Anyone there?

I could use a little coaching or support on how to handle this latest issue...

Need some guidance on Plan A.
I know we're not supposed to talk relationship, but does this include asking about NC with OM?
What about other "promises" to destroy memento's etc that are just lying dormant.
I want to get these things out, but don't want to violate Plan A principle. I've done a pretty bad job of Plan A'ing so far...
Any suggestions?

I really don't like this idea of her going dancing. I'm not sure how to object to something like that in plan A, though? I also don't know how you should ask about NC in plan A.

From my perspective, once I came home I knew I had to shape up or ship out. I'm not understanding her coming home and then breaking NC and engaging in independent behavior.

I hope someone who knows more will help with this question!

I agree with MM on this one. My first instict is to say that even while in Plan A, you are not supposed to let them mow you over and do all the things they want to do in spite of your feelings. It's part of defining your boundaries, while you are filling their lovebank.

But the question is HOW and I really don't know...

Go back and read some of the stuff in Mark's newbie rant post. He's great at this sort of thing. Also read WATS guidelines. Can you call the Harley's?

I don't like it either.
I cant stand the thought of her going out and putting herself out there as if she's availaable to other guys. I don't know if she wants to act on it or what, but I find it troubling. Kinda re-establishes the original theme of this thread.
If she's feeling "controlled", isn't this a ripe opportunity to have too much to drink, do something stupid or vengeful, or simply get taken advantage of by some less than honorable guy? Sorry, but Men are dogs. She, in spite of how cool she thinks she is, and "can handle herself", is naiive and vulnerable...
I wish her light bulb would flicker...

...and another thing.
She has never wanted to go dancing. On the few times that we went out to dance clubs, she didn't really like it, and said things like it wasn't her scene etc. Bear in mind, this was her before the A aliens attacked.
Also troubling.

try,

Why not use the truth? Tell her you don't want her to go dancing. Tell her you feel uneasy about it. Tell her that if she continues to do things that make you feel bad, that you will leave the relationship. Then tell her you made plans to go to a movie and if she wants to come she can. Then shut up, walk away, and see what happens.

Don't debate the appropriateness of your feelings with her, don't debate anything.

This is not being manipulative or controlling. Its not telling her what to do. Its merely the facts.

When she does A, you feel B. You don't like feeling B, so if she keeps doing A, you will have no choice but to leave the situation. Do this for a while, consistently and the light bulb will come on. Either in your head, that your going to have leave the situation, or in hers, hopefully before you have to leave, or after.

Try...

You have mail!

Mrs. W

TTH,

Read rprynne's post again...

and again...

Ask if you don't understand.

Boundaries are not meant to control other's actions, only to define our actions and reactions to their actions.

She does X; you respond with Y. If she does X again, you respond with Z. You escalate your response each time she does X.

But Y and/or Z cannot be shouting, arguing or other negative responses. They must be positive in nature.

If someone is abusing me, I can whine and complain, shout and fight back or let them beat the snot out of me...

Or I can state, "If you abuse me again, I will disengage, go to somewhere safe and remain there till you have yourself under control." If the begin again, I must do as I said or be thought a person who does not mean what they say.

If once more they begin to abuse me, I must have another step, already specified and in place such as "I will leave and go spend the weekend with my brother."

The last step, the one I must be willing to take needs to be, "I will leave and only return if and when you show signs of taking responsibility for getting help to learn to control your abusive tendencies.

While the hope is that the enforcement of the boundaries will result in a change in the other person's behavior, the intent is only to protect me from the abusive behavior. I cannot change the other person's actions. I have to make them want to change them.

You state your feelings about her actions, and spell out what your calculated and calm response will be. It is still her decision as to what her actions will be, therefore you are not attempting to control her, only stating what you will not tolerate in the way of actions by her.


Follow that???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Mark

OK, Mark, so I think maybe you were just giving an example with the "I'll leave" bit, but... leaving is a bad idea because of the abandonment thing plus playing into what the alien wants, isn't it? Honestly, I'm trying to learn too, here, so what do you think his steps should be (Y and Z, so to speak)?

LaLa,

I was citing an example based on abuse, either verbal or physical and not referring to having an affair as the undesirable actions. But the concept is still the same and the enforcements are likely to reach that point eventually; there will just be more intervening steps than Y, Z and Q.

But the idea can be applied to the hurtful things a WS says and does beyond just the sum of the affair. For example, if a WS says hurtful things during an outburst of fog babble, the BS does not have to defend against it, merely to withdraw from it. You don't have to make them stop, just not stand and listen to it and thereby continue to be hurt by it.

This is what so many of us do that is wrong in the very beginning. We argue with a WS. This almost never works. Our attempts to educate them, show then how their reasoning is flawed and try to refute the hurtful accusations they are making against us are ALL self defeating. They ALL drive the WS further away and ALL have the exact opposite effect we desire.

A typical BS mindset is, "If I could just make her see what she is doing..." or "If I could just get through to her..." To quote our president:"Not gonna happen..."

We need to focus on the micro while dealing with the macro. (Look at the minutia while keeping the big picture in view)

What makes Dr Harley's method different than most is that he does not attempt to fix all the things that are wrong with the marriage as first and primary concern. Instead he focuses on what brought the couple together in the first place and what it will be that will keep them together into the future if it is going to happen. That is, he concentrates on rebuilding the love they have for each other.

To that end, he makes a priority out of meeting ENs and avoiding LBs. Because, his basic idea and the beginning for all the rest of this is that love is a response to stimulus. (sorry to take the romance out of it for ya...) This response can be created by doing certain things repeatedly for a sustained amount of time. Meeting ENs adds to the balance in the LB$ and avoiding LBs lowers the overhead on our account.

This is Plan A.

Plan B is about boundary enforcements. Once all efforts to negotiate the end of the affair are exhausted, the BS steps out of the drama and stops allowing the WS to cross the boundary of causing them pain. We just don't stand there and take it any more. Thus Plan B protects the BS from the WS. It is not to punish the WS. It is not to get even or seek revenge, only to preserve any remaining love units they WS has left in the BS's LB$.

So Plan A is not about fixing the marriage and Plan B is not about punishing the WS. Both Plan A and Plan B are about the BS doing specific things in an effort to bring about a desired result, but in one case the desired result is the WS falling in love with the BS again and in the other the desired result is the BS not losing all of their remaining love for the WS.

So a BS in Plan A must Meet ENs, Avoid Love Busters and have no expectations of any predetermined result at each step along the way because it will be unmet expectations that takes away the hope and stamina required to do an effective Plan A for any length of time. And any Plan A shorter than about 3 months has little consequence on a Love Bank that is not accepting deposits.

So a BS has to attempt to make the time WS spends with them enjoyable enough that they long for more and at the same time begin to establish boundaries that state clearly that a third person will not be allowed in the marriage. (This is what is meant by not being a doormat, BTW). All the while this is occurring, the BS has to monitor their own love balance for the WS to prevent a complete draining of the account so that Plan B, the ultimate boundary enforcement of separation, is begun, there is enough left for the BS to bother with reconciling when the A burns out on it's own...in about 2 years or so...

But intermediate steps need to be taken along the way. A boundary of no third party interference (NC) should be the goal, but smaller boundaries can be attempted as well. You can scream at me all you want, but I don't have to stand here and listen to it. Or you can threaten to take the kids away, but I can get a lawyer to draft a LSA that says you can't even see them without a court appointed supervisor.

My boundary is that I will not let you scream at me. You can scream if you want, but I won't listen to it.

My boundary is that you may not run away with the kids. I will seek legal action to prevent it.

Two issues, two boundaries, two enforcements, one just ignoring the person violating my boundaries, the other seeking legal action to prevent a violation of my boundary.

This is where people go wrong BTW. They seek legal enforcements of minor boundaries. Thus some file for divorce before looking for a way to save the marriage.

When a WS refuses to begin NC, BTW, it is really an attempt at boundary enforcement. They don't want to give up OP and so try to negotiate a boundary that allows them to keep OP in the loop. The problem is that this is not a valid or ethical boundary to most in our society and thus the tension of the WS trying to have both and the BS trying to stop the affair. All of the wrangling, shouting, cursing and threatening (including threatening to leave) is an attempt by the WS to get the BS to accept their invalid boundary of keeping OP in their life while remaining married.

Mark

Mark (almost called you Marky- my bro's name is Mark and that's what I call him), <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for another fantastic, enlightened explanation!!