rim

none of what you are saying makes sense...

you are like the saying rearranging the deck chairs while the titantic is sinking....

there is NO great shock that he may be lying about vicodin use....
that is totally seperate from lying about going to a strip joint or what ever his other lies are....

people who mis-use alcohol and drugs are usually in denial about the use...and so ofcourse they lie and downplay it..

do you want to help your husband with this issue...or do want to go after him for lying about it...

the lies aren't the issue it's his health..

you gonna go to his friend and label him a drug and alcohol abuser...with out seeking support and treatment for him..

what quit or else...


Something needs to change-- and NOW

BALONEY
unrealistic
untrue

lots of things need to change...but change takes time..

My boundary is no vicodin.. UNLESS IT IS MEDICALLY NECESSARY

your husband did have a procedure...

he does have pain...
NOT yours or anyonese to judge...

three scripts of vic for such a procedure does seem like a lot to me...
wonder what this docs typical plan looks like with joe shmoe and the same procedure

cause he could become the worlds most popular doc
I know drug seekers who would gladly give a toe nail or two for pain meds...


If I stopped all relationship for a month-- truthfully, I think he'd put himself up on the internet again as single. Start calling up girls. He has an admiration EN that is VERY VERY high... and if he's not getting that at home, he immediately goes out and seeks it from other people

what does lightening up on the bad relationship talk
we have to fix this
you have to this
we need to do this etc etc...
have to do with NOT meeting his needs..

I am talking about zipping the lip about relationship stuff and just enjoying completely one another...

what would THAT look like...

ARK

I wouldn't put this line in there. It could be conceived as threatning. But the rest is open honest, and friendly.

Your other letter, yes I will read it and comment on it for you.

Oh-- I misinterpreted you Ark-- we have been zipping relationship talk and enjoying each other. Other than his laments of his doesn't know what he wants, etc etc (which I just stopped responding to all together other than "I'm sorry"-- really what else is there to say to that??) We haven't had a single relationship talk. I haven't told him at all he needs to fix anything-- even when yesterday he stepped on his soap box and told me all about how he had fixed all his inner demons and was a better person in a better place (clearly). I let it go. Not A SINGLE WORD. I will admit, I rolled my eyes, but we were talking on IM, so he didn't see that :-P

I don't want to go after him for lying about it at this point. I was merely pointing that out as a part of the entire issue also. At this point, the drugs and his health are paramount. But you can lead a horse to water....

And yes, he had a toe nail removed. And yes, I'm sure it was painful. But, um, he's walking around just fine, with no bandaids, and truthfully, it looks just like a normal toe right now, sans a toenail. He even says it hardly hurts at all anymore. So tell me where the viodin is necessary at this point? And-- he has a LONG history of getting "upset" and then going inot these binges where he takes all these pills and drinks a lot.

And seeking help and support for him?!?! DEAR GOD, HOW?? Seriously, if you can come up with the solution to this... I'd LOVE to know. How?!?! Again you can lead a horse to water, can't make them drink. He's in denial. He says (word for word) "he doesn't need help" and "he doesn't want help" and "he doesn't have a problem" (with ANYTHING, not just with this).

Truthfully, I guess I come off as more as a schizo here than I really am TO HIM. I play out my internal struggles HERE. So that I DON'T fall into the trap of wanting to do it with him. I am trying to help him. I really am. And I kinda resent that you are pegging me as the nagging wife that just sits here and makes ultimatums and screams and yells and expects results.

I made mistakes, but that doesn't justify what he's doing now. I can UNDERSTAND it, but it doesn't JUSTIFY it. And my UNDERSTANDING of it is what has gotten me this far, through some pretty bad behavior on his part. I may be a FWW... but I am well aware of my role in things...

And just because I was unfaithful doesn't mean that I have to accept ABUSE from him to "make up for that".

So, I'm serious-- I'd love to formula a PLAN for dealing with this, rather than arguing semantics. I have been still in hopes for constructing a PLAN for dealing with this.

Ark are you suggesting I just let this all go?? Not do a thing about it?? Just ACCEPT IT?? I'm not being an a**-- I am really sort of befuddled as to what you really think the best course of action is. I don't understand your point at all... I really need help formulating a PLAN OF ACTION. The PLAN OF ACTION part has been the most useful part of this board for me.. because when I have a PLAN.. then I have something to go on, not just fly by the seat of my pants and make decisions without thinking them through.

And at this point, I really DON'T KNOW what the best course of action is. I really don't. So-- ark, please help. I'm not being an a**-- I just need help formulating a plan that makes SENSE. I may be a FWS-- but, I have done a lot of work ON MYSELF-- and I don't "expect" anything from him in return, but I DO still have boundaries. And I don't believe I should just have to "take" anything he tosses my way.

And quite frankly, the more I "take" from him, the more he "pushes" to see what he can get away with. He's taking advantage of me. I am putting my foot down here. He doesn't have to try or anything in our relationship- no. But, I am not going to continue being all plan A with someone so self-destructive.

so.. help in constructing a PLAN?? That should make perfect sense. I NEED A PLAN OF ACTION TO DEAL WITH THIS, something that I AM COMFORTABLE WITH.

I am comfortable for now writing him a letter (as I am going to shortly) expressing MY hurt and how his actions make ME feel. It is up to him what he does about that at this point. But I don't think I should just sit here and "take" this lying down just because I am carrying some red letter A around.

I need a plan.

RIM

Just to clarify-- I don't even WANT to have a relationship talk with him. It is nothing but FRUSTRATING. I stopped trying a long time ago.

He DOES try REPEATEDLY... just about daily!... to bait me into conversations about R that go NOWHERE (I learned that in the past). HE brings it up. I just DON'T RESPOND anymore. Or-- I just simply say "I'm sorry" or something other neutral like that and change the subject. It is MOST CERTAINLY NOT ME, at all, 100% NOT ME that brings this up.

I have offered help without DJ. I have tried to get him to go to IC to "sort out thoughts"-- making it seem as non-chalelant as possible-- when he starts with his whole "I don't know what I want" wailing. I've offered to go to MC. He wants none of any of the above. I've tried just being there myself. I've tried TELLING him I'm here for him. None of the above works. Not even a little. At this point, I'm out of ideas for "helping". Its hard to sit here and watch this all-- not just because it affects me, but because he is such a good person inside, has a lot to give, and is very successful, and all this self destruction is hard to watch.

I'm not sure if you are BLAMING me for his self destruction. If he wants that bad, he can leave. He's perfectly capable of filing for D. And if that is what would make him "better", I'd gladly sign. But-- I really don't believe it would (and I don't think I'm being selfish in saying that). I believe a lot of these were problems burbling underneath before the A. And they DID rear their ugly head then. Not like this, but they did. Well-- actually-- there were occasions where they DID rear their ugly head like they are now. He just about ruined our WEDDING DAY with ALCOHOL. Long before my A. But after two EAs on his part. These are his demons he needs to deal with. And I can try my hardest to be there for him and "help" him and "get him help"... but he's still in denial, so all of that doesn't really "help" in the long term.

So-- I guess I'm left with the options of:

A. "take" it all. Just continue with plan A as if nothing happened.

B. put "boundaries" in place such that I will continue plan A, if and ONLY if those boundaries ARE NOT crossed.

C. Leave. The end. El finito.

You surely can't be advising that I just "take" whatever he decides to toss my way, ark, can you? That I just let him self destruct and just keep plan Aing away and IGNORE all of this? I'm just really confused as to what in gods green earth you REALLY actually THINK about all of this... it is really hard to read between the lines with you (no pun intended), and my brain really can't handle any sort of heavy duty thinking right now. So lay it out there. Please. Your opinion... and what you think I should DO. As a plan. I need a plan.

RIM

Again, Dr. Harley's Plan A does not work with an addict, and the quote above is WHY it doesn't work. Ark is talking about Plan A and MB. In Plan A, you do all the work while the WS works through their A and then WD from the A. This sitch is different because you both cheated, and because he is an addict. So coming strictly from WS/BS perspective here doesn't really work, IMO.

I don't know what to tell you for a plan. His feet are firmly planted in denial, addiction, AO and DJ. Yours are firmly planted in "why is he lying, and how can I fix him, etc." So, I will offer moral support, but respectfully bow out from trying to actually advise you.

I hope you can speak to the Harleys soon. They can help you come up with a plan.

edit.

rim..

here's my thought...

forget the fact that he lied...

what is the proper steps for dealing with a person abusing subtances...

YOU go to ala-non
YOU get educated on how to deal with and respond
YOU get a plan with boundaries...
YOU get educated on tough love and treatment

not a letter going you lied again you lied again you lied again...

IF you have a person abusing
YOU need to learn how to deal with that...

I don't understand your letter..
I don't understand the lines I know that you are a very strong person, and that you don't "need" help.

your love and support comes from handing him a list of treatment plans....
places where he can get help etc

I am not telling you to accept anything ..
but going to him upset about lying is like going to a diabetic who is out of control and yelling at them that their blood sugar is high...

of course it's high it's a sypmptom of uncontrolled diabetes

of course he lies about drug use...it's a symptom of using

I am not blaming you for anything..
I just do not understand this being upset over the lies..
when there are these other issues...

it's not going to get you anywhere confronting him over the lies....

and a modified plan B..stay in the house and not talk..
doesn't work....

why not come home and just announce that you are going to ala-non so that you can learn how to be married to a drug using alcoholic and NOT say anything else...

let your ACTIONS on this be your words...


ark

Hi RIM,

ARC has some good points to make here. I agree that the tone of the first three paragraphs won't get you anywhere, it's basically wagging your figure at him.

You're getting someawhere with the last one though. But you definately want to change this line



You want your message to say that you are concerned for his well being, that he does need help and that you'll be by his side while he does.

Sorry, time is tight right now (All he!! going on at work here) You have time for this so get that original out of there and start with your last one. I'll be back on later tonight and we can look atit some more then.

He just gets VERY angry anytime I EVER even so much as SUGGEST he might need help. He's a man. Man...no...need...help!! Man do everything self! Man fine alone! Man no need woman!

(excuse the caveman talk. I think I'm getting delirious).

I guess that is why I was trying to "soften" the whole "you need help" part-- because that makes him VERY angry. That one suggestion alone is enough to usually send him off the deep end.

Oh-- and he's planning date night for tomorrow night. This should be interesting. I half think he will come up with SOME reason-- and reason-- to cancel it (and blame it on me). That is what he did the last time. He planned date night, then cancelled it, and said it was because of me (because THAT VERY DAY, he took another woman out to lunch, and then proceeded to send her flirty little emails all day long about how any guy who got her would be so lucky, and how much he enjoyed his lunch with her. and I was a little upset. So, because I got upset over that, he cancelled date night because "I ruined it" (clearly-- I forced him to go out to lunch with another woman and then send her flirty emails).

So, half of me thinks he's waiting for me to make a move on this vicodin stuff JUST so that he can freak out, and cancel tomorrow night and then blame it all on me.

RIM

Hi RIM,

Crisis averted... at work anyway. Now let’s get you out of yours.

ROFL!!! That was good.

You need to set the abuse as a boundary (I think that's the main point Arc is trying to get across, Arc please correct me if I'm off base here). You come back to the lies, but the lies are not the problem the abuse is. You with me?

Now if he feels like he's being backed into a corner when you bring it up, than yes the AO are going to come flying.

You don't want to have anything in there that mentions what he's done or not done. He knows this already and bringing it up just fuels the fire. Here's the bonus of putting it in writing, you don't have to give it until it's as good as you feel you can get it, unlike when you're face to face.

So keep your POKER face on and enjoy tomorrow night. In the meantime we work this thing out.

OK-- Poker face ready. This has been therapeutic today. I think I can manage poker face.

We agreed earlier this week that this would be a "no computer" night. IE-- we just spend tonight together and NOT do any work (usually we both end up on our laptops, doing work, after dinner). I have a feeling he might break that. There's a We'll see. Anyways-- what I'm trying to say is that I probably won't be around much, if at all-- tonight. I'll be leaving work around 5:30 ET and probably won't be back on until tomorrow morning. I am going to continue to work on the letter.

I agree that I need to set abuse as the boundary. But-- how? How do you actually DO that?? I mean, that's easy to SAY, but how do you DO that? I can call up ala-non. I'll give a meeting a try. I went through their 20 questions to see if you are dealing with an alcoholic online, and a lot of them didn't really pertain to us. Its not like this happens every day. Or even that FREQUENTLY. And yes, he is an "emotional" drinker. Always has been. The only times he drinks excessively (well, since college...) are when he's upset. And, just like they always say... the emotional state you were in BEFORE you started drinking only becomes heightened when you drink.

So-- recently, he's been doing really well, I'd say. Still probably has somewhat of a pickled liver, but better. That is why this kinda came as a shock.

Still-- its not THAT uncommon for him to have 6-8 beers between dinner and bedtime. Sometimes even on a weeknight. But he doesn't see that as a problem. Oh-- and alcoholism runs in his family. His grandfather was a HORRIBLE alcoholic (and person in general), and he has a few aunts and uncles that are stereotypical drunks (think David Hasselhoff). Some of this is that his family are big drinkers to begin with. They constantly have a case of beer and liquor around, and anytime anyone comes over, they crack open a beer. Or come home from work and crack open a beer. None of his immediate family members has a problem though-- but they don't see a problem at all with drinking, etc. My family is nothing like that. My parents never really drank at all, and this whole get home from work and crack open a beer is foreign to me. Not that I think it is WRONG per se, but I do know that 6-8 beers a night is NOT normal.

So-- how do you set a boundary? I'll give alanon a call. But, a lot of their "20 questions" I answered "no" for him. I'd say at least 3/4 of them were "no". He's not the drink himself stupid and pass out kind, just the drink himself to a point where he is completely conscious and lucid, just very angry and mean. Although, he has done the drink himself stupid a few times too, but I'd say more often it is the drink a moderate amount and just become a bad person type.

How do I DO this?

I've decided I'm NOT going to send the email to the doctor anymore. I will wait to see if there are subsequent appointments. At this point, if he no longer needs to see the doctor and this "solves" his foot problems, well then my email is a moot point. So, I'm sitting on that one. Another appointment made though will WARRANT sending the email. I almost did it this time-- but like Ark said, I didn't want to baby him or be his mother. I figured I'd let him make the decisions-- he's a big boy. He chose wrong. And lied.

I asked him when he got home (and it legitimately hurt) if he had gotten pain killers for it. I didn't ask accusitorliy, I asked in the context of "your foot hurts, so you should take some pain medicine". He said he told the doctor he didn't want the vicodin and that he had already taken advil for it.

How do I DO this?

I will work on the letter in my head for tomorrow-- and put it up here again, going off of that last paragraph as a starting point. I doubt I will be on here tonight. Even if he works on the computer, I will probably stay off. We promised, right? And even if he breaks it, I'm not going to!

RIM

educate yourself on alcohol and drug abuse before setting boundaries...

ark

RIM, I agree with Ark - at this point you don't have enough information in the database to make a decision, much less a boundary.

Go to an Alanon meeting. Talk with other men and women who are dealing with alcoholism. They will probably be able to point out things that are currently going on in regards to the alcohol issues that you are completely blind to.

I would take the approach Ark suggested. You aren't going to Alanon to try and change him, you are going for yourself to get understanding for yourself.

Knowledge is power. Right now you can't determine if he is an alcoholic or not - talk to people who know and make an informed determination.

Boundaries are what you set for yourself. They are not controls you try to impose on him.

Does that make sense?

This has been one of the more difficult concepts for me to (convincingly) describe.

I am home sick, so I did a lot of MB reading yesterday .... and Mark did a beautiful job describing exactly this concept.

I'm gonna try & link it ... be back.

BOUNDARIES (by Mark)

Boundaries are a pretty simple concept. They define what is ours and what is not. Each of us must define our own boundaries and herein lays the difficulty.

If I own a piece of property, it has certain dimensions and features that lie within that piece of property. The boundaries in this case are defined by legal methods. Inside that boundary is mine and I have certain rights to do with it as I wish within legal limits. I cannot build a strip mall on land that is zoned as residential or a 10 flat apartment building on land that is zoned for agriculture. In some settings it may also be required legally that I do something specific with that property such as maintain the growth of weeds or build a certain type of structure.

Each of us must develop our own boundaries that define us. Inside that boundary lies all that makes us who we are and outside is who we are not. My boundaries enclose what I own and what I am responsible for. Outside does not belong to me, I have no right to it and I am not responsible for it or what happens to it.

When someone encroaches on my boundaries, I feel violated. Just as we feel a sense of violation when a person enters our home uninvited and steals our possessions, we also have those same feelings when another person violates our personal boundaries because it violates our right to define what is ours and what is not. We no longer feel as if we are in control of ourselves and someone else has usurped that authority.

Within marriage, there needs to be three sets of boundaries. Each marital partner has his or her own personal boundaries and a third set of boundaries must be in place to define what the marriage is and what it is not. Both husband and wife are responsible not only for protecting their own boundaries but also for the enforcement of the marital boundaries and its defense and protection.

The marital boundaries must be agreed upon and can shift over time. They must be well established and clearly defined in the minds of the marriage partners in order for the marriage to survive for long. Allowing others to assume authority over what belongs to the marriage is a violation that has as it’s consequences a host of things that include resentment, feelings of betrayal and mistrust and anger over the loss of feeling safe within the marriage.

This is what happens in infidelity. One person allows someone from outside the marriage to enter into the domain that belongs to the marriage. While both partners within the marriage have equal rights, they typically rightly assume that those outside the marriage do not enjoy those same rights. The betrayal means that the safety of the boundary no longer exists and what we once considered to be a known boundary is in a shambles.

It is when this marital boundary is violated that we begin to examine our own boundaries and attempt to reconcile our beliefs with what we now see as reality. The problem we encounter is our desire to strengthen the marital boundary by attempting to enforce boundaries for the wayward spouse. The only trouble with this philosophy is that we cannot establish a boundary for someone else, only for ourselves. They must enforce their own boundaries; we simply cannot do it for them.

We can however set consequences for violating OUR boundaries and even establish new temporary boundaries to safeguard ourselves from further violation. Consequences for violating our boundaries must be clear, defined before execution and adhered to precisely to be of any help in causing the changes we seek in the offending persons actions, but even more so if they are to give us the protection we require from the pain of the betrayal.

This boils down to a simple yet difficult to resolve IF – THEN – ELSE logic problem. I must establish my boundary (not the other person’s) and state the consequences of respecting that boundary as well as not respecting it. We must be certain that WE are willing to pay the price for a boundary violation before we express these consequences since failure to enforce the boundary by the stated consequence negates the boundary and lets the other person off the hook for violating it. It also makes it more difficult to establish real boundaries, since all will now be open to testing.

So, if my boundary is that if my wife never has contact with the OM for any reason ever again, even by accident, and the consequence for violating that boundary is that I will terminate the marriage, then I must be prepared to file for divorce at the first violation of my wishes. To a wayward spouse this sounds more like an idle threat than a real consequence and so they usually test the betrayed spouse’s resolve at the earliest opportunity.

However, I might state my boundary as being no contact with OM and if I find that she has violated that by calling him with her cellular phone, I will cancel her cell phone account that I pay for. In this case, a test does not end in failure to attempt to continue toward reconciliation while at the same time it is something I might actually follow through with. Since it sounds more reasonable than my threat of divorce and doomsday, it seems more plausible to my wife and therefore is more likely to be accepted by her. It is also a price that I am willing to pay for her violation and so it is more likely that I will follow through with it if and when a violation occurs.

A betrayed spouse tends to want a boundary to be a wall. The problem with walls is that they fail to allow good things in as well as keeping bad things out. In an effort to feel safe we wish to restrict the movement of our spouse and in so doing actually create a scenario which ultimately leads to our failure to gain that which we seek. The wall not only prevents our spouse from seeing the other person, it also prevents us from getting outside help and causes resentment to build up in both of us. By creating a wall, it puts the betrayed spouse in a position of having to be the defender of that wall and places sole responsibility for the actions of the wayward spouse back on the betrayed spouse. We are basically attempting to establish a boundary for our spouse. It therefore becomes self defeating.

In ancient times, a wall was constructed around a city that was designed to protect it from enemies. While the wall had to be there for that purpose, it also inhibited the free entry and exit of the inhabitants. A gate was required at various points along the wall to not only allow travelers to enter and leave the city but also to admit food and water into the city for the people to survive. When under attack, the gates were closed and heavily defended. While this kept the enemy out, it also prevented the food and water from getting in and the attackers would often use this as a means of bringing the city into submission. So it was the wall that was meant to protect the city that would ultimately lead to its demise.

More later…

Mark

--------------------





More Boundaries:

Our personal boundaries define who we are and what we expect out of life. It is often misunderstood or misplaced boundaries that cause us to become frustrated and ultimately come to resent others.

Inside of ME, within my personal boundaries lays a whole host of things. These are all things that I OWN and have responsibilities for. Those things outside of ME are all things that I have no ownership of and no responsibility for.

Among those things that make up ME are the choices that I make. I am responsible for ALL of my choices in life. It is when I attempt to shift blame for my wrong choices to others that I am misplacing a boundary and this leads to a violation of their boundaries. What I am doing when I blame others for my choices is to attempt to make them responsible for something that is entirely MINE. It is an attempt to make what I do the responsibility of someone else.

This is often seen in a wayward spouse’s attempts to shift blame for having an affair to the betrayed spouse. In an effort to resolve the tension between their belief that they are a good person and actions they know to be wrong (bad choices), they try to get the betrayed spouse to accept responsibility for what they chose to do. So many times the betrayed spouse buys into the argument and accepts blame for what the wayward spouse chose to do and this causes so much pain and resentment because the betrayed spouse now feels that they were the cause of the affair.

The way this manifests itself is in statements like “I had to get my needs met because you weren’t meeting them.” Sometimes it is based on resentment for past failures “I went to her because you _______(fill in the blank).” While this is often attributed to the fog of the affair, it is really about misplaced boundaries and a failure to own one’s own choices and actions.

The truth is that the betrayed spouse did perhaps make choices of their own that created an environment that allowed the wayward spouse to more easily make those choices, but the choices were made by the wayward spouse and blame cannot and should not be accepted by the betrayed spouse. A marriage filled with Love Busters and lack of care for each other can allow a person’s Love Bank to become so low that they do not feel loved or loving toward their spouse but the choice to engage in an affair remains theirs alone.

A betrayed spouse also often tries to control the wayward spouse’s actions and enforce what should be the wayward spouse’s boundaries. This leads to frustration because seldom does the betrayed spouse get the desired results. We simply cannot make choices for others and when we attempt to do so it drives them away and causes us to suffer the resentment of having failed expectations.

Our boundaries also define our beliefs. What we believe to be true or not true is our decision alone. We cannot define what others believe any more than we can control their actions and choices. When what we believed to be true is called into question it is sometimes because what we believed was in reality a false assumption. As this applies to our marriage, we tend to believe that because our spouse is not complaining about something that they are happy with the state of the marriage. This tends to give us a sense of everything being fine and we fail to put forth the effort to ensure that things are what they should be.

We also have false beliefs about how things should be in marriage. When we first marry we usually believe that we have love for each other and we have each other and that is all that will be required. We believe that somehow all of the problems will take care of themselves and we’ll live happily ever after because we are in love. Of course we soon discover that what we believe to be true about love is not and we must correct our thinking to line up with reality.

This where Dr Harley’s Basic Concepts become crucial. From these concepts we learn that love may be and must be built and in fact rebuilt on a continuing basis. Because what we once believed about love, that it was a magical thing beyond our control and that it would endure of its own accord is not true. Therefore what we believe must change in order for love to last.

When we allow our boundaries to extend to include others, we are making unreasonable demands of them. We set expectations that are usually not based on truth and when we find them to be unmet, we feel slighted. But what we thought would happen does not because of our own expectations rather than a failure of our spouse to live up to a standard that they may or may not also hold to be true. We cannot set boundaries and standards for others, only ourselves.

We cannot enforce the boundaries of others no matter how hard we try. Only they have that power. It is also the responsibility of each of us to enforce our own boundaries and to set those boundaries based on truth and reality rather than false assumptions and beliefs.



Mark

--------------------

Thank you for re-posting this, Pepperband. And of course, thanks to Mark for writing it!

This helps a lot.

In other news we have a "date night" tonight that HE planned! I'm excited. This is the first date night he's planned for us in over 6 months.

RIM

And, deal. I'll go to an ala-non meeting. I'll figure this out. I owe him this much at this point... Things are just so screwed right now that I hope our marriage survives....

RIM

RIM


http://www.al-anon.org/meetings/meeting.html


Chris

Hi RIM,

How are you doing today? You're excited about tonight that's good.
So what the plan to pull of the PLAN?
NO LBs - NO LBs - and No expectations.
I don't know, but it's like he's reaching out in his own way but doesn’t trust that you'll stand for him. So no mention of the lying, that vets are bang on with the lying due to the addiction, I did it, lie to everybody I knew to keep the addiction going and ignored my WW's please to stop.
RIM - I don't believe for a minute that your H is a bad man. It sounds like (And I think that is what you are trying to get across to us) that he is very good at putting on a mask in front of the world than takes out his frustrations on you. I can really relate to him RIM, this is why I'm badgering you with this. He sounds allot like me a year ago. My drug of choice was pot, and my decision to choose pot over my wife had allot to do with the situation I'm in now. No excusing the affair of course, but this is what lead to her searching to have these needs fulfilled.
The unfortunate part in all of this is that until I realized what I was doing to myself and to those I loved, I was not ready to deal with it.
Be patient and as loving as you can. Let's hope that we can get him to share with us one day, because he would see that others have gone thought it and we may be able to help him out.

RIM
If Marks post sounds foreign to you then get to Ala-anon.
Also the link below will help to show the stepps to developing boundries.

WOW what a post
Thank you Mark. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


http://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-When-Take-Control-Your/dp/0310209749

Chris