LaLa - I'm sure you had a few of these as well with [email]W@S[/email] over the last year. How did you get throught it?

TMTS,

If you haven't already done so, go read BP's Christmas card...

BP's Christmas Card

Thanks Mark,

I am feeling very much hopeless today. Last night and the lack of sleep may have something to do with it. I never thought all of this would be so hard, I didn't take it seriously enough when the EA was discovered so now I have made the task even more difficult because as with many other Wss she has lost faith that I am able to change for the better. She's in the "The changes will not last long" mode. The card and encouragement from those here do help me get through these rough spots. I just wish there were less of them.

I spent the rest of last night reading about how men deal with intimacy. Next is rereading SAA and the 5 love languages.

Thanks for the advice on setting something up for the kids. We just got a foot of snow so tubing might be in order here.

Oh yeah-take them out and play in the snow together...sounds like fun!

The "I can't blame you for wanting to see me fail" is absolutely something I would have said in that mindframe. I think mine was very close...it's the poor me, I messed everything up feeling. Not to minimize the level of her pain, because it is very real. She feels worthless, helpless, rejected...I felt like a bug that deserved to be squished by the next shoe. I cannot wrap my brain around why I couldn't just trust w2s when he would tell me over and over that he wanted what was best for me, for us. He kept telling me I could trust him, that he wanted what was best for me-always. That he loved me and that's why things were so painful for him. Sound familiar? I just don't know why he couldn't get through to me. I still don't get it. He had never, ever given me any reason not to trust him...he had never been controlling or manipulative or jeolous in any way...as a matter of fact in the 13 years we've actually lived together, he has raised his voice at me maybe five times.

I think you understand that getting into Plan A mode is so much safer for both of you...and your girls. This is a painful and emotional time for both of you. Feeling safe in your own home is so important (and I do not mean a physical threat here, I'm talking emotionally).

As I said last night, you are getting such great help from the vets who have been through it-on your side of the fence. She is definitely scared...that comment proves it. I liked what you said the first time, because it is very close to what Mark said as well. And it is the right response, but in an argument, a WS is not going to here it the way he/she should. If she throws it out there again...say what Mark said and maybe it will really make an impact.

It is soooo important that you stop letting her bait you and drag you down in the mud. It is not helping either of you. Whenever she goes there, just say "I love you and I don't want to hurt you." And walk away. I think this will really make a huge impact.

TMTS-

Thanks for the encouragement on my thread. Since I am so new here, I feel somewhat unqualified to give advice (although I have read the Harley's book and am digesting everything I can here!).

I can only tell you that from my experience, attempts to try to change the WS "fogspeak" will probably only determine her more to "fogspeak". I know my H told me over and over and over again how much the "fogspeak" hurt, but I just ignored it, ignored him-- and kept right on "fogspeaking". The less he (and you) react, the less I talked like that. I wouldn't say I started spouting Shakespearian love quotes, but the "fogspeak" did stop for a bit. Its like this selfish beast inhabits your body and thinks you are entitled to all of these emotional rights when you are not doing anything in return. Its really hard to describe. And looking back, I don't even RECOGNIZE the person I was. It sort of disgusts me.

And even though she may "fogspeak", there's still an internal struggle that plan A plays to. Trust me. There's parts of her brain that are telling her she's crazy, and that throwing away her M is a huge mistake. The more you plan A, the bigger and bigger that voice in her head will get. At least, this was all true for me.

This is just from my perspective, in my experience. There's no insight for "fogspeak". And when she comes out of that fog, she'll probably not recognize what she said then either. Its like a drug addict that is all hyped up on something saying they hate you or something else terrible... you know that that person doesn't mean it because something terrible is controlling their thoughts. Kinda the same line of reasoning, just harder to think that way because there's not a specific drug messing up their head (although sometimes you really feel that way!).

Hang in there.

RIM

RIM - Thanks for giving me your perspective. I have been told similar things from many of the veterans and it does register. The problem I run into is controlling those emotions and like Mark said "biting the hook". My head is telling me that I must be patient, but my heart hurts so much that I let it take control. I am re-reading all my threads to help have it all sink in. Thanks for the kind words, and I hope you can get through your Hs reverse fog.

TMTS,

I've been following your posts silently for some time now and gaining much vicariously from the fantastic advice and insights of those helping out.

Your last posts have really struck a chord and I'd like to jump in for a few.

We are much alike - I spend too much time "in my head" trying to analyze something that defies logic, reason or explanation. It's taken me way too long (years!!?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />) to "get it", but I finally have.

You want/need results right now. As so many have told you, you WON'T get them - that's part of the "no expectations mantra". You're getting all that advice in spades so I won't pile on.

The thing that really hit me was your "hopeless" comment.

My friend, my brother - you have GOT to stop reacting. Whether you realize it or not, you are allowing your WS and the affair to define YOUR emotional weather. As long as you do this you will continue to be vulnerable to the feelings you are feeling.

I know this because I've done this all my life.

Another idea I'd like to throw at you for what it's worth. During much of my hopeless days/weeks/months I spent way too much time thinking about and feeling devastated by what's going on w/ WW. It CONSUMED every waking moment. I was in my own fog, unable to actively participate in MY life because I was just as much a slave to the affair as she was. Talk about giving away your own personal power!

Don't forget that whatever happens, you will still end up with YOU, so you need to take care of, love, cherish and cultivate YOU.

This means, among other things, giving yourself a break whenever you "mess up" (you ARE human, you know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)

It also means getting on w/ YOUR life and taking care of YOUR EN's - because no one else is tending to them right now.

I don't know what the normal weather is like where you live this time of year but here it's mostly grey and overcast - kind of like the affair life.

I'd like to share something with you. As a young man when I was a young pilot I vividly remember driving to the airport in the grey drizzle and walking out to the flighline with my collar turned up against the cold. I would do my ritual preflight as I had always done, paying close attention to all those things that must be verified to ensure a successful voyage into an environment not meant for humans. I would climb in and start 'er up - feeling the strength of the throbbing engine as it warmed up.

As I taxied to the duty and got my clearance, I'd begin that amazing transformation that aviators do when we prepare to "slip the surly bonds of earth"...

As you take off you leave your worldly concerns behind and become pure experience. You are self-reliant. You are in charge of your own destiny. Houses get smaller, and so do your earthly worries. Sure they will still be there when you get back, but hey, right now they just don't matter.

As you climb through the clouds, it gradually gets less grey and it grows lighter and lighter with altitude. Finally, there is that magical moment when you burst through the clouds and you are basked in the brightest, warmest, most dazzling sunshine imaginable.

You realize that no matter what the weather is like down below it's just a matter of how high you need to climb to find the sunshine.

Driving home from the airport in the traffic and drizzle I was always a changed man. I had seen the sun, and now carried it with me. I didn't care how cold and wet it was and the traffic was merely a minor nuisance.

TMTS, go find the sun on a daily basis. Whether it is through prayer, meditation, or any other nice thing you do for yourself - go find it. You will be worthless to yourself, your DDs, and your WW if you don't.

This sucks and this is hard, but it's so very much harder if you don't take care of and love yourself!

We're with you every step of the way, but YOU hold the key to your happiness!

(((((TMTS)))))

L2F

We did too! Where are you?

Sorry I didn't post to you yesterday TMTS, I am sick and was feeling pretty rough for most of yesterday...Mr. W did a good job of explaining fog and it's dissipation to you I thought though...

I haven't read your whole thread, so forgive me if you've already answered this...Have you already or are you able now to call and do some phone counseling with Steve Harley? He is WONDERFUL and I believe you would be greatly helped by talking to him...He is also FANTASTIC at getting through to waywards...

Don't keep beating yourself up...This stuff is HARD and you aren't expected to be perfect...Mistakes can be overcome...And waywards not believing the changes are permanent is the rule, not the exception...

You are going to be OK, even if it doesn't feel like it right now...

Mrs. W

TMTS-

Remember that your happiness is directly linked to your hope. If you feel hopeful that you (and your M) will be OK, then you will find happiness. If you lose that hope, then you will only wallow in misery and self-pity. Maintain your hopefulness! Steve told me this morning that the real reason for D is not infidelity or abuse or neglect, it's hopelessness. When one or both spouses is hopeless that their marriage can be a good one, then the marriage will be heading towards D unless hope can be found.

L2F-

Thanks for that post! It was fantastic and uplifting to read!

L2F - You said it all.... I am consumed by this.
I do find my sky as I post. I feel much more encouraged and hopeful after putting down my new thoughts, re-reading old posts or even getting the odd 2X4. I eventually get to that point where I know in my head that everything will be ok. I can usually feel it in my shoulders first, then that knot in my stomach goes away.
Talking to my folks also helps allot, they have been through this and are back together now. As with many here they are my inspiration.

You are right when you say that I need to take care of ME.
Only then will I be useful to the people that love and need me.

Thanks

Mrs.W I'm in Canada about three hours from you.

Thanks for taking the time. I spoke with JHC a week and a half ago and she was very helpful. I was doing much better at Plan A after that talk... that is until last night.

She will not hear anything about talking to the Harley's. Her mind is made up and she needs "space". Know one really knows what the intentions of the OM are. A neighbor told me that from the story she was told by my WW, this guy is a player and is not really interested in a serious relationship. But you H made me see that she may be hopping that her moving will bring him back. Nobody knows if he will respond to that or not.

Thanks for the kind words. Mrs.W I'm in Canada about three hours from you.

L2F, absoluely beautiful post. I'm all teary! What a wonderful, inspirational analogy. WOW!

I don't even know what to say...I feel like Beavis... yeah, yeah, huh huh- what he said. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ah Canada eh? (cuz I know ya don't hear that enough!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hmmm, and she feels this way about the Harleys/MB because I'm guessing you tried to "educate" her about some stuff, huh? Of course completely fruitless for a BS to do with a WS and yet I completely understand why that seems like such a great idea-So I'm not beatin' ya up for it, I would have done the same...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> In many ways I did do that same type battle...My late father had Bipolar Disorder and until his dying day I tried over and over to educate him...MADDENING!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

One way that it is possible that you might get her to talk to Jennifer-and of course you'd want to consult Jennifer about this, but you could tell your WW that Jennifer has requested to speak with her about YOU...Just needs info to help you in some way or another...completely separate from HER...Say Jennifer needs to find out what YOUR PROBLEMS are...hee hee...That has worked in the past on some waywards here...Might be worth a shot...

Mrs. W

Yep - you got it. I had not completely read the article on the web site before calling into the show, and did the mistake of having her listen to it later on that day. She came away from it with the following comment. "Well it looks like the chance of this working out is slim to none" (Talking about the A) but that seemed to just thicken the fog.

I like your idea on getting her to talk to JHC. Put it in terms of she wants to know where I went wrong in the relationship so that she can help me work on the right things. Is that the general idea?

I need to let the dust settle a little before I try that though. I probably will not see her tonight, she gets home from work at 8PM, and I go curling at that time. So I'll see what things are like in a couple of days and set something up with JHC.

At this point, I can't see it helping at all, because of the thickness of the fog, but it's worth a shot.

I just got off the phone with my M. She has a completely different take on this. When she went through this with my F, she immediately implemented Plan - call me once you wake up. LOL. She told me about some of the things he used to tell her, and I cannot believe how much it sounds like the things I'm herring from my WW. She reminded me that the first two months after he left were very hard and she cried allot (I don't remember that part; to me she was a rack except for the first couple of days). But once he came out of the fog, it was Plan - are you ready for restitution.

He had a relapse a few years later with a different W, but that went sour as well. They've been back together for almost 20 years now.

Sorry that's supose to say Rock not [b]Rack LOL

L2F,

Fantastic analogy! I'm a BIG fan of analogies...

TMTS,

Did you get to spend time with the kids yet? Join a gym or something. It's amazing how much exercise can help when you're down.

Work on you. You can't reason with her or convince her by any words that she is wrong and your marriage is worth saving. Only your actions can do that. Be the best husband and the best father you can possibly be. You are the only thing you have any control over.

When you try to convince her she is wrong and try to educate her you are trying to change her actions and feelings. You are trying to control her. It isn't possible and the best that can come of it will be that you will go crazy from the effort.

You do what you have to do no matter what she says or does...

Another book for you to check out is "Love Must Be Tough" by James Dobson. And when you get all caught up with your reading, check out "Boundaries" by Townsend and Cloud.

Take good care of those younguns...You need to be their rock while remaining a beacon for you WW.

This stuff is so blasted hard...

Mark

Thanks Mark, As soon as got home, I went into full cleaning and cooking mode, then shoveled the driveway again (Got another 3 inch today). I'm going curling right now, and for the first time in a long time I am looking forward to it. I'll let you know the score when I get back.

The exercise did make me feel allot better. Helping the waistline too. I’ve dropped 35lbs. in the last month and a half, and looking to loose 25 more.

I really don't get it... I got home from curling (We tied), said hi to my WW and asked how her day was. We chatted for a couple of minutes about our days, then I apologized for last night's run in and explained that the pain just builds up until I let it go. She said she was sorry for the pain she has caused me, I gave her a nice hug and everything was like nothing happened last night. I came downstairs to check on any new posts and she was not far behind me, so I quickly switched to Facebook (I've got her showing me tricks on facebook, I'm an IT guy so I really don't need it, but I think it helps the plan, so it works). She showed me her clinics web site because they had finally put up her picture in the staff section. It was as pleasant a night as we have had since I begun the plan. Is this normal fog behavior? I'm confused... I was expecting to have to cut through the tension.

Can someone please take a stab at explaining this?

Much appreciated.

There will be good days and bad days. As you move towards focusing on Plan A and helping yourself heal, there will hopefully be more good than bad, and then mostly good and a little bad, and then, well, you get the point.

It was the same thing my DH would say to me after a particularly bad day or two..."It builds up on me and then I feel so much better after letting it out." It isn't just normal "fog" behavior, it is the seeds you are planting that may be taking root.

Be strong and hang in there!