Some similaries - like the same age. Not sure what it is around mid to late 40's - I sure hear a lot A's happening then.

My W never came clean with any details. Could have been an EA or full blown PA- will never know. The OM is wealthy and has some oil or gas company in which he goes to South America frequently. Good lord - never even thought of the STD he could have brought up here.

I basically changed myself for the better (plan A) and eventually she came around. I am not sure if she ever planned to leave the M at all. Just a "love" or romance thing I guess.

Thanks RW. Your response rings true for me in a number of ways.

I'm not sure I'll ever get details from WW if we get to that point, and it might be a deal breaker for me as to whether I continue in the marriage or not. WW is very reserved with her thoughts in that she thinks it's ok to keep some thinks secret in a marriage. Wow...should have been a red flag before I know, but....

And I'm not sure my WW ever planned on leaving the marriage either. Could be that she thought a couple of years down the road when our youngest son was done with school she would...in fact when I asked her on dday what her plan was with OM..were they going to keep doing what they were doing and then when our son (and his also who is the same age) graduates from HS they would live happily ever after she said to me "I'm not going to tell you what we talk about". So I think that may be what she is/was thinking. OMW confirmed pretty much that. Earlier this summer while OM and OMW were on vacation he blurted out "when our youngest son is out of school...I'm outta here".

But then again, right after exposure day, OM told OMW that my WW had told him she would never leave me. WTF? But it kind of makes sense now. She's had a number of perfect opportunities to leave if that's what she intended...dday...exposure day...so I just have a hard time thinking she really wants to go, but she can't shake the addiction and is now going though WD.

And I know what you are saying about the age. Midlife crisis? Our youngest is almost independent...change of jobs and relocation away from home/support system....being anonomys in our new location...trouble in new job...is this all there is in life????? all seem to add up to the perfect storm for an A to happen.

and the hits just keep on comin....

I know most waywards think their spouses are controlling, but....just got a note from OMW. Here's the jist of it.

OMW had asked me the other day if I thought WW was just waiting to see what would happen between OM and OMW to see if she could have a chance to still be with OM if they ended up divorced. I told OMW that I thought that was possible. So in this email, OMW says that she and OM were having an arguement and OM gave her the impression that WW has no intention of trying to make our marriage work. This was after exposure day. OM also told OMW that WW said I'm a control freak. OMW said WW had convinced OM that I was. OMW said to OM, how can he be a control freak if WW was able to keep f'ing OM after I found out.

I know that in WW's fogged up mind I'm a control freak. When I first suspected something was going on with them I did start getting a little controlling, but heck, who wouldn't? I can also see how WW would think I'm controlling as she wants to/wanted to continue f'ing a married man and I told his wife, so that's the ultimate in controlling behavior to her.

And this makes a lot of sense with her behavior lately. She sends me an email saying to not come to her work she doesn't want to see me. She refuses to go to my mom's for Christmas. It all seems like her way of testing to see if I'm controlling or not.

Ok, what's everyone think? Is this typical fog speak? Has anyone else dealt with that in their situation and got past it. Lexxxy, from a FWS point of view, did you think that of your H also?

I'm trying to not let it bother me too much, but it still hurts. Just one more thing I'll have to talk with SH about I guess.

Hope,

I'd ignore all fog-transmissions. It's really not important---stick with your plan. Don't react to what your wife is doing.

Hi Hope-
I don't think I've posted to you before, but I've followed your situation. I think you're doing very well!



I'm a FWW and my opinion is that this is typical fogspeak.

However, I would not immediately discount it as babble. If you listen to Dr. Harley's radio program (which I highly recommend by the way!) you will notice he always asks the betrayed spouse: "What did your wife complain about before she started her affair?" Usually there is something, and "controlling" is often the answer. Dr. Harley then suggests that the betrayed husband remove any sort of behavior that previously annoyed their wayward wives as part of Plan A.

If your wife ever suggested that you were controlling before she was abducted by aliens, then that is one change you can work on as she comes out of withdrawal. If this is the first time you heard it, then relax- it is probably babble.

Hope this helps!
~Saturn

Thanks Saturn. I don't recall WW ever saying I was controlling prior to the A. But prior to the A she always left me to "control" things. She never wanted to deal with the financial side of our marriage so I always handled it. Which made her ask me if she could buy whatever she wanted. I never told her she couldn't, so it was never an issue, but it's things like that could be perverted into my being controlling. Another example is family vacations. Early in our marriage I would sit down with her and discuss the where, when, what etc. WW would just say, I don't care, you plan it and I'll go. So that seems like another thing she could use as justification.

I know a big thing that probably led to her thinking this is when we relocated for work she said a couple of times she hated her job and thought she should find a new one. When she would say that I would point out that she has 28 years with our company, 5 weeks vacation, a great 401K and retirement, that she just didn't want to throw that away when she could transfer within our company to a job she would like better in a year or so. Did she think that was controlling? Maybe so. Could I delivered it better. Probably so, but she always agreed that it would be best to wait it out.

I guess what this all means is, if she felt I was controlling, I don't remember her saying it so if we would follow the radical honesty part of MB it wouldn't have been an issue. That's the kind of stuff I know we could work out if she would agree to talk with SH with me.

Also realize that OM is relaying info to OMW with an agenda as well, and with the knowledge/hope that it is likely to get back to you and throw a wrench in your marriage. Not to mention the fact that he has his own checkered past regarding telling the truth.

I'd say its likely that she's complained to him about you being "controlling", Doesn't make it true. She probably also told him that your M was never going to work out. So what? What was she going to tell him? "I love my husband, he's the best, our marriage is perfect!" I don't think so. I wouldn't let this change anything you're doing, it seems pretty babbly to me.

Thanks TYK. I hear ya. It just sucks.

But OMW did say that WW said she would never work it out with me AFTER exposure day. She said the same thing to me exposure night..."it doesn't matter if OM is out of the picture or not...WE'RE OVER. She also said the typical exposure night fog speak..."I was going to give you a chance, but not now". Gee...thanks for that. You were going to give me a chance as long as I let you keep scre**** your OM.

I'm trying to not let it bother me. Trying to not think with emotions, but with the logical plan. But it's hard not to let those emotions rule when you want to shake someone and say WAKE UP!

Hope -

Do you think there is a possibility of her blind siding with a surprise divorce papers and raiding your finances? Not that I am a paranoid type - it seems that WS can be deceitful to get their way. Probably should not speculate but at least be protected. Never hurts to check behind your backside.

H4U:

Remember!

Watch what your WW DOES, not SAYS.

Whether to OM, OMW, Boss, SIL, MIL, Aunt, unkle or busmate.

Your WW comes home every night.

That's not a sign of leaving.

And As I told you before, waywards will make promises "about OUR Future" That help them continue the secret world of thier Affair.

OM could have told your WW that he was going to take her away and join the circus.

And your WW could have agreed, and said she always wanted to be the Tiger tamer.

And look how H4U has failed her, by never taking her to the circus.

IT DOESN'T MATTER.

I can tell you RIGHT NOW, my plans for exiting my M, if I wanted to.

UNLESS I do it, it is only FOG, or rationalizations, or something to make me feel better.

Let her:

Move out.
Meet with a lawyer.
Draw up seperation papers.
Decide that the kids are to stay in thier home, and NOT come with her.
Pay you child support.
Have her move closer to OM.
Drain, empty, withdraw funds from savings, college funds or retirement accounts.
Purchase, and or lease other lodgings.

Any of above are actions.

Everything else is talk. And NOTHING MORE than that.

It nice you are in contant with OMW. But take only what is important from the conversation.

OF COURSE your WW wants to "be with" OM for a long time, or if his M falls apart.

She wants it that way, otherwise, she was just a wh0re to OM.

I'm sorry, she didn't get paid, so its even worse....

Please watch her ACTIONS. Not her words.

Your winning this thing.

Keep listening to SH. You might not have gone a fast or in the direction I would have liked, but SH IS the EXPERT. So, I defer to him.

Plan A your butt off. Its working. The torn up note? Proof. Why would she tear it up? Think of the contrast? Has she gotton any notes from OM? No. Should you have done more of that in the 20 years of your M? Yes. But, this is the new world of M after Adultery. It ain't pretty, but it's better than a D-world.

LG

I hear ya RW, Would divorce papers surprise me? Yes and no. WW knows we couldn't afford our son's college if we had two households to support (she doesn't know I could afford it using my 401K $$). She also knows that at this point I have not told the kids anything about our "trouble" beyond mom and dad are having some serious problems, so if there were divorce papers it would come out what is the cause and I really think she doesn't want that to come out, especially to the kids. Lastly, This is kind of history repeating itself. WW's mom stayed married to WW's stepdad for probably 3 years after she decided she wanted to divorce because she didn't want to divorce before their youngest son was out of H.S.(in her case I supported her divorcing her husband, he was verbally and physically abusive to my MIL). That was WW's plan also. We would stay married and we would "fake it" while she would go scr** OM when ever she felt like it and I was supposed to be ok with that because "she was going to give me a chance to win her back" while she was carrying on with OM.

Her cleaning out our finances isn't too big a concern to me. Most of our serious money is tied up in 401K's at work, so she could only get at her money, not mine. We live "paycheck to paycheck" in that we only keep cash on hand for daily living expenses and the rest goes in the 401K. Together we make enough money to set aside each month the $$ required to pay for our son's education, so if she did something stupid cleaning out that money I could use my 401K $$ to pay for our son's school and she knows I would tell him what WW had done. Again, that's something she really doesn't want to happen. Exposure night WW asked me how much our 19 y.o. son knew and I said "he doesn't know anything unless our younger son has told him, and DS19 hasn't said a word to me about our trouble (which he would if he knew)". WW then said "lets keep it that way".

All that being said, I think this thing will play out one of two ways.

First, if the A is truly over, which I think it is as OM is still trying to save his marriage and even if their marriage ends I picture my WW being too much trouble for him to bother with, I think WW will follow through with her plan to stay around until our DS15 graduates from H.S. That gives me two + years to work on our marriage. She can't stay this angry for too much longer so then hopefully we can work it out (just hope I can last long enough). Or, WW will try to get back together with OM sometime after New Years, and then I'll go to plan B. I could still afford DS19's school myself, but WW doesn't know that and I'm not volunteering that info.

I know this has been a ramble. Sorry. Incidentally, last night WW was back to her very angry/depressed mood. That's a good sign to me that the A is over. Just going to keep plugging along in plan A and talk with SH next Wed.

Thanks LG, you always prop me up.

I think you are absolutely correct in that OM told WW a whole bunch of crap that she believed and that is probably where a lot of her anger is coming from right now. I know by reading some of their TM's that he had told WW that he "could make her happy forever" (which he said when she was questioning their "relationship" after he had LB'd her a number of times).

My friend D told me that during her WD the majority of her anger was at her OM and herself. At OM because he used her and during WD she was figuring that out, and at herself because she had been so stupid to believe it. In her case there was no exposure to the guys wife or anything, so for me I'm going to have to deal with that part of WW's anger also. In her mind, I'm the one that is the cause of her not being able to be with her "perfect" man. I really try to remember what SH says "you're the one that is preventing the adict from getting her drug". Sometimes though, like yesterday, I really get down. Then you guys get to hear my venting/rants and prop me back up to continue on. Mad props to the MBer's. You guys are the best.

And you're right. Actions. She is still here. She still goes to work and hasn't separated her finances from mine. She hasn't been calling OM as best I can tell. And I think if OM hadn't ended it WW would not be able to resist calling/TMing him at some point on off work hours, and as best I can tell there have been no cell calls/TM's since the end of November. That coupled with her continuing anger gives me confidence the A is over. She still helps take care of the house and will talk with me concerning our DS's.

And I'm totally with ya when it comes to the pace of this thing. Following SH's advise has sometimes been difficult as I am a naturally impatient person so his "slow and steady wins the race" plan has been tough on me, but he's also been dead on so far with what he said WW will do and say, so I'm going to keep with what he's recommending.

p.s. Funny comment about me giving her more notes in our marriage. I used to buy her flowers a couple times a month, leave her notes all the time, buy her cards, surprise her with trips (w/o kids) etc. It got to a point when I would bring flowers home that she wouldn't even get too excited because I would do it all the time. Most times she wouldn't even say thanks!

Weekend was ok I guess, at least until this morning.

Saturday our son and I went to see a movie and then shopping for a bit. When we got home I basically dropped him off and when out for a while. Got home about 9:30 and went straight to bed. Sunday was kind of ok. WW interacted a little with me and not in an angry way. But of course she was back to ignoring me when I told her good night and again this morning when I told her to have a good day at work.

When I went downstairs I took a look at her cell phone and she had been TMing a friend of hers C. I've mentioned C before. She's young (mid-late 20's), met her H and married him 66 days later, because she "just knew he was the one the first time she saw him" and one week after their first anniversary she filed for D. This is the "friend" that WW has been listening to and confiding in. WooHoo for me huh?

Anyway, C asked WW how she was doing and WW said "ok, just missing OM". Ok, so far so good. I guess it is over. Then C asked WW how "animal" was (that's my new pet name I guess)? WW said "GRRRR...he went out and didn't get home until 9:30 and went straight to bed. I think he's up to no good. Maybe wishful thinking". Ok, what the heck does she mean by that?

Then C started talking to WW about going to Florida and was trying to convince WW that she should go with her. "There's lots of guys from Australia in that area. It would do you some good" C told WW. Just the kind of person I need "helping" WW think this thing through clearly huh?

I'm so pissed right now that I want to tell her to get the F out when I get home tonight. But don't want to do that until after I talk with SH on Wed.

What's everyone think? I know the part about missing OM is good as it tells me the A is over and she's in withdrawal. Should I just ignore all the other crap that went back and forth between them? It just really makes me angry that C and to some extent WW are acting like she's single and can go away to meet "guys" if she wants to.

Ok, everyone, tell me again to ignore words and look for actions. Yesterday after those TM's she did respond to a few of my conversation attempts. More Fog-babble?

Ok, Now that I've had some time to think about it, I guess those TM's don't bug me too much. I'm reassured that with WW missing OM that the A is over and the rest of the BS from the teenie bopper is just crap.

This rollercoaster just sucks. I'm sure when I talk to SH on Wed he'll tell me things seem to be headed in the right direction and to keep on with plan A so when the fog begins to clear she'll recommit to the M. At least that's what I'm hopin for!

Ok, one more question. What do you do about a "friend" of WW who was/is enabling the A and WW's thoughts? Do I confront her? That could backfire. Does anyone have any experience with dealing with an "enabling friend"?

Yes, ignore it. SH has it right, and won't steer you wrong. She is still there with you...this is just WD at it's worst and she blames you for what is her and OM's fault. Who knows why! I've been there, and now the fog is clearing, I still cannot figure out where my head was!

To answer your question about "What does she mean by that?" (the thinking you are up to no good stuff). I have 2 possibilities on that question, and it may be a combination of both, actually. #1-I used to WISH that my DH would have an affair...and I mean I TOLD him to go do it. Begged him, in fact. That way he would "understand" what I was going through. He would have evened the score. I could feel less guilty, and so on. She probably wishes and hopes the same thing. That way she is not such a "bad person." #2-She thinks you may be making plans to kick her out soon. She would say "wishful thinking" as weird as it sounds b/c then she can say YOU ended it, not her...she just made a mistake, you are the one who couldn't get over it, and so on.

It is never going to make sense to you why her thinking is so warped unless (God forbid) someday you find yourself in this position. So stop beating yourself up trying to figure it out. All you can do right now is be there for her. Show her that there is noone better for her and that even though she doesn't get it yet, you still love her anyways. My DH says the rollercoaster is the hardest thing he has ever gone through, and he still is coping with the triggers. I'm sure he will for a long time. But if my stubborn self can finally step out of the fog, anyone can!

As unfair as it is, she is in a lot of pain right now (I know you are, too). Obviously, she is in no frame of mind to be there for you, but you can be there for her. For as long as you can handle it...remember- this is still your choice (to repair the marriage), and if you choose to stop, noone can blame you b/c you tried!!!

Keep your head up!!!!

Thanks R. I just got done talking to my friend D and she said pretty much the same thing as you, that if I were to have an A it would make it easier on WW, either to say "see, he did it too so it's ok I did" or that would make it easier for her to leave as she could blame me.

Kind of OT, but yesterday I watched "Random Hearts". For anyone who hasn't seen it, it's an older Harrison Ford movie where his WW and her OM are killed in a plane crash. Both BS's didn't know anything was going on. I knew watching it was probably a bad idea, but it actually did me some good. Things Harrison Ford's character said and did made me realize I wasn't crazy for my thoughts and for some of the things I've obsessed about.

Anyway, thanks for the reply. I appreciate it.

Monday evening was kind of ok. WW talked to me some and not in an angry tone. New Years day was kind of "good". WW initiated a conversation with me early in the morning and we talked somewhat "normally" throughout the day. By evening she had returned to somewhat of a funk, but when I went to bed I told her "good night" like I always do and she said in a really quiet voice (almost too quiet to hear), "good night" back. Is she starting to come around?

Still looking for some advise on what to do with WW's friend C who is enabling WW every step of the way. What do you do when you know that's going on? If I say anything to C about getting the F out of my marriage it will piss WW off. If I send her an email and say I'd like her support in trying to save my marriage it will fall on deaf ears. It seems like since C has no family or friends in the area she's enabling WW so she can have a GF to run around with. How do you get a wayward to see that? I looked at WW's TM's again from Sunday and C had asked WW how she was doing. WW replied, "kind of bored and missing OM a lot". C replied "absense makes the heart grow fonder". Gag me. What do you do with someone like this?

Got an appt with SH at noon today, so I'll see what he says to do about C, but I'd be interested in others experiences with an enabling "friend".

I think that the "friend" should be considered more a symptom than a cause. If you are able to recover the M and your WW becomes a FWW, the "friend" problem will dissappear without much or any action required from you.

My W had a similar friend, she was actually a long time mutual friend of ours. Anyhow, the details aren't important but what happened is that after my W recommitted to our M and we began working on things she saw her friend clearly, and realized that she was not a very respectable person. She never officially cut her friend out of our lives, but she avoids her for the most part and she is no longer a priority as far as someone to spend time with. In following the MB philosophy, (POJA, spendinging 15 hours a week together, etc) there really isn't time for this friend in our lives anyhow, so the problem just went away on its own.

My W knows my honest feelings regarding her friend, I don't think she shares them completely, but I do think so honestly understands them and agrees that she is not a "friend" of our marriage.

Anyhow, I suspect that anything you do to attack the friendship at this point will simply be a distraction from the real issues at hand. Your WW will focus on this being "controlling behavior" and you'll lose more ground than you could ever gain. Win the war, and you won't even have to fight this battle.

Thanks TYK. Talk to SH in 15 minutes so I'll see what he has to say, but what you say makes sense.

I was thinking of just sending her a polite email telling her that I love WW very much and we've got two kids to think about and I would appreciate any support she could give me in saving our marriage.

Not what I really want to say, but if I worded it correctly it couldn't be thought of as manipulating or angry, just asking for support.

It seems like this is playing out like SH (and the people on this board) said it would. WW not angry with me as much and sometimes there are little glimpses of W back (like yesterday). I'm assuming SH will tell me to hang in there as it seems like the worst part of WD may be over and she should start to come out of it little by little.

I'll post again after talking with SH and let you know my plan forward.

I'd venture to guess that this kind of friend is a "fair-weather" friend that won't last once your wife is back. This friend serves one purpose only... misery loves company. If it wasn't this one, there'd be another. Just ignore this "friend".

GREAT on the appt with SH!