Hi Mark,

Thanks for that, I know how busy you are and really appreciate you (an Others) that take the time.

I'm working the plan... that's all I can do. I read to improve myself and doing more running in the last week.

I'm doing all I can not to pull my ODD into the middle of this, so I only talk to her about it when she has questions. She was having a hard time understanding my actions (Plan A), and thought I would be at least as angry as she is. In the beginning she was being pulled both ways and we talked about that last night as well. I explained to her that what was going on was between her M and I. I try very hard to explain her M's reactions based on what she is going through and not my reaction to those reactions. At the end of the conversation though she still insists that the A was what was creating this problem. It was a good talk.
I realized that while I was willowing in self pity, the kids were being left behind, and that's not fair to them. So if she goes, she goes. I keep working the plan and take care of my DDs.

Yes typical...I certainly said it...She doesn't trust your changes and she is holding onto resentment and essentially saying "too little too late"...

Great time for a call to one of the Harleys...They are experts at how to handle that...

Are you aware that you can call in to the radio show and ask Dr. Harley a question FREE???

Mrs. W

Call-in 888-606-1776

They even send you a free book for calling in with a question...Make the call TMTS, k?

Mrs. W

I'm on hold right now with them right now.
Thanks

I agree with Mrs. W. Scarey that her mother is giving her that advice, but also, your WW probably told you that she said that, am I right? So this may be distorted as well.

That anyone would call an A a "consequence" of the BS's actions is cruel. But I believed it myself! (sigh) A more accurate way of putting it would be (and you've heard it before) that you are 50% resposible for the state of your marriage before the A, but she is 100% responsible for stepping outside of the marriage.

Mark is very good at this, as is Mrs. W. If she was so he11bent on leaving, she would have by now. She is trying to get you to respond.

ps-Mrs. W, the "grandma's toothpaste" thing had me and H cracking up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Keep being an awesome YOU and she will have virtually nothing to complain about.

I'm listening! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And LaLa...I KNOW, Mr. W and I still laugh about that one-what a dork I was!!! You know, I've since found that "Grandma Toothpaste" tastes GREAT! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Thanks Lala and Mrs. W - This was something my ODD was told when they were alone. I've not heard this comment first hand.

I stopped looking at the "Men's" thread... way too depressing.

I’ve been reading more on WWs and the chances of them returning to the relationship once they leave, and I'm having a tough time finding anything that gives me hope (Except for Mark's story that is).

On the bright side, she has yet to talk to the mediator that she was supposed to call last week as well as yesterday. I'm not reading too much into that because of Christmas. My F is convinced that spending Christmas alone on Christmas Eve (She's not coming to my folks place), as well as not having me at her folks place for Christmas morning will have an impact. I'm not so sure myself.

I think the OM is back, because she as asked me more than once if I will be staying at my folks place until New Years Eve. When I asked her if she had plans, she said she had been invited to one of her co-workers house for a party. I think she's going to visit him.

I'm up next on the show.

OK, correct me vets if you do not agree, but I am kinda torked on this talking to the ODD stuff-especially by her mother in private! She is trying to manipulate her to get her on her side (Mr.W already said this is a good possibility). But in the cross-fire, I'm afraid this girl is going to end up messed up over this!

Any way toomuch could sit down with his WW and spell out a list of what is to be discussed and what is not with the ODD? Knowing that she comes to her dad with this info, and that it could potentially harm her daughter, which would be brought up in court (if it comes to that). Somewhere inside of her exists the person she was, and even though the alien invasion has taken over, she HAS to still be concerned about the well-being of her daughter(s).

AAArrrrrgh!

I heard you! You sounded GREAT! Very Canadian! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Okay, so then the Harleys say that you need to let her know that your Plan A changes are PURE and NOT self centered at all...That your changes are BECAUSE you care deeply for her...When you have this conversation TMTS, work in the word CHERISH...I've noticed that to be a common complaint of WWs...That they did not feel CHERISHED...That was true for me...

Do you feel encouraged after speaking with the Harleys?

Mrs. W

Sadly, LaLa, I doubt it will be met with anything other than contempt...She's likely to tell TMTS that he needn't tell her how to parent-"hmmph"...And really she will not see her words as harmful to her DDs at all right now...She will tell him that she is just stating the facts...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

WWs are TERRIBLE mothers...

Mrs. W

I had this discussion with her a couple of nights ago, and I talked to my ODD about it last night. The problem I am having is that her commitment to leave seems to be mostly verbal. None of the real stuff is done... i.e. sign a lease to and apartment, rent a truck... She opened a bank account and got our neighbor to hold a sofa for her. (One that she knows could replace the one we have now. So I really don't know what to think. Last night was like I was with my W not my WW, but three days ago when my ODD and WW got into it, it was the alien that showed up.

You hit where my greatest concern lays... my ODD, and I have to admit that I have not handled it great either. She told me last night that she felt like she was being pulled by both sides and the last thing I want is for her to feel trapped. I did my best to explain what I was doing and why, and that I do still love her M and told her where I thought I went wrong in the M. I think that made her feel more comfortable and safe.

Please do not hesitate to take out the 2x4's if you think I am not handling this correctly.

Thank God my kids were too young to get involved and that H and I managed to keep our, um, discussions away from them.

I know you are struggling with this TMTS and my heart goes out to you.

I think, BTW, that she IS fishing for time alone to contact the OM over the holidays. That's what is sounds like. Mr/Mrs. W- can he head this off? The guy sounds like a player, and may actually blow her off, which would be great. Is there anything else he can do, though?

Dr. Harley asked me of air about if she knows that I care about her. She has stated and been consistent even under the fog that she knows I love her. So I am hoping that this does still stay with her. It comes down to the emotional needs and keeping up a good plan A. she may still leave but she’ll leave knowing what your marriage could be.

I wonder if I can implement this with the "friends" talk. The only thing is that I would like to have this discussion before Christmas and the other one after. What do you think?

Did I get any Eh! in there?

I do feel better after talking to them. This is all part of the pattern. She cares about me and the "normal" reactions I am getting are maybe her testing the validity of the changes.
The important part is that I make the changes permanent and continue to improve on them. He also feels confident that I will get another chance at saving our marriage.

I think the #1 thing that I have improved on is that when she starts talking to me, I drop whatever I'm doing and I engage, paying special attention not to try to fix things. (I do have hiccups at times and try to fix, but I'm much better than I use to be). Where I stumble is in my recognition of foggy WW vs. out of the fog W. Is the out of the fog W even in there right now?

Is this making any sense at all?

TMTS...

You need to be by her side at all times...Make it IMPOSSIBLE for her to be in contact with OM essentially...Mr. W drove wayward me NUTS by being home all the time-that really threw a monkey wrench into the affair yanno...It was the absolute RIGHT thing for Mr. W to do...Even when I said he was driving me nuts, he was there having conversations with me and little by little making deposits in my lovebank...

Do NOT go along with plans to be apart...See I don't think that is what should be happening at all...If you want to save your marriage you do that while being TOGETHER, not apart...Simply tell her that you will be coming with her to the co-workers party...She may not like it, but too bad...She'll get over her anger...your marriage can survive her anger but it cannot and will not survive a continuing or rekindled affair...Insert yourself in all aspects of her life...Smile sweetly and tell her how much you cherish time with her...

Mrs. W

I would love nothing better than that, but I run into a problem. She has officially separated from me and is sleeping in the basement until she finds a place. She is not interested one bit in doing anything social with me. As far as she's concerned our M is over and we are to move on.
She even pays her share to keep living there right now, even though it's not much. This is why the "normal" act is so frustrating.

I've done the whole roller coaster ride today. Why can't she see the new me... no more dope, no more ignoring what she says, no more affection quotas... I want this more that anything I have ever wanted! She became my whole life when I met her and grew to being my whole universe, she my only true friend. It's unfortunate that she will say that we are best friends, but sees that as being a negative thing. We’re in the same house but I miss her dearly. (Ok Mark - insert slap here). I do feel good letting that out.

Yes, listen to her...that is GREAT...Mr. W is the MASTER of this...He will listen to me, then instead of trying to fix it, he takes on an empathetic approach...He'll say things like "yeah, you were probably like ________ huh?" or "I bet that made you feel ______ eh?" If he's wrong about my feelings, it doesn't matter, because he leaves it opened ended and allows me to clarify...He LISTENS...He nods...He offers input and humor...Gosh, I wish I could explain this better or heck even bottle it...He is such a wonderful conversationalist! You can be too...

And yes, you will see glimpses of your real wife...As I've told you she is most certainly conflicted about her feelings...As much as you can, try and set up things to be like they were during your courtship...I remember one very emotional night for us in particular...We were out on our deck listening to music on my iPod...Lots of emotion in those songs...That was the night that Mr. W reminded me that without him a big part of my history would be gone forever...I remember hugging and crying that night in bed...Mind you I became a foghorn again the next day as the affair continued, but moments like that never left me...I spent a lot of time listening to music that made me think of Mr. W and crying...I was in massive turmoil and conflict...Stay the course TMTS...Plan A your heart out as long as you have it in you...It does make a lasting impression...I remain awed by Mr. W today...

Mrs. W

Okay...Just called and talked to Mr. W about this whole co-worker party deal...First, you do NOT stay at your parents house through the New Year TMTS...Nah Uh...Your family is under attack and you need to be right there fighting for it...

So, here's what you do...Find a babysitter for the night of the party-do not alert her to this fact-just do it-can the girls stay with your parents through the New Year? Now, she'll be getting ready to go to this "party"...You get ready to go too...You just go with the assumption that you are going along...When she says something like "WHAT??? You are not invited!!!", you act SHOCKED...Say, "Why would anyone invite a married woman to a party without her husband???" You are going with her...Now at this point she may very likely say she is not going now...So you say, "Okay, what would you like to do instead?" *insert innocent wide eyed look here* TMTS, you are going to have to insert yourself back into her life as her husband...Again, your marriage can survive her ANGER...And really how legitimate is anger at your being her husband...THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE!!!

Mrs. W

So let me see if I'm getting the idea here. Basically ignore the fact that she is have the A and has already told me that it's over between us while Plan A ing her like when we were teenagers. Would that not drive her over the edge and push her away even more? I understand fighting for it but does this not cross the respect boundaries? (Insert 2x4 here if warranted)

I don't know if her workmates know what is going on, the A had nothing to do with work and she has only been there a few months so exposure was not recommended. I'm not sure if this was just an excuse to get out but my gut tells me she meeting up with the OM and used the party as an excuse.

What gets me is that she is adamant with me and with her friends that she does not want to move in with him. She says she loves him but does not consider him her 'soul mate' she does say that from what she has seen of him, that she could fall deeply in love.

You think she conflicted... I'm a complete mess of conflict!

TMTS...

A fine balancing act this all is for sure...

Let me give you more anecdotal style advice here...

Okay, my affair was long distance-mostly conducted by phone, text, email...We saw each other over two periods-A week during a Spring Break visit back to my hometown...and then for another 2 week visit...ugh...

Prior to the affair Mr. W and I had both been in a state of withdrawal towards each other...It had become his habit to stay VERY late at the office-sometimes as late as 2 or 3 a.m....All that changed once Dday happened...Mr. W was essentially in my face at all times...As I said, it drove me NUTS at the time, but guess what else it did? Prevented all those lingering phone calls to OM where he was filling my lovebank...Instead Mr. W was there and there were chances for him to fill my lovebank even when I was annoyed with him for being home...I really didn't have a leg to stand on for being annoyed either...What was his offense really? For goodness sakes, nothing more than being in his own home...I was kinda stumped on that...You want to IMPEDE her affair, that is a GOOD thing...

Mrs. W