TMTS,

I bet you thought I wasn't going to check on you, NOT. NO WAY. I am so PROUD of you. You are a shining example of a man of G-d and should be so PROUD of yourself and what you have been through, went through and are feeling right now.

You sir, are an amazing man. What you did tonight in handling yourself at the mediator, and then showing her a gentle caring loving side without LB is nothing short of a G-d gift.

Please take in this accomplishment of YOU. All the hard work PAID off tonight because remember, Plan A was and is about YOU. YOU making the CHANGES that you WANTED to do. It's about you BEING the VERY BEST you can be. And you were.

Your WW... we don't even need to discuss what she is doing. She is an alien... sick... ucky and beyond stupid. But remember, this ALL G-ds plan. He WILL turn this into something good and he WILL bless you for what you did today and tonight. HAVE COMPLETE FAITH IN THAT.

{{{{{{{{{{{{TMTS}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I wish I could reach through the screen and show you how bright my eyes are for what you did for yourself tonight. You are probably asleep. I hope is came easy and you are resting well. I will look for you in the morning.

Queenie

W2S - Thanks for the mental picture for last night. That whenever I found myself getting anxious or down about what we were talking about I looked at the picture and I could picture all of your names in bubbles holding signs cheering me on. It was a tremendous help, and made that first part of the process much easier.

Thinking about it now, I can only imagine what was going through her head...

The first thing I put down on my note sheet was two pom poms on the top left hand corner. well that on it's own did do the trick for me, so I drew a little stick man in between them. Well it's not until I looked at it again this morning that the pom poms look like something else completely... fuzzy breasts. ROFL.

That was good to keep something at hand to help focus or support you. I will have to remember that.

I'm proud of you, dude!

Good job TMTS!!! We are all proud of you!!

I have a busy day at work and just wanted to check in with you.

I'd say the fact that she was really interested in keeping the LSA as temporary is a pretty big sign she's unsure about this. Anytime any sort of "reality" that couldn't be "reversed" crept in, I would get scared too and freak out... so I think that was a small sign she's doing the same thing. Anything permanent scares her because deep down inside, her gut is telling her to slow down, wait, give this a chance, YOU IDIOT! (at least, that is what my gut was saying... I just got good at ignoring it... but sometimes it would scream louder than others...)

Good job...

RIM

Hi all,

I don't know if she is really interested in it being temporary, or if it's just the fact that I and the mediator had mentioned it and she is just going along with the flow as to give me some sort of hope. The d word came up a few times during the meeting and I was cool as a cucumber when it was, and didn't look over to see her reaction either. I think she was more shocked by the custody and residence of the children. This idea of having two places to stay during the school week would not be accepted by the schools. They will pick up and drop off the kids at one location only. When he mentioned this I immediately said that this is their primary home so I expect that they would stay here during school days, and that she could have them all the weekends she is not working (Knowing full well that any time she has with the kids she cannot spend with him.
I do have to tread lightly on this issue because if I push too hard she can wipe me out financially putting me in a position to have to sell my house.

RIM - If we could find a way to take over each others WSs mind we'd be doing just fine wouldn't we. I want what you’re doing and you want what I'm doing. So I guess we can only share and pray for each other. I so wish that it did have some sort of lasting impact that would make her think in the future. The fog is very think in WW land. I still don't know if the OM is still in the picture, but I assume he is and she just got smarter at hiding it.

I was speaking with my F this morning, and he advises that I should go to plan B soon. She needs to see the reality of you not being by her side, not cooking or cleaning or taking care of the kids. Even if she moves in with him, that is not necessarily bad. He explained that it was a big fog lift the first time he woke up next to the OW and saw her morning routine. He says that reality really hit him hard. After that it was just on more thing after the other that made him think he had made a mistake. So he's hopeful that let her go and see what life will be without me may be the best thing for our M... I'd rather OM tell her where to go and she decides to stay with me.

I just wanted to say that W2S and I had another great talk last night. This weekend (Saturday) will be exposure to the OMW. He said that there are enough things in his life that he "let go" and this will NOT be one of them. SO, it's finally gonna happen, and I think it will relieve some of his residual anger.

The other thing we talked about was YOU! (were your ears burning?)We agreed that letting her see your emotions yesterday was definitely a GOOD thing. The only BAD (or counterproductive) things in Plan A are: LBs, trying to educate the wayward, constant R and A talk, etc. There is nothing wrong with showing her you are sad, without LBs. Too much happy, upbeat, don't care attitude might make her think you really ARE OK with all of this. So, last night was probably a real shocker and may have gotten through the fog a little. But mostly b/c you are doing a good Plan A the rest of the time. In other words, if she saw you crying all the time it wouldn't have the same effect. It's a fine line. Under the circumstances, we think it was the BEST thing that could have happened.

I'm not sure she is still in contact with OM. You are watching her pretty closely and if there is no evidence of NC being broken at all, she may just be stuck in that wayward mindframe of "I wanna be single, I can do this on my own, everyone will be fine," etc. Hang in there, because if that is the case, chances are she will start to come out of WD in the next few weeks and may really start coming around. I know you can do it!

W2S was soooo happy that his imagery helped you yesterday. I thought he would write this morning but he had the 3-yr-old and was trying to get some work done and now he's getting a nap for work. I couldn't go to sleep unitl alomst 4:00 a.m. last night b/c of the pain I am in. I showed my MIL yesterday and I thought she was going to pass out. She has dealt with this type of thing herself, just in a different area, and so she understands the level of pain I am in. So much so that she offered to take the boys for a night, as did my mom (they were here W night and I showed her, too). The problem is, my 3-yr-old absolutely refuses to stay overnight anywhere. Heck, he doesn't even want to go anywhere or be away from us. My MIL took him for her regular TH afternoon with him, and, like last week, after about 3-4 hrs, he was like-I wanna go home now! I guess he lectured W2S all the way over to his mom's house yesterday about going to work. "I want you to stay home, daddy!" THAT didn't help DH at all, as he is already bitter for having to go back and be away from us at night.

Anyways, I'm babbling now...have a good one and hang in there!

This is my biggest issue. Because there has been no LB, R or A talk, and I meet all sorts of ENs I think that she is getting this sense (Until last night anyway). We're going to remain friends and everything will work out. Now I’ve got my opportunity to tell her about the reality of our friendship after separation and divorce. I thought when she saw me last night that she would remember the weakness, so I hope your right.

As far as OM goes I have no indication either way on if they are still in contact, together or what. She does act like she is in contact though, just got much better at hiding it. (I could be seeing withdrawal, but she hasn’t been acting any differently). So I continue with the assumption that the a is ongoing and hang on to the hope that he will not be able to make her happy or better yet that she finds out that he's two timing her. But then again he's not man enough to find a woman without having to seduce venerable women on-line so I can't see how he could manage two.

If that happens then we see what happens to the fog. But you know what Lala, today I'm struggling with the whys. Why am I doing this, why am I not just telling her to get out of my life and live with the consequences of her actions. Last night was major LB drain for me and I think that some of the crying came from that as well.

I have resigned myself to the fact that she is moving out. All evidence points towards it. My struggle right now is do I care? She claims to not love me anymore, and she seems to have Scottish fog (I.e. permanent), what's the point? I sit here like an idiot waiting for this person that I committed my life to throw it all away with no consideration as to who she hurts on the way. I'm starting to think that Plan B may not be far away. We shall se what happens.

I can't imagine how hard you struggle must be. May want to hop over to Hopeforus' thread and see what Steve Harley told him yesterday on the phone. Hope is dealing with a pretty cold wayward and has all but given up, as she IS in WD and will barely speak to him. Steve told him to keep focusing on things to reinforce the fact that they are a COUPLE and that he (you) wants to keep it that way. Why don't you do something romantic for her this weekend to show her that you still consider her your WIFE and not just a friend? Nothing pushy, just romantic.

And you know this business about what she is saying (fog babble), and how it really means nothing to you. She feels she is speaking the truth, but it is HER truth, not yours. Remember your boundaries as Mark illustrates. YOUR reality is that you love her and want to remain a family. Stay focused on that. You are doing so well.

I read stories like sdguy, myfamilyilove, lovinghim4ever, rocksolid, 14 and others and I just think...I couldn't do it! I couldn't be that strong in the face of such adversity. But they are WARRIORS fighting for their families, and so are you. Don't forget your goals. Reach down deep and stand strong in your fight.

I have faith in you and your M. You have been dealt a pretty hard blow with yesterday's meeting, but let it roll off your back, as it really doesn't mean a THING!! Plan B is going to be sticky for you because if you kick her out b4 she leaves and then go dark, she may become vindictive and go for as much as she can with respect to property and custody. It is a tough situation. I think you are playing the best game you can with the hand you've been dealt.

Can you call the Harleys? I can't remember..have you? You spoke to Jennifer once, right? Yes, she told you to write the letter. Maybe you could check back in with her and see what she says. Maybe you could write some stuff this weekend and run it by her..?

Only you can really answer this. But maybe you could rephrase it and say instead of Why...

what would happen if I stopped working on this relationship. Where would I want my life to go if not trying to mend my M? Those kinds of things. Why isn't really important as much as learning the lessons that G-d wants you to learn.

YES, you care or you wouldn't be doing this. However, what would it mean TO YOU if you stopped trying or working towards reconciliation?

Have you turned to G-d and asked him for guidance in answering these questions? Remember, you are dealing with a WW, you don't know what is going on over there truly. They are SICK, in a FOG and babbling. G-d is working something out in both of you, ask him for the guidance you need to keep on moving in the direction HE WANTS you to go.

Does that make sense?

Hi Lala,

This is all a product of yesterday (and something else...). Trust me that nothing happens until the LSA is signed. And I have no intention on kicking her out (I'll explain at the end). I'm going home now to read the notes from my first meeting with Jen where I wrote down the whys.

I did talk to Jennifer last week and I am getting a new letter ready to e-mail her this weekend. So I'm good there.

I feel honored that you even consider me in the same breath as those guys, I don't see it though. These guys are true warriors.

Now the end.... I think I know where this is coming from. I know I missed my dose of efexor last night and I don't remember taking it the night before. I feel like my brain is swooshing around up there.

You and I suffer from the same disease. Stinkin thinkin...

Take a compliment when it's given. We can't get enough of them right now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

TMTS- thanks for the reminder ;-) unintentional as it was.. I needed to take mine.

You should get one of those old lady type pill boxes, they have the days of the week imprinted on the little lids, anyway each week you put your meds in it and then if you forget or you think you forgot to take it all you have to do is check and see if todays pill(s) is already gone. It helps especially when we're so messed up in this crappy situation our WSs have us in!!

Hi Soon,

The funny thing is that it's the first time that I forgot to take it and not remember in the morning.

Thanks for the suggestion

What are the meds for.

Listen guys, I have to tell you something that I almost hate to, but want you to be prepared. Effexor withdrawl is one of the worst things I have ever gone through in my whole life. I am soooo against it even being prescribed. What you are experiencing TMTS is called "brain shivers" and doctors cannot even explain why it happens, let alone DO anything about it. Therefore they should not be prescribing it AT ALL. It is all over the internet, if you care to google "withdrawl from effexor." People are PI$$ED!! Their docs (mine included) gave them NO indication when they were put on the meds that they would have to experience such horrible side effects if they tried to stop taking them. And YES, I decresed doses, then tapered to one everyother day, one every 2 days, etc. Didn't make a darn bit of difference! There were days I could barely stand up or walk from the dizziness. That's when I started looking on the internet. Doctors don't yet have a medical term for the "brain shivers" and are reluctant to even concede that we aren't just all making it up!

If any of you are just starting to take this medication, I would STRONGLY suggest you go to your doc immediately and tell him/her that you will not be subjected to the kind of WD that this pill brings, and would like to be put on something that is easier to come off of when the time is right. If you've already been on it a while...God bless you, there's nothing you can do. I went down to 37.5mg at the end and even 1 of those every other day kept it tolerable, so if you cannot afford it and have to try to ween yourself, do it that way for a while. Nothing will help with the brain shivers, though. What scared me is- when your brain feels like it is shaking and rolling around in your head...what do you suppose would cause something like that!!!? Frightening stuff!!!!!!!!!

Hi Queenie,

They ADs. I went on them over a year ago now, due to trobles at work. They work better for anxiety which is what I was really going through at work.

Well I got the opportunity to bring up our relationship after separation and divorce. She said that all she would like is that we remain civil to each other, but understood if I treated her like garbage. That kind of threw me for a loop, so I just mentioned that I can live with that, and that I was just concerned that she thought that we would be like old pals. She understood that this would hurt too much.
so that did nothing, she had no reaction to last night's meeting, is real gun ho about getting away, and shows hardly any emotions about it. I am starting to question this whole FOG idea! This is a determined woman that has no plan but a he!! of allot of determination to go her own way. I mentioned that she knew how I felt and that I had hopes that one day she would have a change of heart and want to give me a call saying we needed to talk. Again stone faced. It was well done as far as plan A went, no LBs, no AO or DJ, just talk about things like they were fact, keeping all emotions out of it. I had more emotional conversations with my computer than what that was. I realize now that plan B will need to be extremely dark. And once the LSA is finalized that is where I'm putting my efforts to. Her complete indifference to all of this is creating LB withdraws that are huge, and I fear that the bank will empty very quickly in the next few weeks to a month.

RIM, Lala, Mrs.W. - Is this indifferent poker face all part of it? I'm not letting it get to me; it just makes me wonder if this is all a waste of time and energy I could be using to heal.

{{{{{{{TMTS}}}}}}}}

Remember I am still such a novice at this, but I seem to remember Mimi telling me that EVERYTHING they say is WW, FOG, POISON.

Don't let her trap you into anything. Keep to YOUR Plan until YOU are ready to DO something else. This is about YOU. Keep the FOCUS on YOURSELF.

As Mimi, reminds me. WE HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THEM. Did you see the thread on the 12 steps, read them again and again. Those can be a lifesaver for you.

Don't believe what SHE SAYS.....

Please correct me if I am WRONG.

Oh, it's getting to you. No fibs! But you are only human, buddy. You have to ignore her. Her poker face is as good as yours, I presume. You have NO idea what is going on inside her head. Nor will you- for a while, at least.

OK, so cheer him up time! Just to give you some examples, because I promised, of the determination of a foggy mind.

1. The first few weeks I tried to convince my H that what I did couldn't possibly be considered an A because me and OM did not sneak around. I told him there was no secretive meetings and that we did not sleep together, and so it was most definitley NOT "technically" cheating.

2. When that didn't work, I then tried to convince him he should actually use the whole thing as a turn on. That because another man wanted me, he should use that to get revved up.

3. When THAT didn't work, I told him that it was all his fault because he neglected me to "play" on his computer (he does not play games, chat, surf porn or play poker or anything that could be considered by a NORMAL human being to be "playing").

4. When THAT didn't work, I told him that I really just wanted to be single. That it had nothing to do with OM, and that I had felt trapped for years. That we had been nothing more than roommates for years and I need more excitment in my life. I told him I would always love him, but the "spark" was gone and could never be recaptured. I actually compared it to my XBFs from HS/college (I had 2 relationships during this time which lasted for over 3 yrs each) and that "once my feelings were gone, they were gone...nothing ever brought them back."

5. When he would get angry and tell me I was going to destroy my beautiful boys, I said "They will be fine. People get Ds all the time...they will part of the majority, not minority. As long as they know we both love them, kids are resilient."


Shall I go on...? I really don't want to b/c it makes me ill. What was I thinking? I don't have a friggin clue. All of the above statements were completely false but at the time I believed them wholeheartedly. I was MISS THANG and WOMAN HEAR ME ROAR.

Incidentally, I did NOT believe these things b4 the OM and do NOT believe them now.

So, yes, it is all fog. She will have one of the biggest reality checks of all time when/if you go dark. You know how much you do in your home and with your girls. Just make sure the paperwork is signed first (about custody and home and money). Let her move out. Do not help her. Give her a couple weeks, and then----- "Hey, who turned out the lights?"