You Wonderings are really good!!!
The letter idea is gone! Work the plan!

Sorry, I mean the letter goes into safe keeping so that I can give it to her once we've reconciled... I hope.

"There's a good chance you will get just as great an effect from reading it to the nearest fire hydrant."

LOL, SD Guy, been there, done that, huh?

I'm glad I have made ya think TMTS...I believe that to be a VERY important message to convey to your WW...Bursts that little fantasy that she has bouncing around her head that "everything is gonna be just fine...better even...you'll see!" NOPE...It will NOT be fine...Things will NOT continue in any way, shape or form to be as they once were...See she wants many of the benefits of being married WITH all of the benefits of being single...So sorry Charlie, that will NOT happen...And she would NOT respect you if it did...Women do NOT love men that they don't respect...State your boundary on that one TMTS...

Mrs. W

LOL TMTS...Not "good", we've sadly just traveled this road before you, that's all...

I like the idea of keeping the letter to show her after reconciliation...Some of my big "ah ha" moments came from being allowed to read Mr. W's journal from during the time of the affair...Big healthy doses of reality there...It helped me have empathy towards him...brought me to a place of great remorse...

You're gonna be just fine TMTS...

Mrs. W

I read the Plan A stick portion and can say that I have been doing netter than I thought but need to give her a polite reminder about the hurt that this has caused. She saw it last night and I told her so. The other part I need to shore up is taking blame. The one time she started up about my lack of affection, I told her point blank that I was no accepting that as an excuse anymore. She made the choice to go outside the marriage. But this only happened once, and was not brought up again. If you have suggestions on how I can solidify these positions I would very much appreciate it.

The part I think I've done best with the stick is with setting the expectations for financials. She's giving me $150 every pay check, and actually paid for one of the DDs gift cards for Christmas. (They both love shopping). Exposure was easy and I never felt bad or anxious about it.

TMTS...

I'm gonna let Mr. W (or others) take this one...As I say here often, I've been Plan A'ed, but I have never Plan A'ed...I have some thoughts floating around regarding this stuff, but I'll defer to his expertise on this-I believe his firsthand experience will be beneficial...He'll be along shortly...

Mrs. W

Thank you... Are you Hockey fans? I was watching the Red Wings tonight and they look scary good!!

One suggestion which has already been brought up but not in this manner is:

When you discuss "not being friends" with her if you were to divorce you don't necessarily say it to imply you are being vengeful. Instead you can nicely and calmly indicate that to do so would be a poor parenting choice. Though, if you divorced, you of course move on and find happiness in your life, it really can't include her as that would be setting a horrible example to the children. Children need to learn that when they are abused they don't have to remain on good terms with their abuser because it's the politically correct thing to do. That they should protect themselves from exposure to their abuser no matter who it is. Your sons need to learn that they don't have to take abuse from their wives and your daughters need to learn that there are real consequences to abusing their spouse one day. They, nor your wife, are entitled to everyone just going along for the ride when people hurt them. They need to learn boundaries and how to protect themselves from hurtful people.

Adultery is abuse. Choosing to divorce you with no biblical grounds is immoral, sinful, and unethical. She has no right to do it. Her marriage vows contained no promise of "happiness". Her choice...she either lives up to her vows and you guys get through this "for worse" time in your marriage or she moves on...without you, in any way shape or form. She is your wife and a wife you can reconcile with...however, the "friendship" she envisions is never going to happen. You won't just get over it with time. Trust me. You don't need friends that break their VOWS to you, cheat on you, lie to you, and destroy your family. No way.

Finally...do this verbally. Things like this in writing can be used against you her attorney someday as an indication of your inability to coparent. Coparenting is completely separate issue. You can effectively coparent and still not be friends, but sometimes documents like this can be read or twisted to imply otherwise.

Mr. Wondering

Mr. W is for SURE!!! Being a southern gal, I'm kind of a "fair weather fan" myself...Baseball is my sport...This will kill ya if you are a serious hockey nut, my second game EVER was on the very night of the last time the Wings won the cup-Yeah, I know my ticket should really have gone to a "real fan", but Mr. W and I did have a BLAST!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I find it hilarious that at the Red Wings games here when a cop comes into the stands the crowd begins chanting "USE YOUR GUN"!!! Only in Detroit! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Red Wings rock.

Mrs. W's first NHL hockey game was game 5 of the Stanley Cup finals when we beat the Carolina Hurricanes for the cup. Her first game and she sees THE cup.

We'll be going to a game in January as I'm getting suite tickets from a vendor.

Mr. Wondering

Correction - Her second game...lol

BTW, living in Detroit I've had access to CBC television my entire life.

I've SEEN curling matches and even know the rules.

I also notice how intelligent CBC newcasts are. Much more in depth and with a larger vocabulary.

Mr. Wondering

Mr. W...

DUDE, That was my SECOND game!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Nice edit! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Wow that one really hit a homer! Adultery is abuse. I never even considered that in all my thinking, yes wrong, but not abuse. You've given me allot to think about. This issue will need to be brought up after X-mas and my YDDs birthday the week after.

What do you think about bringing it up like this....?

How do you envision our relationship after you leave? My suspicion id that she will say to be the good friends we are, to which I will lay it on the line and ensure she understands that for us to move on that will not work and that I envision us more like business partners that don't go out for beers after work...

Am I on the right track?

BTW- I'm a French Canadian boy, so you can guess who I root for...

Actually, this isn't great. I forget sometimes what I did and Mrs. W just called me to discuss this above.

You need to listen and cue in to what she's saying. Nod your head and agree with her...maybe reverse babble some...repeat back to her what she's saying and perhaps even say "OK...how would you like me to meet your need for affection in the future". Her response is irrelevant. She may go off on you "It's too late", blah, blah, blah but you are demonstrating that you are willing to listen and change WHILE you are meeting her need for communication.

Now certainly don't participate in bashing yourself. Don't go on and on about all the things you did wrong and feed into her rationalizations and justifications. Avoid that. Move away from the past and keep bringing it back to TODAY and the FUTURE. You won't win any argument discussing the past (she's rewritten it and emphasized the heck out of any and all real transgressions).

Basic rule.

Listen...ask questions...repeat back to her what she said...nod...ask more questions...listen....listen....listen. Keep the conversation going.

Don't cut yourself down with her but take anything she dishes out as a opportunity to learn (even if it's not true).

You WEREN'T meeting her needs the way she likes her needs to be met. You ARE sorry for that and willing to change starting TODAY. You just need to know what they are and how she'd like you to meet them.

Recovery takes 3 apologies.

ONE BIG ONE from the wayward spouse for the adultery (this comes MUCH later in recovery)

One big one from the BS for the failure to meet needs the way their WS likes their needs to be met and to communicate how they want and like their own needs met

One big one from the WS for the failure to meet needs the way the BS likes their needs to be met and to communcate how they want and like their own needs to be met.

In Plan A...you are going first...calmly and without defense and without hesitation.

Simple...but certainly not easy.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - review my do's and don'ts list of Plan A.

Well if you ever have an inkling to try it out, you're only a few hours away (I'm in the Kitchener area) It's a blast to play.

Ahhhh, a Senators fan, no doubt. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Maybe Boston????

They are kind of weak...like the French. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mr. W

p.s.- I've been to Ottawa and Montreal so I know better. Ever see the Rocket play?????

Can I borrow your stones????

Mine are too big for Kitchener.

Everything is bigger here in the USA.

Mr. W

No too young to see the rocket, I did see the 1976 Canadians. Lafleur, Dryden, Cournoyer....

I did meet him though and shook his hand as a kid at an Expos game.

I wasn't to far off from your explanation. I've been consistent in acknowledging where I did not meet her needs, but did not accept that an A was justified.

I'm working on my reverse babble, I'm not great at it yet, but good enough that the babble has pretty much stopped.

All this being said I know I can sharpen the edges (Like that one).

Thanks