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Well said, graplin. I agree with you.
But...be careful who you put on a pedestal. We're all human and even those veteran posters you mentioned have stooped to name calling and heavy "2x4" wielding. - one of them, at least.
Fox I assure you it was more than that! JL and Bramblerose were both REKNOWNED for it, which makes graplin's screed about "2x4's" all the more amusing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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You can read those locked threads - although it is hard to follow with all the editing. I, like you, wish the editing didn't occur, because IMO it is clear what participants appear to be operating with little self-control and a lot of disrespect. There is little discussion of *what* you are saying, but a lot of discussion about *why* you are saying it. graplin, I did read one locked thread and found exactly what you are talking about. I actually caught another poster lying as a debate tactic and then claiming to be "misunderstood." Do you think that lying and accusing your opponent of using "straw men" is respectful or conducive to respectful discussion? Lets have a look, shall we? Graplin: "The concern I expressed was that in the rush to call troll whenever the outside-the-norm story shows up , we have driven off people *who were not trolls*.Ace pointed out that when she first came on this forum, she was accused of being a troll. She left the forum. She did eventually come back. She was not a troll. " Melody: She never claimed she left for that reason. Graplin: And I never said she did! This is another case of you setting up your straw arguments. I was pointing out that she was falsely accused. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=7&vc=1Lying and denying ………………..as a debate tactic, graplin.
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My reaction exactly, here we go again... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Having counseled and conversed with all three of the Harleys---mostly Steve but also a bit with Jen and Bill---I can't ever remember them advocating the use of 2x4's. It's not in their methodology. Even when being 'truthful' with a WS, they are always careful to use respect and compassion.
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Can I step up and be the sacrificial crybaby if nobody else has the balls 2?
I personally believe that anyone moderating a forum dealing with subjects like infidelity should be a paid professional with expertise in that area - the stakes are just 2 high.
But that's just my humble opinion. And this is the internet age, and anybody who wants 2 can have a website, post blogs, stuff like that.
Most of the stuff I participate in is pretty harmless - old car forums, telescope making forums - because even though there can still be flame wars on sites like that, the areas of our lives that are targeted by the internet trolls and internet vigilanties (and only if we allow that) don't affect our very souls like they can (only if we allow that) if they're about the most personal aspects of our lives - relationships with our loved ones.
Fear (paranoia, particularly) is most insidious when we don't recognize it creeping in the back of our thoughts until it's already gotten a firm foothold. Outwardly strong, firm people are the most susceptible, in my opinion.
Shouting louder doesn't keep the "evil" out. Calming down and thinking about what we're about 2 say before we simply react, does. Or at least it can.
And I'm as guilty at times as any crybaby or holier-than-thou-er, in my own "special way", I will admit. I'll try harder. Please bear with me, as I'm incomplete.
But, it is entirely possible that, in order 2 "succeed", I'll have 2 either post only 2 the OT threads, or run screaming from the room.
I don't need the negativity. Being positive in si2ations that we deal with here is more challenging.
But far, far more rewarding. And character-building.
And responsible people need 2 take it on as something they should simply do as a matter of course. Period. End of discussion.
-ol' 2long
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Wouldn't it be so nice if we could leave the board moderating to the ........... MODERATORS?
I don't understand these discussions at all, because people post in the manner they choose. They don't care what others think about their posting style. I cannot MAKE people post in a way that suits my tastes; neither can you, 2Long.
That is the domain of the MODS and the Harleys.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I can only sit here and agree wholeheartedly with K and 2Long... AMEN!! (Sorry, 2 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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Mel:
One of my points is that we CAN, and HAVE 2 leave the moderating 2 the moderators!
The ultimate recourse that any of us has, is 2 stay or go as suits our ethics. I'm tying my running shoe laces.
Do you have the balls 2 do what I asked of myself?
In our apparent vulnerability lies our strength!
-ol' 2long
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I personally believe that anyone moderating a forum dealing with subjects like infidelity should be a paid professional with expertise in that area - the stakes are just 2 high. Hi 2long, I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with the quote above. But what I will offer is if that occured this forum may no longer be a free resource. The Harley's might need to start charging membership fees to cover the cost of additional MB employee(s) with the respective professional credentials to fill the role(s) of Moderator. Something to think about. Jo
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I don't understand these discussions at all... Yup. You learn to lead by example. Compassion is never misplaced---that's one of the things Steve helped me learn. 2Long---I might up you on your perception. I sometimes wonder if the only people able to give 'advice' should be professional who really understand the material. I've struggled with that in the past, even though being given nice 'pats on the back' from Steve H. You hate to do harm to someone's life...
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K, actually STEVE does use 2x4's. So does JL, so did BrambleRose, so does Mimi, so do many. But even if Steve didn't, SO WHAT? What he does has nothing to do with the posters here.
Posters post in their OWN STYLE according to their OWN TASTE. We are not all little robotons here.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Isn't using the tool....<<<<<report post>>>>>.... allowing the moderators to moderate? So why tell those people they're "crybabies"? And why would a title that includes calling people "crybabies" (insults, namecalling) and discouraging them from using the very tool provided by our founders and moderators to prevent this....be UNmoderated? I dunno. This whole thread seems to fly in the face of the very things you all are fighting for. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
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Isn't using the tool....<<<<<report post>>>>>.... allowing the moderators to moderate? So why tell those people they're "crybabies"? And why would a title that includes calling people "crybabies" (insults, namecalling) and discouraging them from using the very tool provided by our founders and moderators to prevent this....be UNmoderated? I dunno. This whole thread seems to fly in the face of the very things you all are fighting for. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> "all of you?" I believe one guy started it, starfish.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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But even if Steve didn't, SO WHAT? What he does has nothing to do with the posters here. Indeed. That's part of my point. Much of what MarriageBuilders stands for, and the techniques they use, have very little to do with the posters (and what is posted) here. Posters post in their OWN STYLE according to their OWN TASTE. We are not all little robotons here. That sounds like an excuse for bad behavior...
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ML,
Steve Harley is the kindest man I have ever met. He is so compassionate and well spoken that I was enthralled and impressed by his ability to reach out to every human being....no matter how flawed. I spoke to him during phone counseling. I met him and his father at the MB weekend. And I met him again at the Smart Marriage Conference. He is NOT a man who uses 2X4's. You cannot not meet him or speak to him without sensing how much he cares for people and how compassionately he treats even the most depraved sinners. No matter how difficult the truth that he delivers....he delivers it with intelligence and grace. He is a gentleman and a teacher, and the way he teaches is designed to uplift and encourage the people he helps. He would never use shame to teach. He would never call people names. Please do not malign him....because he is my hero.
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But even if Steve didn't, SO WHAT? What he does has nothing to do with the posters here. Indeed. That's part of my point. Much of what MarriageBuilders stands for, and the techniques they use, have very little to do with the posters (and what is posted) here. Of course they wouldn't have the same "techniques" as Steve Harley. Posters here are NOT SH, nor are they trained counselors. That is an unrealistic expectation. Posters post in their OWN STYLE according to their OWN TASTE. We are not all little robotons here. That sounds like an excuse for bad behavior... [/quote] I believe its bad behavior to come on a board and endlessly complain about how it is moderated, K. It is also bad behavior to try and dictate our personal standards to others and appoint ourselves behavior cop.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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ML,
Steve Harley is the kindest man I have ever met. He is so compassionate and well spoken that I was enthralled and impressed by his ability to reach out to every human being....no matter how flawed. I spoke to him during phone counseling. I met him and his father at the MB weekend. And I met him again at the Smart Marriage Conference. He is NOT a man who uses 2X4's. You cannot not meet him or speak to him without sensing how much he cares for people and how compassionately he treats even the most depraved sinners. No matter how difficult the truth that he delivers....he delivers it with intelligence and grace. He is a gentleman and a teacher, and the way he teaches is designed to uplift and encourage the people he helps. He would never use shame to teach. He would never call people names. Please do not malign him....because he is my hero. starfish, YOU malign Steve Harley by coming to his board and endlessly whining about the moderating of his board. That is like going to someone's home and griping about their housekeeping instead of just leaving because you find it so unpleasant. If you choose to stay, you lose the prerogative to whine since it is a free choice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Whether or not SH uses 2x4's is irrelevant to the point. It wouldn't change the point that other posters DO USE 2x4s. We are not all Steve Harley robotons here, nor is there any expectation of such. There is no such standard, starfish. That is strictly your OWN manufactured standard. This is another example of you dictating your own standards to other posters.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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ML,
You say what you want to about me...I don't really care....but don't you dare come to THIS place and lie that Steve Harley treats people to 2x4s. That is NOT his style.
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