Can you tell me, please, how waiting a "few weeks" afer she takes off before going to Plan B is good for you? Jennifer said it most definitely is NOT. And I completely agree with her. Why would you continue to Plan A her after she has been treated like gold for quite a while now, and then still chooses to walk away from the marriage? Why would you do that to yourself? I say- she walks, you go dark. Immediately, no warning. You know the stats say only 15% of the time is Plan A enough. You know that 85% of the time, Plan B must happen. Why prolong the agony? I guess I just do NOT understand your reasoning here. It isn't the professional advice you are being given, either, BTW.

Is it fear that holds you back?

And let's look at the fact the she may still be around for a while. She is nice and pampered right where she is, so she really has no incentive to move forward, either (other than sheer selfishness). So, you may be talking about several more weeks of Plan A, aka "the roller coaster ride."

Sorry if this comes off as a 2x4, but you have done one the best Plan A's imaginable for quite some time, and I really do not understand. I want you to be happy, not to sit around Plan A-ing her after she destroys her daughters' lives and your family in general with her selfishness and walks out. Keep in mind that it still may not happen, as I have told you. You have done a great Plan A, and after the mediator wake-up call, she may start to really re-think things. You are making some progress with her, so I am not saying that she will even leave.

BUT, what I am saying, is that if she does leave...WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY!!!!! (OK-now I sound like my 3-yr-old)

Hi Lala,

I'm telling you that is exactly how she worded it. I was on the same line of thinking you were, have the letter ready and when she hands me the keys I hand her the letter and Plan B is on. Just the element of surprise to me made sense that this would be the most opportune time. She explained it like this. Plan B is always dangerous because of the out of sight out of mind scenario, but at the same time she says that generally she'll recommend 2 weeks of plan A after the move, and to be ready to go very dark, because it's just so hard at that point. Now I will be talking to her again once I get a move date from WW, so I'll let you know what is said then. I wasn't surprised by this because I had been told somewhere in my thread that this was what was usually recommended. My take is that they look at it like this. The reality of moving out on its own is painful so the effect of going dark right away looses some of its luster. By let ting the initial shock of the moving stew for a couple of weeks where they start to feel comfortable then going dark keeps all it's power of showing them what true reality will be like.



I pray for this every night! I'm at the point that I sleep with my bible pressed up against my chest as I end my night by saying psalm 40, then say a prayer for my friends here on MB, says special prayer for those of you who are having amore difficult time on that day, a prayer for out mentors (your in that group Lala), on for family, and finally one for all our WSs. Then finish off with psalm 102. Usually takes about 5-10 mins. But man is it ever soul cleansing.

Lala, (And others that have told me the same) I hope your are right on this. Everybody is telling me how good my Plan A is but I still fall into the expectation mode and feel down at times when I don't see or feel anything. I feel at times that my Plan A is only so-so, but that’s the darn stinkin’ thinkin’ that creeps in. It is the FWW that have really helped me get through those parts because you can directly relate your thoughts and experiences. Thanks to you, RIM and Mrs.W for being there for me when I've needed to here what it's like from your perspective.

1. Don't discuss the "not being friends" issue at mediation. The entire court process desires you and your wife to remain friends "for the kids". Indicating otherwise, injures YOUR case. This is something you discuss verbally...outside of court.

2. The reasons you wait a few weeks after she moves out for Plan B instead of immediately are:

a. Doing it immediately feels like you are punishing her. Punishment feels like manipulation.

b. It looks like a reaction versus a protective action that TMTS has taken for himself.

c. It would also make it appear that TMTS is accepting of the notion that this is the end. That unless she moves back home...he is done with her. By waiting he shows how soft his heart is towards her...even yet.

d. When they first move out they are often EXCITED. They operate on the adreniline of the change in circumstances. The whole thing takes a week or two to settle in. You go dark then....at the moment they are starting to get antsy.

Jennifer likely has more reasons...it's just what they always seem to advise.

Mr. Wondering

I can't speak to Jennifer's exact reasons, but the reasons I have given for waiting 2 weeks are that going right into Plan B looks like punishment for moving out. And in 2 weeks, the excitement has worn off and reality begins to set in. The PBL loses its intended PUNCH when the WS is excited about moving and is diverted with moving issues.

But in 2 weeks, she is not diverted and she has started getting homesick! It is also the time when the WS misses the BS the most. Strategically, it is the BEST time to go into Plan B, IMO.

Hey Mr.W.

Thanks for that post. It makes allot of sense.

I am milking this friend’s idea to my advantage right now, simply that I am able to get more affection and touching. I'm thinking that either I drop that one on her about a week or so before she moves, or as part of Plan B. Any thoughts on that idea? I think that doing it now would put a big dent in my Plan a efforts, and I can just keep taking advantage of the fact that she thinks that everything will be fine after the separation.

TMTS,

Do you think she is financially going to be able to pull off the move? I mean, I know she has the sofa lined up and everything but from what you have described about her finances, it doesn't even seem like her moving out is even a posibility. Once she begins to put things in place to try and do it, I think the reality of everything will hit her very hard.

Mr W.
You sure do have this thing down to a science. Your posts are so insightful it shows just how valuable you are to this board.

TMTS,

Wait for Plan B...IMO.

Still on our trip. I'll check in with you later.


Mark

Hi W2S,

In my eye that has been the reason she is not gone yet. That being said, she is depending on monies from the LSA to start up. This is why I'm going to make sure she has to spend allot of money to start herself up. At the current salary she is making there is no way she can keep this going on her own. Her "plan" is to have lingerie parties (I know, completely off the deep end). I read the registration brochure, and the amount of work required in the agreement is more than she will have time for. They want 2-3 parties per week, well if she's got the girls every other week, she'll need to have 4-6 per week just to keep up. The fact that in the area there are 5-6 women already doing this I don't see how she will be able to keep that kind of pace, she just doesn’t have the necessary networking.

Now here's a thought for you that I had last week, tell me if this even makes sense. Everything concrete she has done so far is something that she could easily use in our current situation. We do need a new sofa, she could do the parties while staying with us (And I would get the bonus of free demos. LOL) the savings account she opened is a no fee account and can be transferred easily. You take this and factor in that her ODD and her M have been riding her allot harder than she ever expected and bingo you have massive confusion and internal waffling. Granted this may all just be wishful thinking.

I agree that reality will hit extremely hard. And in so may ways that she is not even thinking about... the nights sitting out back with the neighbors having a drink a real good time, her gardening, in house laundry service, lugging of groceries up elevators, I can go on an on...

I wouldn't drop the D word "for effect", I would drop it because it's your truth. If it isn't, then I wouldn't. Why play that game? If you're serious about R, then I wouldn't even entertain that thought. I'll be curious to see what Jennifer says about going to Plan B pretty soon.

OK, that makes perfect sense to me now. I just #1 always thought your plan was to go to immediate Plan B, so I couldn't understand why you had changed your mind, and #2 misunderstood what you said that Jennifer said...I though she had told you to go immediate Plan B (for the safety of your mental health) and you were deciding to extend it anyways. But the way Mr.W and Mel described it makes perfect sense. I was just so worried about you last night. I think you have made such personal progress in your own life, let alone doing a really good Plan A, and I didn't want you to put yourself through something that would destroy all that.

Mr. W-How should he approach the mediator?
TMTS- Is your appt with Jennifer before or after that meeting?

ps-thank you for keeping me in your prayers. You are a great person and I hope all your hard work pays off for you!!

Hi PM

When I talked to her last week we had talked about Plan B being implemented 2-3 weeks after her move. At this point that date is still unknown, but I suspect Feb. 2 (Her birthday). But I let her take the lead. No pushing for a date I let her tell me on her own timeline.

Mr. & Mrs. W. - When she brings up moving day is when I drop the there will be no friendship line on her. That sounds like better timing doesn't it.

Hey TMTS--

Just checking in to see if you are feeling any better today. I know this is going to be a rough week for you, so you will be in my thoughts and prayers!

I really hope it all works out for you!

RIM

**chirp, chirp! chirp, chirp!!**

Hear (not here, haha!) that?? That's the crickets. Been awfully quiet around here today. Sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes not so much...

So... how's it going today??

The crickets on my thread are because, so far, so good-- so I'm letting it take a break for now.

RIM

Hi RIM,

Thanks for keeping on my case. You're right, this whole mediation thing is weighing heavily on me right now. My heart aches I just feel drained. I wish I could be as confident as you about getting another chance.

What wrong with us RIM (Men that is)? She begged me to stop smoking up when I got home, and that she felt like she was spending time with the back of my head. But I wouldn't listen and now I feel like it's too late. I feel so guilty that I did that to her. I know she made the wrong decision but it still bugs me to think that had I paid more attention (what we now know as the 15hrs of attention) that we wouldn't be facing this now. Does it make any sense that she is doing this still because of her own pain...the pain I caused?

OK, I wanna jump on this "spending time with the back of my head" thing, K!

Before my A, this was a huge issue for me. I begged W2S to spend time with me, night after night, while he sat on his computer. BUT IT WAS HIS JOB!!! He was trying to do everything...spend time with the kids (I was working all the time, too), do housework, cook, homework, etc and so once I got home at night and the kids went to bed, he needed to get some work done. How could I (or she) possibly justify what we have done due to our DHs' need to provide for the family? It isn't an excuse for her, and while I admire that you have changed your perspective and now want to spend those 15 hours with her, hindsight is 20/20, no? We cannot change the past...none of us can! But you are showing her now the person you want to be. Everyone has things in their past that they wish they could change, but we cannot focus on those things. We can only learn from our mistakes and be better people NOW. Don't let the past define who you are NOW. W2S went through a very similar transformation soon after feeling something had gone horribly wrong. All of a sudden, he remembered the times I had begged him to come spend time with me. At the time, I was in the middle of the FOG and was like "OOOOhhh...NOW you want to spend time with me!" But then I realized it was a permanent change. I saw the person he was becoming, and finally recently accepted that my decision to have an A had no justifications whatsoever. I hope and pray that she comes to the same conclusion. But, if she doesn't, then what are you to do? You cannot control what she is feeling or thinking. You can only actualize the person you want to be NOW. And you are doing that, TMTS.

Cheer up, buddy!!

Thanks Lala, you know how it is, some days you're just ugh.
I'm working on one of those little letters that Jennifer suggested I continue to do. I checked and she still has that original one I wrote her, so I guess that's a positive. You know I go on about the best friend thing, but the thing that bugs me is that we are best friends and I don't understand why that is bad.



She said something similar to my ODD. I think you're right in that she doesn't think the changes will stick, and telling her it will, won't do a darn thing. I realize that the real work only begins upon the start of recovery, that's when the true changes can be made. Right now there's no way she would spend 15 hrs a week with me. She doesn't push me away when I touch her and gets this nervous laugh when I compliment her (Like a thanks but I don't deserve that from you).

I'll be ok, it's just one of those days where you contemplate everything. It gets you a little down, but reinforces that the work you're doing on yourself is the right thing to do.

(Ok, you can put the lumber away now. LOL)

Can't change the past, TMTS. We all wish we could... I wish I could too. All you can do is prove that you aren't that person anymore, and learn from your mistakes.

And sitting there lamenting over what *could* or *should* have been is like running on a treadmill... expends a lot of energy, but gets you nowhere. So, instead use that energy towards becoming that new and better person you already are....

In other news, H is taking a downward slide again today-- not too bad-- but he's mentioned a few times he's not doing well and feels depressed today. At this point, he's still not letting me "in" at all and still not letting me help him with this, so I just sort of have to sit back and ride it. We are both tired and he's had a rough day at work, which I think contributes to it a lot too. He won't let me help at all, and when I ask if I can help, he just tells me no. Sigh. This is our biggest hurdle right now, these 'moods' he gets in-- and he just shuts down and wants to deal with it all himself, but clearly that's not getting us anywhere. We can't keep sweeping this under the rug forever, at some point we have to DEAL with it and FACE it, and I think he'll keep getting these moods until we do. But for now, he's not ready. So I just ask (over and over) if there's anything I can do. He says no, and then I just sit here and plan A away until he snaps out of it. But I meant what I said last week about no more enabling. If he really takes a downward turn, he's not taking me with him anymore-- I'm not begging and pleading. He needs to learn to start dealing with this himself more appropriately.

Anyways, enough about me-- get off the treadmill TMTS and use that energy on your DD and on bettering yourself and your plan A. If reality hasn't smacked her yet, it will soon... and your plan A needs to be infallible when it does!

I'll check in with you a little later tonight...

RIM

Aw, come on, now! I wasn't 2x4-ing you. I was trying to lift your spirits! I don't like when you get all down on yourself and start doing the "coulda-shoulda-woulda" dance. I want you to feel good about yourself and your changes for the better.

You know, I was watching a show on VH1 laast night...Celebrety Rehab. Boy, was it disturbing! The part that really got me was the pot smoker. She looked absolutely normal and healthy in a room full of washed-out drinkers and coke sniffers. She started describing what she did and how much she smoked and it was en par to my usage just four months ago. Dr. Drew said it was an EXTREMELY hard drug to get off of, especially the amount she was using, and that it was equivalent to opiates as far as withdrawl. I was suddenly so proud of myself. I did it cold turkey ALL BY MYSELF!! And so did you, BTW, although I don't know how much you were smoking. We need to focus on the good things we have accomplished and stop focusing on all the negative aspects of our situations. We have a lot to be proud of, yes we do!!

So, buck up, little camper, we'll beat these slopes together! (little clip from "Better Off Dead")

(((TMTs)))

I'M BACKKKKKKK....actually, I never really left, just had problems with me posts all weekend (its in my post). Just wanted to drop in and say hey.

I know you are dreading moving day, but if you want my point of view, it will make this a little easier. I say that because when you want to vent or she ticks you off and you think you want to throw in the towel, you'll have the breathing room to do it without having any cracks in your poker face. Now on the flip side, and this is an area I struggle in, it does seem like it hampers your person changes a little. Sort of like, I don't need to change this because he is not here to see it anyway. ie...personal apperance...I am not so good at it, and it's a little harder to do when I know he won't be here to see it. But I keep reminding myself to do it anyway...I think its all points back to expectations.

Also, I think Jennifer and everyone is right about not diving straight into a Plan B mode. Personally, I think you wait a whole month for that, but of course I am not an expert..so DO NOT LISTEN TO ME....

You are going to have enough of your own emotions to deal with if/when she moves out.

Its funny what you said about the couch and her getting some stuff, you know all things you could use anyway. That is what WS said to me..

Anywho, I will be in and out tonight, in between loads of laundry...in the mean time, keep the chin up...


not2fun

TMTS i am right there with you wishing that i had listened.... boy am i feeling it today.... i just posted on my thread but you are definately my hero on here cause i have a good feeling about you guys.