful.
Peace be with you.

Try...

I completely agree with what rprynne told you about Steve Harley...Do that...Even if it's just for YOU, call him...It will help you immensely...

As far as her blaming you goes...That is a classic WW move...They are professional blameshifters...It ain't a lot of fun to admit that your own choices are what have landed you in turmoil, yanno? I used to think that life just happened to me...I think a lot of waywards believe that way...It is very empowering and healing to finally realize that your choices shape your life...Very motivating to choose wisely then...

Mrs. W

I really hope WW contacts you, Mrs. W.
I think I'll wait until tomorrow after our MC session to bring up the other counselor issue / Steve Harley.

For tonight we have my company holiday party which we actually found a sitter for. Tonight I am the perfect date. Charming, funny, even handsome (assuming she takes advantage of the open bar...just kidding).
I'm finding it easier just since last night to do Plan A. I simply pretend she is my loving Bride (as she always was). When she goes into psychobabble, I think "Charlie Brown's parents" (wah wah wah wahhh), and I can actually chuckle a little to myself.
She actually caught me smiling and laughing a little last night which seemed a little disturbing to her (sad). When she asks what's funny, if it's her, I simply say "oh nothing".
I think I can see how not letting her control the situation if she wants me to get upset can really work to my advantage.
If she starts to realize that I can be happy in spite of her acting like an a**, maybe she'll stop getting what she wants from her behavior and knock it off..
What do you think?

I think you're overthinking it, which is normal at your stage of the game.

Fake it till you make it is your motto. Pretend life is happy and moving along for you just fine.

I use to break down crying all the time at random moments.

Don't lose faith and be strong.

Good for you, try! Learn the reverse babble too...ARM yourself with it so that it's like your second language. Like I wrote to TMTS yesterday, "I'm rubber and you're glue..."

Like I told him, maybe you'll get some of those famous blank wayward stares. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Well, our MC session was snowed out again. We had to re-schedule to next week. Ho Ho Ho...
WW came into the room a little bit ago to let me know that she's going out with a friend of hers next Saturday night for "dancing".
I'm uncomfortable with this, because
1. her "friend" is a former co-worker who still works at OM's job. I fear that he may be going too.
2. She is recently broken up with the father of her child, and is pretty much in grudge mode right now.
3. WW is in entitlement land right now, and I simply don't trust her not to do something stupid.

I don't want her to go. I want her to work on us. maybe go out with me?
I don't know how / if I should bring this up. If we weren't in the situation we're in, I wouldn't have any problem as I have never been jealous or controlling. BUT.

She has become a lying deceitful hurtful vengeful narcissistic pathological inconsiderate selfish self justifying despicable shameful person. Not who I chose to marry and dedicate my life to honoring and protecting... Whew.
Any thoughts out there in pain-land?