Hey TMTS! If you look, I have posted a couple time to you, as I have read your story from the very beinning. I relate to you and tryingtoohard VERY much, as your wives sound just like I did only a few days ago.

Your post had asked about being in the fog, and that's what drew me to it...I was on a mission to "save the BSs" by showing you my own transformation (which has just begun, but has had a HUGE impact on our relationship already).

My threads are full of fogspeak, especially my first post, which was just last week...you really HAVE to read it, the link is in my sig line. Then read my hubby's post want2stay, and see if you don't hear yourself in his desperation to get through to me (at least b4 you were fully in plan A). I haven't posted to you for a couple days, because you sounded so much stronger and really are able to follow Plan A now. I believe it will be with great success...from your latest post she is really throwing the chit around like I did. Just like I told try, she is projecting her anger at herself back around to you in an effort to throw you off course, because she knows you do NOT want to lose her. I was very good at this also! The thing is, to me, I was RIGHT. I did not realize that I was, like, speaking from a script that had been written a thousand times over.

So, I want you to read my first post (sig line) and then want2stay's post (he shortened it!), and then go through my new thread called "newer member-question" which culminated last night in a pretty big blow up by me...STILL FIGHTING THE FOG. It will clear eventually (sigh) but it will take a while.

I am going to bed now, but I will check back with you in the morning!

Lala,

Thanks for the note. I have read part of your posts and will finish them today. I hope you don't mind if I ask some tough questions. The purpose is to learn what my opposition may be thinking. I am really down right now... we just got back from X-Mas shopping and I was doing Plan A everywhere I could. Hold her hand her, rub her back there, had coffee with my hand on her leg, and flirted a little by winking at her, told her how sexy she looked, listen attentively whenever she said anything... Then I made a mistake in my head and I forgot about "no expectations" and that brought my down the big roller coaster hill. I just kept repeating it to myself so that I wouldn't LB but internally I was dying. At one point I had a tear in my eye, but she didn't see that... luckily. I'm glad you are fighting the fog, it gives me hope that it can happen.

want2stay just added to the spy 101 thread, also, complete w/screen shots and everything. He's the shiznit!

Ask away-I will do my best, and it'll probably help me/us as well.

Remember to forgive yourself for minor "backslides." You are in pain and trying not to show it. TALL ORDER for anyone who has gone through it, as I have been told by him and others here. w2s and I actually had a little backslide last night b/c I was telling him I wished he would have actually posted here and gained the support of this community once he found it so many months ago. It may have saved him soooo much pain. He was a little upset with me and said "I did the best I could!" And I know he did, we are both very emotional people and I don't know if I could have been half as strong as he has been. Emotionally charged people have a hard time pretending to feel or NOT to feel what they are feeling. We wear our hearts on our sleeves, ya know? But I wasn't really trying to judge him, just to point out that after finding this great community, he could have leaned on the people here like you and tryingtoohard have to help him. Instead he leaned on me, and I was nothing but a foggy mess, and therefore kept hurting him over and over. BUT, we cannot change HOW we got to this point, we can only move forward, and I shouldn't have even brought it up in the first place!

I just finished reading both yours and your hubby's threads. W2S's was very hard to get through.

While you were in the fog, what was the affect of his plan A on you? Were you ambivalent about it or did it leave some kind of mark on your sub-conscious?

Was the A exposed to W2S's or your family? If it was, did anybody talk to you about what you were doing? Did it make any difference?

Looking back, is there anything that could have pulled you out of the fog? Outside of your discovery of what the OM truly was.

I'm glad I found this place sooner than later and from what I read it sounds like W2S is trying to catch up on feelings he couldn't get out before.

The biggest problem I am having with all of this is that since my Father A I have become the solid go to guy. I could separate emotions from rational thought. I put up that wall and now I find myself tearing down the wall and it's like my emotions have found a freedom they have never had and are just running all over the place. Everything wants to come out now and when she smiles at me when I wink the emotional part melts and my rational part is suspicious and considers these acts as foggeese.

Even though some of the people I have exposed this to are convinced that the OM is not really interested in her, and think that she is very much confused about her own feelings, all I see is that she is trudging forward with this plan to leave. She has stopped telling me the details of her search because that was killing me inside, but she still leaves the newspaper open at the rental page with circled places she want to check. I just don't know if any of my efforts are sinking in. (I'll probably get a couple of 2X4's for this... especially if Mark reads it. The No expectation thing is easy to rationalize but sometime the heart just takes control and I just want to cry).

TMTS,

Try not to over analyze this stuff. You don't need to make adjustments to Plan A in order to optimize it beyond identifying her ENs and killing love busters that you can identify in yourself. If you meet her ENs and avoid love busters, you will have an effect. You will be making deposits into her love bank and avoiding withdrawals. That is the key to Plan A.

Plan A was the single hardest thing I ever did in my life. It requires that you give without getting and just keep trudging onward with no reciprocity from her at all. Even if she moves out, you keep doing the same things as best you can until your love for her is about to die totally and then YOU pull back, and wait for her to have an epiphany.

Think about SH's rocks in the river analogy again. The 499 rocks vanish beneath the waves with hardly a ripple to show for themselves, but that 500th rock sticks above the surface just enough to see and prove what you knew to be true all along, that the rocks weren't disappearing at all and were really piling up below the surface. You know it to be true, even when you don't see it.

Plan A works exactly the same way. You keep piling up rocks, one at a time, though you see no changes because you know the changes are happening. You just keep throwing those rocks because you KNOW they aren't disappearing but are in fact piling up. You don't have to throw bigger ones or different ones or shinier ones or heavier ones, just more of them. You aren't looking for a magic one, just the one that finally breaks the surface.

The rocks that you are piling up, the changes you are making to yourself, are making you stronger, better. You are becoming a better husband and emotionally more stable, stronger and more secure. When the fog does clear and the storm is over, she will need you to be all those things. It will be your strength and stamina that will carry you into the beginning of recovery or carry you through the beginning of Plan B if it becomes necessary.

You can't control her at all, so don't bother trying.

No 2X4,s. Maybe a 2X2...

Mark

would be proud... no LB meeting EN at every turn, I even told her the following " I would really appreciate not hearing the details of your apartment and furniture search as it really tears at my heart" It was a thing of beauty. Making deposits into her LB every chance I get.

My game face is really good now; internally I'm still dying though. The good news is that it's not as bad as when I started posting. I even heard you in a dream the other night, all you were saying was no expectations, and then slap me in the back of the head, I would repeat it, you would slap me and the cycle would start over.

I’ve got more Plan A stuff planned to meet En’s. She seems to respond to letters, so I will do that again. I’ve been taking note on some of the little things that she says she needs (A particular perfume, makeup brushes, match box 20 CD) and will put it in her stocking. She will open this at her parents place and should have a huge EN impact.

I think I would have an easier time of it she would LB in some way, but she acts like nothing happened or is happening. All is rosy and everybody will be OK. I see the pain in my children’s faces, especially my ODD who is old enough to understand what an A is.

So sad about oldest DD, as the thought of my actions having that effect on my boys is heartbreaking. Just explain that moms and dads aren't perfect and that her parents both love her very much.

You are so good at Plan A now! But I know it is killing you inside. Keep reminding yourself why you are doing it and how much you love her (especially the real her, not the alien).

DHs Plan A was great, but he was rarely able to keep from talking about the R and the A. He did EN needs exceptionally well, and I understand now that he absolutely did the best he could. I mean, how could I have an opinion on his Plan A when I don't know if I could even be that strong should this sitch be reversed. But in the interest of helping here, I will say that I wish there had been less talk about the R and A while I was totally fogged. I did nothing but hurt even more, not to mention providing me the opportunity to spew from the fog fountain. Things like "I don't know if we were ever meant for each other" and other such nonsense while he was trying to get me to see the light did nothing but hurt him further. He was sure that he could get through to me on his own. But he kept doing sweet things and being his sweet self as much as he could, and I eventually got far enough along that I didn't wan things to end. Would it help you to know that I was apartment hunting myself 2 weeks ago? I told him I was sick of him threatening to leave, and I wasn't going to be punished and tortured anymore just because I made a mistake. Nice, huh! But when he said the D word, it shattered me. I spent all evening by myself, and then when he got home, I actually initiated conversation about it and he was still adamant and extremely PO'd and I knew he was really serious this time. I tried to blow it off, but when he came to bed, I just completely broke down and begged him to stay. The next day I got on this site and started posting. It was (and probably will be for a while) some foggy stuff, but it immediately began helping me see the truth. The people here are amazing and we owe them so much.

To answer some other questions: noone outside of us and my ex best friend (who I cut ties with in August b/c she was causing problems with me and w2s...trying to get me to pursue music, wanting me to go the bars with her, etc) knew until last week. He went through this completely alone. The day he used the D word, he was serious enough to let his sister know, just in case he needed a place to stay. I told my mom the same day. She is a BS (I think several times) by my father who has always fancied himself a real "ladies man." She was pretty hard on me. This also helped move me along. She told me they would support me but I know from experience what a nightmare that would have been.

I don't know if anything else would have brought me out of the fog. Let me think about that, and I will get back to you, OK? I know his story is hard to read, but I hope it shows you how normal your feelings are right now.

Hang in there!

I read W2S's complete thread and it did help. I've completely laid off R or A talk for over a week now, so I hope it helps. Thanks for sharing your story and thought with me, I think it helps more than W2S's. I know what I'm going through, I'm trying to understand what she might be thinking. It's like peeking at the other coach's playbook. (Mark had made reference to playbooks earlier in one of my threads). So now I work the plan like a head coach works the sideline.
I read your other post, keep your chin up.

Glad I could help. We are all cheering for you!

I like the sports analogy-peeking at the other coach's playbook! Very good stuff...I will write more later.

TMTS,

Sorry you are having such a hard time. I know plan a is very difficult. I wasn't that great at it either. It seems to me that you are a very emotional person much as I am. I found it so hard to pretend to be happy when on the inside I felt like I was dying. You have to focus on the love you have for your WS. Try to meet her EN's as much as you can and when you mess up or get upset apoligize and go right back to it. There is nothing else you can do. There is no magic pill so to speak that is going to snap you WS out of the fog she's in. Belive me, I tried for months to talk my wife into understanding what I was going through and it never got through. In her head, she still feels that what she is choosing to do is justified. It won't be until after she emerges from the fog that she will realize that there is no justification for the pain this causes.

Also, you have to stop over analyzing everything. I know at times you can't stop the thoughts in your head. I also struggled with this very thing. Try to instead concentrate on being the man she fell in love with. Focus on being the best father you can possibly be to your children. Take a break from all this stuff and do something that makes you happy. Try to get your life back to as normal as you possibly can. Be patient with youself. Remember, you are a very strong man. The fact that you are here looking to find anwsers to save your marriage proves that. Many people in your situation don't even make it this far. Yet here you are. You are in a difficult situation that you didn't choose to be in and you are doing the best you can. You have to accept that things may not work out. You have to accept that this is out of your control. Just do the best you can.

I asked myself 2 questions each moring when I woke up:

"Do I Love My Wife?"
"Do I Want To Keep Fighting For My Marriage?"

Now it was a given that the answer to the first question was always going to be yes. It wasn't until I reached a point where I had doubts about the second question that I found my answer. You saw in my story that I had reached a point where I had lost all hope and was ready to call it quits. I had reached a point where I felt I had given this all I had to give. If my wife wasn't going to be able to help me heal, I was going to have to find the support I needed to heal elsewhere. That I would be able to say to my children that I did my best.

You know what? The most amazing thing happened. When my wife realized that I was serious everything changed. That night she came here and began posting. She posted, read, asked questions and posted some more. Slowly the fog lifted. This was just 11 days ago. This is what she posted last night...



When the fog finally lifts the transformation is amazing. Was it worth the fight? You bet! I'd do it all over again If I had to.

Hang in there. Do the best you can. Find strength in your children. There is always hope.

Want2Stay

TMTS.. just to chime in real quick. I've been keeping up with your story.. just want to let you know you're doing better than you probably think you are.

Lala: Your point of view is -extremely- helpful to us BS's.. so I don't want you to take what I'm going to tell TMTS next the wrong way.


TRYING to understand or read into the 'WW Playbook' is a recipe for madness.... it's VERY easy to become obsessed with trying to understand what isn't rational.. to make sense of the senseless.. to try to reason out the unreasonable. Don't let it become the focus of your thoughts 'If I do this for her.. what will she feel, what will she think?'... it really doesn't matter in the end.. keep piling those stones like Mark said.. that's a -much- healthier way of looking at things.

One thing you -can- read into Lala's postings.. and her responses to others is this.. persistence, courage, consistency, and the unconditional love of her H is what turned her around... and it didn't happen all at once.. it really built over time.

Another thing you can take away from them is that you don't have to beat yourself up if you slip from time to time.. at the end of the day.. what you do consistently will be what the WS notices..

Thanks W2S, I read both sides of your story and I found it inspirational. I hope and pray for you both.

You said it; the emotions are getting to me sometimes. Ask your W she read my whole story. In a nutshell, the reason the emotions are getting to me now is that I finally starting making peace with the pain of when my F had an A. That's a long time to have a wall up without dealing with it. But you know what.... I'm getting a little better everyday, better at the plan, better at ignoring fogspeak, better at meeting ENs and much better at eliminating LBs.

I find that doing this is very therapeutic, and it keeps the emotions and LBs in check.

Thanks to you and your W for your support.

Jamesus, Thanks for the vote of confidence. You're right about overanalyzing, it's the engineering mindset I have.

I am obsessing some about it... but I'm spending this time learning as much as I can. About fogspeek, ENs, LBs and myself. My IC suggested this great book. Men struggling with love. It's about how men deal with intimacy.

"He Scores!!!!" Sorry, watching the hockey game. OT

If feel like I've grown so much emotionally in such a short time that it sometimes gets overwhelming.

It took a little smacking around by Mark before I got it. Now I'm working on reverse babble. Luckily she doesn't babble much. I can see her struggling inside with all of this. Wait until I drop the next letter on her next week.
(I will post it here before I give it to her for opinions).

We play curling on Friday nights, on the same team, and I was on fire. Smiling at her, winking, telling her how much better she was getting. We had a good time, as we have always had. At the end of the night, I went and got her coat and boots for her. Well, that was a hit; the other ladies at the table were going on that their husbands would need to be threatened before they would do that. (Much older crowd). It was classic.

NICE! Way to go. My H never stopped being the perfect gentleman to me. My co-workers who were married were always envious of how sweet he is...

Jamesus, no offense taken. You are absolutely right, of course. No sense to be made of madness! And that's why I put off answering the question about there being anything else he could have done. I really don't know. All that matters is that I love him with all of my heart and that I have started to see the light (Praise the Lord...can I get a witness!). Sorry-just trying to make you smile <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm sure smiles are a little difficult to come by right now.

And she is almost definitely struggling with it inside..who wouldn't? You are becoming a fantastic Plan A-er!

Take care!

Hi TMTS.

When I read your post, I thought that I could be you! Mine is almost exactly what your situation is, the only difference being my wife moved out in July. I muddled around for a while, and only recently have I been doing what I would consider an effective Plan A.....Right when I'm thinking I need to go into B.

My wife is saying the same things, your'e a great guy, great father, all of that BS, but she doesn't think that she could ever come back as my wife....We get along really well, (Part of my Plan A) talk lots and all of that, but she's not doing anything to initiate contact, unless it's for a reason.

Having said that, she says she doesn't know what she wants to do, she's confused, she doesn't want any relationship at all....yada yada...

I feel your pain my friend.....Hang in there, and be strong.

Ron

Ron I read some of your early post and had to stop. You right our story is very similar. The issue I'm running into now is that the fog is so thick that even though people who she has talked to about the OM see that her doesn't care for her, she's convinced that she love's him and is not willing to give him up. From what one of our mutual friends has told me, she thinks that he left town about two weeks ago. Yet she still keeps the "I need my space" line and continues to work on her plans to leave.
That being said, I feel stronger day by day. I have started to reconnect with my first family and that feel really good. You find out real fast who really loves you when you go through something like this.
Thanks for your support, I feel for you as well.

toomuch,

So as far as you know OM has ended it???

Keep snooping for contact but OM ending it is great.

But then why does she continue with her plans to move out?

I'll take a stab at that.

She's in withdrawal and all the justifications and rationalizations she used to pursue the affair are still with her along with the pain of losing OM. She MUST leave you. It's a matter of pride. She's convinced herself your marriage is over regardless of OM...so it's over. HOWEVER, when I look and try to understand a foggy wayards actions I attempt to put it in an addiction framework. It's the affair and OM they are addicted to so how is their behavior furthering that addiction.

My wife, after getting dumped by OM was ready to leave me. She thought the "answer" to fixing the affair was leaving me. She thought OM would change his mind if she left me. Your wife MAY feel the same way. She MAY feel OM is leaving her/left her because it's too complicated, because she is married, because she didn't leave you soon enough and commit to OM....whatever. Her "moving out" is possibly an attempt at reconciling with OM. When push comes to shove she MAY not follow through with it. Make the potential separation as complicated and difficult as possible...don't discuss it, when you do say "no", make it financially difficult, say "we" can't afford it (go over the numbers with her if you MUST to show her it's impossible and inpractical).


I presume on your other thread you've gotten the advice that IF and WHEN she does leave...try not to let her take much of anything. Marital property STAYS. IF marital property is to be divided...the court and lawyers do the dividing...NOT YOU.

As far as PLAN B.

1. From what I have read...the Harley's typically advise you wait until a couple weeks after a spouse has moved out.

2. IF the affair is over....Plan B isn't typically necessary for quite some time. A BH should be able to muster the strength to endure a longer Plan A if their spouse is no longer having sex with someone else.

3. The MB Plan A, in most situations, should last more than 6 weeks. Toomuch sounds like he's just getting into the swing of things....don't stop now.

4. A full Plan B is difficult if there is any chance of a custody dispute. Your attorney needs to be on board with how you do this to insure your legal rights are not jeopardized.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I apologize if I made any factual mistakes as I have not read your other thread in full. What is the custody plan supposed to be??? Hopefully she's just leaving the kids with you.

Thank Mr. W

I do not know that he has told her straight out that it's over. This guy comes off as a player and I wouldn't be surprised that he strings her along for a while. I've accepted that fact that she will probably need to hit rock bottom before the fog lifts. Your insight as to the pride part is enlightening, I had not thought of that.
AS far as property and plan B, she only taking stuff I don't want in here anyway, save me from purging it later. I've resolved to go on with Plan A as long as I can. I've seen posts where others are working it, and learning from their experiences.
Custody will be shared, unless the place she finds is a complete dump. My ODD doesn't even to talk to her now unless she has to.

Mr W, you are a great advisor, as is Mrs. W. We are very lucky to have your advice.

I agree with Mopey, I LMAO on that "Oh my, what did you do to get yourself banned" thing...too funny...too cool <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

TMTS, I am so glad we are all here right now. It has been sooo helpful, no?

ps-It's weird- Mr. W puts the way I was thinking in the heavy fog way better than I do most times! It was a pride thing that kept me moving forward with leaving, yes. I think I am still too close to it to make sense of it yet or something. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I just thought of this.

Your daughter is 13. Which means she's pretty much old enough to say to the court where she chooses to live. Where she goes the younger child likely follows.

Thus...I wouldn't agree to 50-50 if I were you. I'd merely tell her you will allow her visitation and nothing more, at your discretion if she ABANDONS you and the kids and moves into an apartment.

Thus...she can't move out unless or until she hires a lawyer and files for Divorce or separation.

Howver, if she moves out anyway (which some do...regardless of the legal ramnifications because they are selfish addicts) then she's abandoned the family and forgone any claim to custody (which is good for you if you divorce but also good for you in Plan A because she will hopefully wake up more quickly and miss her family, a lot, and you, hopefully, a little).

Overall, it's most likely a delay tactic.

She's have to first hire a lawyer to negotiate a "separation agreement". You string her along...seemingly negotiating by saying you'll discuss with your attorney and get back to her but not really negotiating (nor wasting attorney fees)...just take her stupid agreement and put it in the circular file. You can delay her several weeks doing this, eventually coming right back to your original offer...she can leave, with some personal items and you'll only agree to standard non-custodial parent visitation. Then she'll have to decide whether to file or not, drawing up papers, and serving them. Another couple weeks. Then she'll have to await a court hearing...maybe a temporary custody hearing...before she can finally sign a lease and move out.

That's a lot of burden for a wayward spouse to carry. Most of them having trouble picking up the dry cleaning and going to the bank in the same day. Plus...in the meantime...YOU are being nice to her. You aren't behaving as you used to. You've also become SUPER DAD beefing up your legal claims to custody while supporting those daughters during this traumatic period in their lives. Home is getting comfortable again, especially with you doing everything. Not only will this delay her decision making it may change her mind.

"Letting" her move out without ramnifications is pretty much enabling her. It will be much more difficult to reconcile once she's gone and set up. Sure she's still likely to come back but at what cost and to whom. You certainly will have a lower love bank account balance and the two of you will be further in debt (lease, moving costs, living expenses for two homes).

Of course...this could all backfire and she'd file and seek custody of the children IN the marital home requesting that YOU move out...but I think your daughter is old enough to put you in the stronger position for custody regardless. I am NOT a divorce attorney so don't rely completely on my speculation. Talk to your lawyer. If you don't have one...get one because, at the very least, you'll need one to hide behind (meaning...when you put your foot down on her moving out and having 50-50 custody it's much better if you say "my attorney advised me to do it" rather than it seemingly being your unilateral manipulating controlling decision to your foggy wife).

Mr. Wondering