I was the same way for a while. I would come to work and all I can think about was my WW, the A, the breakdown of our R and that she wants to leave. Over time and some work on my part this has subsided. To Lala's point, let him know your state of mind at all times, as this will be comforting to him. What I am having the hardest time with is that I have no idea what she is thinking. Letting him know what you think and feel would go a long way in my books, let’s hope he reacts to it in the same manner I would.

I think you're doing better than you think you are, keep it up.

Sorry...some people may say I'm a smarta$$ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> (can you IMAGINE <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />).


Let him go do his thing. You cannot control how he feels or what he does. You do know what DOESN'T work, though, so don't go down that road! Noone responds well to that kind of thing. It's human nature to pull away from people who try to cling to us desperately, and human nature to draw closer to people who are confident and independant. Just be careful that he doesn't see you as too independant, b/c this may be a trigger for him. It's a tightrope, I know, but you can do it! You are very in tune to him, so just go with your instincts.

You are in control of how your day goes, RIM, not his. If you don't want it to slide downhill, then don't let it. If he doesn't want you to go, then go work out after your class. The key here is to be completely transparent to him. Have you offered to let him see your cell phone records or anything of that nature so that he can feel safe again? This should be your idea, not his. Don't make him ask for what you should be offering freely...Ask him if there is anything else he can think of that will help him feel more confidant that you are maintaining NC. Make yourself an open book...I think you will be surprised with the results!

TMTS--

I guess my question is... so, when he starts the doubting and backsliding and "living in the past"... is this an 'appropriate' response, or is this going to make him think I don't care??

Usually he starts with fog babble... "I don't know if I want this anymore", "I don't know if this is worth it", "I don't know what I want", "I don't know if I'm IN love with you anymore", blah blah blah... I respond neutrally. I don't try to "convince" him otherwise anymore. Its just pointless and frustrating.

So-- I will let him know that I'm here for him if he wants to talk, that I love him, that I really want to help him, but he has to LET me. (he won't, and he'll say he doesn't need it...). And then just let it go at that. Or does that make it seem like I don't care? I guess my concern is that, the pattern over the past few months, and really over the course of our relationship is that I am ALWAYS the one to extend the olive branch (or at least a good 95% of the time...), and that usually once he gets upset, I beg and plead until he reconsiders. This is a pattern that I DO NOT want to continue in our marriage... but I'm afraid in changing this pattern NOW, that he is going to perceive this as me not caring anymore (which is not true, its just I can't beg and plead and follow him around like a little lost puppy dog when he gets upset anymore...he needs to learn to deal with his feelings better himself too...)

Is this an acceptable approach? If he starts babbling, and reverse babble won't even stop him, can I take a "time out" for my own sanity?? I want to help him, I do, but he thwarts EVERY effort of mine and it turns into desperation on my part. I guess I just feel like I lose total control of the situation... and I have NO IDEA how best to deal with him when he gets in these moods. If I should "let him go" since that is what he says he wants, or try to "help" even though he claims he doesn't want it (but I think that may be a passive-aggressive claim, he's "testing" me to see if I'll still put in the effort... that is my opinion). Arg... and I feel like no matter what I choose to do when he gets in these moods, it is ALWAYS the wrong thing. If I make the effort, he says he just wanted to be left alone. If I leave him alone, he says I'm not trying. I CAN'T WIN!!!

So-- TMTS-- what made you want to help yourself out of those thoughts?? I mean, at this point I feel like he's HOLDING onto them for some reason-- maybe to punish me and get what he wants (I tend to turn on the charm and everything all the way when he gets this way...and really try my hardest). I feel like he's not working WITH me to try to help him... that he wants to be miserable for some reason. I'm not expecting these thought to just "poof!" disappear... but it really seems like (to me at least) he brings them back at whim, and lets them ruin a lot of things and opportunities for us. And that he is doing very little on his part to help us out of this cycle.. he sees it as my job... but I can't do it alone!!!

We'll see if he texts or calls me after his appointment. I have a feeling I'm not going to see him until very late tonight.

Oh-- and I also have a feeling I'll get a total lukewarm response about cards tonight. He'll probably turn it around on me and say "its up to you". At which point-- what do I do?? And once again, no matter what I decide, it will be wrong. I go, and he'll say he needed a night alone. I don't go, and he'll throw that in my face as well as some "what were you doing while I was at cards".

Sometimes I just feel like I can't win....

RIM

Lala--

I have change my cell phone number so that OM does not know it anymore and cannot contact me even if he wanted to. I have changed all the passwords on all of my accounts to a common one he knows, so he can snoop at his leisure. And, he is the primary account holder on my cell phone, so he can see all the texts and calls at any time. I have nothing to hide. I've told him this. I am being as transparent as possible. My problem is, he accuses me (and somewhat accurately) of finding "ways" to get around this and contact OM. Yes, I will admit I did do some of this when I was in some false NC's in the beginning. I was creative in contacting him. But I'm not doing that anymore, and I realize the damage that creativity did. Although, hubby has accused me of some pretty wild ways of trying to contact OM that were never true in the first place, but he doesn't believe me. That is my problem... he gets these ideas in his head and just believes them as fact and no matter what proof I show or what I say, he just doesn't believe me. Sigh. Its only my own fault.

I've noticed he's been "trusting" me more and checking up on me less recently though. I know it is going to take a long time to re-build that trust. I've gone as far as calling him if I get stuck in traffic and am going to be 10 minutes late, just so he doesn't panic for those 10 minutes. I pretty much inform him of my every move, all day long anymore. He can check up on me all he wants. I have NOTHING to hide anymore.

RIM

I believe you that you have nothing to hide...the point is it doesn't seem like HE does...YET. This will take time and complete transparency on your part as you know. Do not wait for him to snoop...hand it to him. Tell him you'll get a voice recorder for your car. How did you "creatively" contact the OM b4? That's the key, IMO. That's why he keeps bringing up all the old stuff. My DH did this continuously, and I thought I was being just GREAT about NC and all of the other stuff (flowers, cards, etc). But, the change in MINDSET is what you are going for here. Humble yourself without grovelling. There is a difference.

About tonight, if he tries to turn it around on you, say- "I would love to be with YOU, but if you need time alone, I'll understand. I just want you to be happy." Then gage his response. If he still leaves it up to you then go with him. Keep things light and do not get into R or A talks if you can help it.

You are right, though, you have to stop that pattern. You need to find other ways to show him you care and are being sincere. The old ways do not work anymore (if they ever did). You may need some MC for this...would he agree to speak to the Harleys?

Lala--

I usually sent text messages via the computer, so they couldn't be traced. I also used a friend's cell phone once or twice to call OM rather than my own. But, I spend the vast majority of my time anymore with him, and have sworn off all of my friends from the A era... so I'm not doing that anymore. Those are hard to prove though. He found this out and knows how to track that now. Other than that, he came up with some really odd ways he THOUGHT I was using to contact OM, but I never was?! (ie, he thought that I was hiding my car in OM's garage so he wouldn't know when I was there and when I wasn't... that wasn't true, I never did that... and how the heck am I supposed to prove THAT one?!!

And, as I suspected, I got blown off for coffee. He made an excuse that he had to go into the office for work, blah blah blah, but I know he could have made it work if he really wanted to. But I didn't say anything, at all. And I told him what you suggested about poker tonight... that I know he had been stressed out recently, and I just wanted him to be happy, so let me know what he would like. He said he wasn't sure if they were even playing poker at all tonight anyways. So, we'll see.

OH!!! And-- I waited until now to warm up my lunch because I was waiting to see if he was planning on meeting me. We used to leave each other notes in our lunches all the time for the other person to find. Well, I had been doing it for him a ton recently... and I haven't gotten a single note at all up until TODAY! I opened my lunch box... and lo and behold... A NOTE!! saying he hoped I was having a good day, and good luck with my class, and he signed it "love". (although usually we put either Love always and forever or Love and kisses, which he won't sign anything with anymore for some reason... but hey, I'll take it!). So that made me happy.

He seemed to be in a better mood when I just talked to him. Joking around with me again (even though he did blow me off for coffee) and not quite so despondent. So, maybe he is getting better at controlling his own feelings. And maybe the key is to just let him go... and be here for him when he gets back, even if he doesn't feel like talking about it.

Looking up a bit!! I'll keep you updated. I am going to eat lunch and then I have a class to teach....

RIM

Let's start by changing our mindset to the above. I suggest we call it Blizzard babble. The difference is that these are all fear responses based on real feelings. Unlike fog babble which is based on fantasy feelings. IMO.

Ok now that we've established that, Lala's suggestions are bang on. IMO. Anything that will ease the blizzard of doubts and fears in his mind will be helpful. His ego has suffered much damage and he is still riding the roller coaster so give it time.



I still get them (Ask Lala, she'll tell you. They need to lift me out of it weekly, but it used to be daily). But what did it was the acceptance that I couldn't change her mind for her. I can only change me, so I've started doing that by one recognizing, acknowledging, accepting and changing what led to my part in the breakdown of my M, and lately I've been rediscovering my faith. I my head I still am very insecure and get into bouts of complete hopelessness, but I am better able to rationalize the fear, push it aside and focus on the plan. It's not easy but when this is all said and done I will be a better person for it.

It's a struggle because my WW is convinced that we are through and we need to move on with separate lives. So the fact that you are still together and working on things is a very good sign.

RIM, I can relate to what your husband is going through as the BS. It took me a long, long time (almost 3 years) before "those thoughts" moved from the front of my mind to the back to finally... gone. It's really hard for a BS to not.go.there. When we do, we feel the pain all over again. What helped me is that when I was in that place (and I would also withdraw) my DH would say "what are you thinking?" and I would tell him. He would sit there and take it. Then he would quietly say, "I understand. Come here. Let me hold you." That's what worked for me, as a woman.

Before we starting doing that, I would basically stew and then erupt. DH was blindsided several times. LOL. He realized that I needed to talk about things when they came up. It was easier on him!

For a man, I imagine he would want you to let him know that it's safe to express what he's feeling. Just to get it out. Cause once it's out there (at least for me) I always felt better. Eventually, I didn't feel that need because I knew he knew and we were both working on things.

Now we seldom talk about what happened. There's no need. He has proven himself trustworthy again and I know he loves me.

OK TMTS-- re-naming it a "blizzard" is fair enough. You are right, it is not really a "fog", I guess I just dubbed it that after I realized a lot of what he says sounds scarily similar to things I said in my fog... but you are right, it is different and does have a different basis, and a much more legitimate one. So, "blizzard" it is from here on out!

His poker night is on for tonight, and he just sent me a playful text message, so that is a good sign. I said I'd text him when I got out of class, and he could let me know then what he wanted me to do. So I guess we'll see. I'm really comfortable with either one, and don't really have a preference (going to poker, or not going and going to the gym). I really think things have been much better for the past few weeks with us, even if he hasn't opened up yet and hasn't made any commitment to us, hopefully we are working in that direction. I just don't want to get my hopes up too much and get blindsided though. I am afraid of that too...

I think I need to get you to talk to my Hubby, haha. I guess when you know you've hurt someone so very much, you want to do whatever you can to make it better, make it go away for that person. But sometimes you can't... and that to me is very frustrating, and something I am coming to terms with.

I'm sorry your WW is still convinced you are through. I didn't realize that she was still on that... that must be very hard for you. I'm so sorry, and I really hope that she comes around and gives you guys a chance.

Thanks for all the support Lala and TMTS... its really been great, has made me a better person, and my marriage is benefitting for it. Thanks so much, and TMTS... I have to go dig your thread out so I can help you out when you need it, because you've certainly been very helpful to me!

Have a great night guys, I probably won't be back on until tomorrow morning (but I may check in quickly tonight...).

RIM

Hi princessmeggy-- thanks for your thoughts on this. I guess my problem, probably since he's a man and reverting to those old stereotypes-- is that he can't, and won't, talk about it. He says "he doesn't need my help" and "he has to do this alone" and "he can't trust anyone". He literally REFUSES to open up. And if I continue to pry... he EXPLODES, and screams and yells and LBs up and down... and pretty horribly. Not good for either of us. I don't think he's at a point yet where we CAN talk about it-- civilly. I would even take upset, or angry from him... but the explosions I am talking about are NOT pretty and not just a simple expression of anger towards me.

So, getting him to actually open up seems to be a problem...

This past Friday, he was having a rough day, so I suggested we meet for dinner and that we just spend time together and actually NOT talk about it at all. I promised him I wouldn't bring it up, or ask him his thoughts or "badger" him (he says I try to badger him...really I just want to know what he's thinking!). And I didn't. And, he was withdrawn, but there was no fighting, no bad stuff. It was an OK night, not one of our best, but definitely not one of our worst.

I guess my issue is that we can't keep sweeping this under the rug forever... at some point we WILL have to deal with it to get past it... but I guess there's no point in pushing that issue until he's committed to the relationship. For now I just keep trying to show him that we can have the relationship that we both want... that I am here for him... etc, etc.

I do want to know what he's thinking, but he also needs to learn to express it in a way that isn't so destructive. And he's expressed even before this situation a lot of times he would just clam up rather than expressing things just because he didn't "want to say something he'd regret later". But the problem was, that we'd never be able to discuss those things later on either... he'd just want to forget they happened. In a way, he kinda needs some anger management counseling, even outside of this situation, but this situation has made it 1345456456456 times worse, of course....

RIM

Hi RIM,

If you could get him on here that would be great. Not that I would be the best one to help him out seeing that I'm desperate to be given the chance he is having, but I would certainly listen and let him know what I'm going through.
On top of that there are so many here that could help him process this. Anger management...stress management, there's something I can relate to. It's a man thing again, we get so caught up in this manly man role that we shut out the person we love most, then one day she tells us she's found someone else and is not in love with us anymore. This would be the message I would be trying to get through to him. Wake up and listen now pal, before her heart moves on.

I have a good feeling about you two. Give it time though (Like I'm one to talk about that concept...you'll understand when you read my thread).

You'll both be in my prayers tonight.

I wish I could get hubby to post here. He says "he doesn't need other people's opinions". Although, the other night, when he was on his work laptop, I was posting on here. He asked me if "I was posting on those marriage sites again", and I said yes. He seemed somewhat interested, but I didn't push it at that time. I figure maybe he'll come around to it in time. And since he knows I'm posting here, he may actually be reading all of this (I'm sure it wouldn't take him long to figure out what thread is "ours") anyways since you can read this all without actually posting and joining.

I went to poker with him last night (after my class I asked him what he wanted me to do. He said he didn't care (I knew that was coming...), and I said that I didn't want to invade his guy's night if he wanted a night alone, and he said "I wouldn't be invading". I took that as an invitation-- and went out to meet him. I actually ended up winning (ha!). Afterwards, he made the comment that he didn't think I'd come, that he thought I'd blow him off for the gym. Hmm... oh well, guess he was wrong <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> He did seem a little more distant last night at poker, but that might have just been because he was with "the guys", haha-- and I'm not really a regular at poker. (and I won't be, because my class that I'm taking is actually much longer, but last night was just the first night so it only lasted about a half hour... every other week by the time it is over I won't have time to make it to poker...)

We didn't get home until almost 11, and then stayed up in bed talking until 1- about his job and stuff. So-- he set HIS alarm clock for 6:45-- and lo and behold, when it went off this morning, he turned it off in his sleep, rolled over, and went back to sleep (it didn't even really wake me up-- we are both heavy sleepers). Well, I woke up at 9:07.... I teach a class at a major university that begins at 9:30... AHHH!! [censored]! I literally threw on jeans and a sweatshirt, brushed my teeth, and RAN out the door, without even showering or even washing my face. I made it to class JUST in time. But, it was kinda funny-- me and hubby were BOTH trying to take blame for our getting out of bed late... he was saying it was his fault for turning the alarm off... me saying it was my fault for keeping us up so late talking. Haha. I thought that was kinda cute. Usually it is the other way around, both of us trying to pin the blame on the other person... it was nice that it was the other way around, fighting over who GOT to take the blame, as if it was some sort of prize! (oh, and I am TOTALLY not allowed to wear jeans and a sweatshirt to work... but oh well..)

I am meeting him for lunch today, and then he is going to make one of my favorite meals for me for dinner (he's a VERY VERY VERY good cook! I'm lucky!)-- spicy ginger chicken and vegetables. mmmm.

Just wanted to update you on last night!

So, hopefully things are going a bit better again.

Perhaps instead of working toward getting him on MB, what if you read him occasional excerpts from some of the posts here? For instance, reading posts from some of the BH when they write about how they have been impacted or the difficulties they are having - could you say:

"Hubby, listen to this 'insert quoted post from BH on MB forum' - does that describe how you feel/have felt?"

Or, "Hubby, I was reading someone today who said, "insert sentence or two from BH's post from MB" and I thought that might be similar to what you have experienced."

When my husband and I had emotionally detached from each other, one of the things we did that seemed safe, was to discuss variouos marital situations that we had read about from different marriage forums. It was a way to talk "relationship" without it being about *our* relationship. It was actually one of the things that got us talking again and it gave us an opening to actually talk and listen to each other about something other than the mindless "how our day went" or {shudder} another one of those talks about *us* that often went nowhere except downhill.

In fact, you don't even have to pick out situations that compare to yours - talking about the ones that you find interesting and that aren't similar to yours enables you to have conversations that don't enter your own danger zones.

What do you think?

Hmm... graplin, that is a good idea <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I just might go ahead and give that a try...

Thanks!

I met hubby for lunch today... he's been really stressed out at work, so I drove to meet him for lunch...

This morning I got an email from a friend inviting us to join her and her fiance and some of his friends on a ski trip in VT the weekend after Valentine's day. I was really excited about it, because this was something hubby and I had talked about doing for a long time, but just never got together. So, of course, I told him about it, and he replied with some excuses about not knowing if he could get off work. I slipped a little there, because I am really sensitive to him "choosing" work over me, because I felt like he really left me behind for a year and a half and cared more about his job than he did me back before the A started (not an excuse, I know...)... and I said something about being able to work it out if he told them early enough and, that really he'd only have to take one day off (Friday). Well, he lost it in the restaurant (I went to meet him for lunch)-- and said something (very angrily) about how "he suggested we go on vacations before, but I never wanted to, so why should he blow off work for me now". I am just SOOO tired of him using the past as an excuse to make himself and me miserable now. I really can't take it anymore. And I don't know how to respond to those. I mean, really, how are you supposed to respond to that?? In our 7 years of being together, we have been on ONE (YES ONLY ONE) vacation ALONE. And that was our honeymoon. We've been plenty of places, but they are always as a group. And I love my hubby, but he's definately a "life of the party" has to be the center of attention kinda person... and most of the time, I feel like I'm not even sure why I'm there... because he just takes over the whole room and totally ignores me or the fact that I'm even there... another sore spot for me...

Its just so stupid.. and I'm so tired of the merry-go-round but don't know how to get off of it. He just insists on doing stupid stuff like this (not going on this vacation, even though it is something we both wanted to do) just because "I did it in the past". He claims he suggested vacations while I was in my fog, but that I turned him down because of work, therefore he has a "right" to do the same thing back to me now.

I am really frustrated over his reaction to the vacation, and am EXTREMELY frustrated with him doing/saying things that are not conducive to rebuilding-- or are just outright destructive (and things that make BOTH of us miserable!!) and using "well you did it before!" as his excuse. But I can't make him stop. And I don't even know WHAT to say to that. It is so stupid and counter productive. And I'm REALLY tired of feeling "punished". He claims he's not "punishing" me, but I really feel that way. And I've told him that. He just says "he's not doing it on purpose". It is REALLY frustrating. I am tired of him using my past behavior as an excuse for his crappy behavior now. Its not like we both didn't make mistakes, and I'm tired of having ALL of the blame pinned on me... and him accepting NO responsibility whatsoever. I mean, where does this stop?? So when he decides he's "punished" me enough and is going to stop using hte past as an excuse... then what, I get to use how he acted now as an excuse in the future??!?!?

I feel like he's sort of reverted back to the "old person" he was before-- the person that over the past year he said over and over he never wanted to be again (after he found out about my A). But that is who he is again. A workaholic that puts his job before everything else, and who is quick to anger, and thinks very little about me and our relationship. It is disheartening, because I honestly believe he could change, that we could make this work together, that he never would be that same selfish person he was for that year and a half again... but he really is that person again. Its so disheartening. I am a different person now, more like the person I was before all this A stuff started, but stronger... and a better person for it. He swore over and over he didn't want to be that person, but that is who he is...again.

I guess the vacation comment really got to me today. I am just so tired of being "punished" and for him doing hurtful things JUST BECAUSE I hurt him before-- doing what he considered to be the same thing. But I don't know what to do about it....

The rest of our lunch went decent. I'd say, overall, things have been going better recently than they had been in the past. He even left me a note in my lunch box yesterday for me (we used to do that all the time, and even though I leave him notes all the time still now, he hadn't left me a note in a very, very, very long time). So, slowly, he's coming around. I just need to somehow convince him that this "punishment" and holding out thing is just stupid for both of us.....

I haven't done anything really outside of plan A, other than I did get a little upset when he IMMEDIATELY responded to my suggestion of the vacation with an excuse about work-- I did get a little upset. I just can't handle that same hurt and pain I felt for a year and a half again... constantly being second place to his job, to everyone he works with... to him not listening to me AT ALL or paying attention to my feelings at all... him upsetting me very greatly and then just walking out the door and going to work (all the while knowing how upset I was... but not bothering to call or anything...). And he knew all of this at the time... I told him over and over again how upset and unhappy I was... he just didn't listen. And I feel like that is where we are headed now...

I want to make up for my mistakes.. none of this is an excuse for what I did... but there's certain things I am ULTRA sensitive to... to hurts that built up over so much time... and I know he has the same, and I just don't see the point in adding to them anymore... its time for all of that to be over... but he won't agree to that. He says he doesn't "try" to hurt me, and doesn't do it on purpose, but its like he's totally stopped trying and

I hate to say this, and I'm probably going to get a big 2 x4 for it, and probably need one right now (I'm crying at work)-- but I think I liked him better about this time last year... and I wasn't even living at home then....

All the original problems, they are all back.

Staying with plan A... I'm going to go to the gym after work to blow off some steam. I need it. I'm glad I'm at work right now because I'm a mess... and I couldn't handle doing a very good plan A if I was at home right now.

Tired of feeling "punished"--

RIM

You look at him calmly and say (sweetly) "I thought we were both working towards being stronger as a couple. I would love to have this time with you. It would be wonderful if you could tell them ahead of time...all you need is Friday off." PERIOD!

Yes, you both behaved badly. But you are trying to move past these things now, and acting like the poor little victim who is being punished doesn't help a darn thing. I know...that's why my H and I were spinning our wheels for MONTHS. I thought I was just being a PEACH and doing EVERYTHING that a person could possibly do...so why did he continue to "punish" me, even though he said he wasn't trying to? Because I didn't GET IT. As much as I thought I did, I didn't. I was really just justifying my behavior based on the condition of our R b4 I cheated. Plain and simple. Which is exactly what you are doing right now.

Um...the only person you can change is YOU. If you do that and he still doesn't respond after a while, then you'll have to decide AT THAT POINT whether to continue the relationship.

YOU don't get to decide when it's over for him, RIM. You just don't. But I can almost guarantee you that once you do really STOP playing the victim, he will stop reacting to you like one.

The bottom line here is...you both made mistakes-HUGE ones. But you have decided to try and make this work. That means, you let go of all that POOR ME junk (which is not productive to you on the inside, either) and start focusing on making him feel safe. Otherwise, you're fighting a losing battle.

YOU MUST BE THE BIGGER PERSON HERE...DO THE WORK...MAKE THE CHANGES. And no you are not free of the fog yet- nor will you be for quite a while. You have only maintained NC for a couple months, for goodness sake! Once you make the necessary changes, GROW as a person on the inside, ACCEPT your part of the blame (which does not include.."the reason I cheated is cuz he treated me bad") and MAKE HIM FEEL SAFE TO BE WITH YOU....then see what happens.

If after ALL of that (and we're talking months, here, no instant gratification), you still feel like he will never be the kind of person you want to be with, then let him go. If you keep spinning your wheels, you will drive yourself crazy. If you D now and move along, you will repeat the same patterns anyways. So why not DO THE WORK now, with your H, and see what happens?

Hi Lala--

So, I don't know how to do this nifty little quote thing... but... you said:

" "I thought we were both working towards being stronger as a couple...<snip>"

But the thing is... WE AREN'T. He has NOT committed to fixing this, in fact he says over and over again "he doesn't KNOW if he wants to fix it" and that "he's not putting in the effort towards fixing it until he know if this is what he wants". So, yes, we are spinning wheels. But NOT because of me. And If I said something like that to him, he would say EXACTLY what I just said he would above (because I've tried saying these things to him!). So yes, spinning wheels, yes. But MOST CERTAINLY not because I'm putting us there!

And I don't really think I'm playing a victim, or that I haven't accepted responsibility for my actions and don't understand either. He can be fearful of opening up, angry, whatever that happens to be. But, there's an appropriate way to express that, and an inappropriate way.

At this point, he's using his resentment over all of this to punish and control me-- and ruin opportunities for us. We ARE NOT and WERE NEVER working towards being a stronger couple. I am.. for BOTH OF US, right now.

I don't think I'm vicimizing myself. I am FULLY ready to accept the consequences of my behavior... but there's a point where you aren't accepting consequences, your past behavior is just being used to guilt you and control you. And sometimes that is how I feel. That he uses my past behavior to guilt and control me. And it works! ******, of course it works. I feel terrible for it. But you know what, letting it do that makes me feel worse afterwards. Its not fair of him to do that. He's being VERY manipulative anymore when it comes to this. He knows what buttons to push (I've known him for 12 years now or something! He should) and he does it to get his way when he wants. And acts like he's entitled to right now (and outright says he is!).

I'm not being the victim. HE is. He is taking what has happened to us, and letting using my guilt towards all of it to punish me. And in the end, he doesn't feel any better after that, and I certainly don't.

I do get it, I really do. He is the one that needs to get on track, before it is too late... the LB from him need to stop... the ones he KNOWS have been problems for a long time.

And I know I can't control him, I can only control me. But-- that still doesn't help me decide how the heck it is best to respond to his constant excuses of "well you did it to me, so now I'm allowed to do it to you". It makes no sense and is a stupid immature argument that is going to destroy us if he doesn't ditch it in relatively short order.

And the above response doesn't help because we aren't working together, we never were, and THAT is what he'd say to me if I said that-- because its true. It is ME and ONLY ME trying to save this.

RIM

Feelings follow actions. And your words will betray your mindset. I will give you some quotes from the night I, too, felt like I was sick and tired of being punished by my H for "the past."

Mrs. W said...


You can continue down your current, wayward thinking path, or you can accept the advice of ones who have been where you are and felt how you feel. Your choice. Let me remind you of what you are saying...

Isn't it? Really?


ONCE AGAIN...Your words betray your mindset...and he knows it. So what if he's trying to use it against you! You are putting it out there for him to use! Change yourself, and you will change your situation. I have been there, very recently in fact...and you can be just as pi$$ed at me as you want, I'm just trying to help you. Been there, done that! Your choice!

It is much easier when your H is actually TRYING though-- rather than acting and speaking much like a WS himself-- that same alien being, those same hurtful phrases.

And, I remind you, he's had 3 EA's himself. Three. Two WAY BEFORE I ever did anything, at all. That he never told me about. And that may have also been PA, but I'll never know, and that is something I have to live with. And am living with. I've accepted I'll never know, and he's never going to tell me. I've accepted that.

And, through ALL of this, I have Plan A'ed up a storm. I told him that WORD FOR WORD what you said I should say. And you know what he said to me? "I am not putting in the effort for this" and also that I didn't "deserve" to go anywhere with him because in his book he's entitled to do right back to me what I did to him. THAT is what I have a problem with!!! HE'S ENTITLED TO DO TO ME WHAT I DID TO HIM??!?! (and he LITERALLY SAYS THAT!) Can you imagine how the world would be if everyone adopted that thought about things that were unjustly did to them!?!? It is punishment, pure and simple.


TO HIM, all he sees is plan A. THIS IS WHERE I VENT. THIS IS WHERE MY HURT AND TEARS COME OUT. Not to him. And by "slipped a little" I meant, all I said to him was "I'm sure you could take a few days off if you really wanted to" in a sort of short tone. THAT WAS IT. no, that isn't plan A. But jesus, I'm HUMAN! I've been so proud of my plan A...

That is what I am in, PLAN A. We aren't in recovery, we never were. HE DOESN'T WANT TO BE. For all intensive purposes, I am sort of like the BS here, putting up with manipulative hurtful behavior that doesn't make much sense at all. And he's not putting in the effort, AND WILL ADMIT IT. And will admit how selfish he's being-- AND HE DOESN'T CARE. He'll say it. Outright, 100% say that-- to my face. HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO WORK ON RECOVERY WITH THAT?

I would rather take 'you f'ed OM' (which btw, I never did anyways...) than these f'ing MIND GAMES he's playing. He's not trying AT ALL. He's just CAKE EATING. Eating up all of my effort, and not making an OUNCE of it himself, in terms of the marriage or otherwise-- and he's got a list of excuses for each time he acts like this.

HE EVEN HAS EXCUSES FOR HIS OWN A's now. They are ALL MY FAULT according to him. I am not acting like the WS anymore... he is! So much so, people have actually suggested I look for signs of his own A.... which I haven't found, but he's not dumb, he's a computer programmer, he can hide this ****** better than i can....

Its just a rough day... he's been so mean to me... so mean. You have no idea how he can be... how hurtful he can be, JUST FOR THE SAKE OF HURTING ME.

How can you make excuses for that?!?! Hurting someone JUST FOR THE SAKE OF HURTING THEM. I had no excuse, and he doesn't now. Period. There is no excuse for doing this to ANYONE, ever.

This has been the probelm all along, though. It is not a cut and dry case of BS/WS. You are both, well, BOTH. I am operating under the assumption that you are the one in Plan A, which you say you are, and that you are trying to change yourself and let go of your justifications for doing what YOU did, not him. And BTW-I didn't, "f the OM, either." But none of that matters.

You came here looking for help, and that's what I am trying to give you, FWW to FWW. He is to blame for his EAs, or PAs or whatever they were. Not you. But the ends (your A) don't justify the means. You are working at a disadvantage here because he did it, too.

This isn't about his effort, though. Plan A is about YOUR effort, with NO expectations of him. It is difficult in any situation, but especially when both parties are at fault (by having As of any kind).

If he is hurting you, and you feel it is vicious, then go to Plan B before things degenerate any further. This is also why some of your first posters said to "cut your losses and start over." You did not want to do that. You asked how to change this current course of anger and resentment and to do that, you must decide if the work is worth it...if the M is worth it. If it is, then you need to realize that Plan A is done with NO expectations of the WS. Regardless of what he did or how he is acting or the things he is saying to you. If you feel there is too much hurt and that he will continue to hurt you, then do what you can control...which is Plan B. OR more of Plan A with no expectations from him. Only you know when you've had enough.