re: No Expectations.

Be careful that you aren't confusing expectations with hope.

You need to have hope.

Expectations will kill you.

How to tell the difference:

Hope comes from those Little Victories. ie: you see her respond to something you have done in a good way. This is the tip of that 500th rock you threw into the river. This is what you need to do more of. This gives you strength to continue

Expectations come from you interjecting your wishes on what is happening. You see a glimmer of hope and try to extrapolate from it possible future scenarios. You take something positive and miss the opportunity because you have decided what it means and when that doesn't pan out, your hope dies because you didn't get what you expected.

You gotta have hope but don't make it something it isn't and expect anything else to come from it.

You're in a war. There are battles raging at many levels. On each battlefield are individual solders trying to keep from getting killed and trying to kill the enemy. Each one of those solders who defeats the guy he is individually fighting wins his battle and has a Little Victory. If enough LV can be had, the BATTLE is won and if enough battles are won, the WAR is won.

The LVs add up to winning the war.

But you can't try to figure out what each one means for after the war is over, because there is still a war to be won and the battle is still raging with bullets whizzing around your head. One wrong move and you're toast.

Make sense?

And for any statisticians in the group. If you want to know if what a WS says or does means X or Y...flip a coin, it will be as accurate as anything you can figure out by studying it in detail. Some of what they do means something and some of it means squat. And it's about half and half.

Mark

TMTS,

Memorize Marks posting on the difference between hope and expectations (I know I need to...lol). Man, that guy is smart....

Everything does sound good, but you know how her song can change tomorrow. I don't want to bring you down buddy, just want to give you a reality check. Don't go reading more into the situation than what may be there.

Ask yourself this, would you change anything about your Plan A if she was talking D?? Are you stepping up your Plan A because she is sounding like the fog is cracking??? Keep up your great work NO MATTER what she says. I know it is easier to step it up when they look like they are cracking, but you need to do it no matter what.

Now if this post is not making sense, blame it on the drugs and sickness...going to make a DR.'s appointment later, the office doesn't open until 11.

Keep it up buddy and my prayers are with you....


not2fun

Ok, Mark

You wrote that for me today and just put it on TMTS's thread. Thank you. I am printing this one out.

But I am still moving forward on my new life. It's a beautiful day in the PNW, a great day for G-d to work on me.

SG,

I'll give you a copy when my book comes out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Of course I have to write it before that can happen. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And find someone stupid enough to publish it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

And then get somebody to actually pay for it... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Mark

geez Mark,

I feel slighted...you didn;t post one to me.....lol

Oh those nasty little details..

Hey.... We could somehow make it happen and with all the money you are going to make we could put it into a bank account and make that cruise trip for all of us happen...

I do have a copy machine that we can use. I know a darn good proofreader.....

Publishing.... We can put out an SOS....

The paying for it. Well it's in G-ds hands then. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We had a real nice night and I controlling myself from saying something that can potentially be stupid.

Before supper she was lying in bed so I kneel down beside the bed and stroked her face and hair for about 20 minutes. Had supper, then I helped YDD to clean up her room. I went and laid down and fell asleep, about half an hour later WW came a woke me up laying face down on the bed, so I put my hand on her back and started rubbing her back, neck and touching a little butt... this lasted for about 45 minutes! She didn’t say a word until I reached down a little too far when she asked what I was doing (but not in a nasty tone).

So we are in the basement now and she is lying in bed... Would it be stupid to say the following before going up to bed?

"You know hon, the fact that you are getting the apartment key next Friday doesn’t mean you need to move next weekend. You know how I feel and I would be more than happy if you didn't go.

Ok too late, she's snoring now...but I'm not sure if this crosses the boundary of R talk.

I think it would be great if you said that, IMO. As long as she is in a place to be receptive...

My brain hurts, I'm going to veg and go to bed early..I'll catch ya tomorrow!

Good luck!

I was thinking of putting it in writing and adding the following....

"I personnaly do not think that a change of mind on your part is a sign of weakness and that you have gone too far to to go through with it."

What do you think?

I'm just concerned that it will come off as needy.

TMTS-

I wish I had some advice, but I'm following the advice of the experienced and watching/waiting for the carnage as WW is beginning to show signs of cracking from the pressure. We'll see what happens, I guess.

All that I can tell you is that I continue to pray for you and hope that it turns out like you're envisioning.

I can see that from todays posts about her friend.
I'm praying for you too man. Lets hope that the friends they are talking to have got a good read on our WWs and the cracks will get bigger.

I was thinking af passing thie by the friend that told me about my WW starting to rethink things to see if she thinks it would be of any help.

Just be careful with that. If WW gets wind that you reached out to HER friend, it will be ugly. Fortunately for me, most of her friends are also my friends, and they all think that she is out of her mind. Consequently, they tend to call and give me whatever bits of information they can to try to help.

I should be ok, this is the neighbor who thinks she's lost her mind and has been feeding me info and telling me to just be patient because from what WW is telling her she is confused and wondering if she is doing the right thing for her. For her to tell her that she thought she could fall back 'In Love" with me is a huge step forward because acording to the babble it's been a couple of yeras that she hasn't been.

What do yo think? Too risky? I trust her, she on my side with this.

FWIW, if it were someone that I trusted and I knew was on my side, then yes, I would.

I obviously couch that with the caveat that I'm clearly just a rookie who still seeks advice daily, if not multiple times a day, from the experts.

It's late - I'm signing off for the night. BTW, it seems very quiet here tonight.

(((tmts))) geesh if I heard what you did from the neighbor, I'd be doing cartwheels in the snow!! LOL keep up the good plan A and don't freak if you have to go into plan B, because you have done SUCH a wonderful job with plan A, that it may only take a couple weeks of her being on her own to decide it isn't worth it. I'm reading a book for the second time. When The One You Love Wants To Leave, tonight- I'll quote a tiny bit of it for you, it's so very much like plan B.

ps thanks for responding on my kids situation.

Thanks soon,
The neighbor doesn't think I would even need to go to plan B. She gives her 2-3 weeks max, if she does leave at all, hence this idea of telling her that it's ok if she doesn't actually go.

What I'm struggling with this comment is that when I read this it seems to go against every rule of no expectations... I read it and think that it's a direct plea to change her mind, which is not part of the plan.

This just feels so close to the edge of that narrow plan a path, I just don't want to blurt this out a take a tumble. (Mark would slap me silly.)

TMTS..

Don't forget that in Plan A it is OK to state YOUR TRUTH.

Your byline is.. This is not what I want, I care, and I want us both to have the marriage we want and deserve, with eachother.

I don't see how that violates your Plan.. but then again I'm no expert and I've sure messed things up along the way. I think though that so long as you stay on 'your emotional property' and state your truth without LBing.. you're good.

Can't leave you guys alone for a minute...

If you're going to say anything about her leaving, TMTS, just make it a short quip like, "I really wish you weren't moving in a week." Then add, what would you like for dinner? (Or something along those lines.

You state your desire/want/case for what ever you're thinking and then show that life does and will go on. You don't need to begin a two way conversation that turns into a debate for which you are unprepared and end up in a shouting match.

State it; drop it; move away from it.

The reason you need to avoid R talks during Plan A is because the tendency is to not just state something and change the subject, but to analyze everything, try to come up with a good argument for your position and educate the WS as to what is right...in your opinion of course. When the WS doesn't react the way you expect, you become angry and that ends up in AO that does not help the cause.

Any attempts to educate the WS are really DJs anyway (It says, "You are broken and need to be fixed...")

And when you first start out in this journey, you want it to end as fast as possible with the outcome of going back to before it happened and make it all like it was. It takes about 6 weeks or so by the BS to get to the point of being able to discuss things without breaking down and becoming clingy and coming across as weak and needy.

Any discussions (longer than one statement) where you sit and anticipate participation in a logical way from WS is stressful to both of you, especially early on. Since your goal is to make the WS want to be with you, you have to avoid making them unhappy when with you and trying to fix what's broke ain't gonna do it.

Once the pleading mentality is broken, single statement can get your point across, but you have to be able to hit and run with something else to bring up as a complete change in subject so you don't end up in a long drawn out debate that ends in shouting at each other.

Any statement you make has to be an "I" statement. And be sure it is one of those..."I feel sad over this" is one of those types, but "I feel you are doing this to spite me" is not one. So be sure you can tell the difference before you make the statement. It has to be about YOU not her and you have to say it and move on as if it didn't happen because if you wait for very long, it will be rebutted and you will try to defend it and nothing good will come of it.

That is where Orchid's revers babble comes about. It avoids being drawn into debate by what the WS says and you have to be able to do the same from your side of things as well. State what needs saying and change the subject.

When you tell a child to do something and then ask "Did you hear what I said?" you are making a DJ. And if you tell something to WS and then stand there as if to say. "Do you understand me?" you are doing the same thing.

"You know, our marriage can't possibly work if you keep inviting someone else into the relationship. "Are we going out for dinner or do you want me to fix that frozen pizza we have in the freezer?" Pause about ten seconds and if no reply add "Or maybe there's something else I can fix."

All of this is my own observations and my own opinion, but I think it fits with the program.

Mark

If this is something you've said to her before and your neighbor repeats basically the same thing, your WS may recognize it and think you're making an end-run around her. I dunno, I think it's kind of risky. The neighbor has positioned herself in a place of trust with your W, I don't think you want to jeopardize that. If you want to get this message to your wife, do it directly, but at an opportune PLAN A time (with NO expectations that she'll hear or respond).