Thanks LG. I know what you mean. OMW and I have already discussed that we need to not be talking so much as it will affect my chances at recovering my marriage. Where we used to talk every day its now only a couple times a week.

Before yesterday I hadn't talked to her for 4 days, and that's good. I don't want to abandon her when she needs someone to talk to, but I agree that I don't want to be her crutch. Yesterday I kept asking her if there was someone local that she could talk to, but she didn't feel there was anyone who would understand, so I listened.

Next time I talk to her I think I'll work it in that we need to cool it a little as it will hurt my chances with WW. I have never lied to WW when she's asked if I still talk to OMW, so I don't think I've lost the moral high ground you mention. When WW asks why I'm still talking to her I tell her that OMW needs a friend that understands what she's going through so I've been talking to her when she needs a friend. WW did say to me a couple weeks ago, "if you're talking to OMW why should I stop talking to OM?" I replied, "I'm not sleeping with OMW". WW just looked at me.

Anyway, Last night was another fairly good night. Got home, shoveled the driveway, WW had fixed dinner, we had a couple of ok conversations. On my way to bed (this is for LaLa) I gave her shoulder a squeeze and told her good night. She didn't pull away from me or anything like trying to get away from the squeeze, so that's good.

Was talking to my friend D last night and during the conversation I started thinking, out of the last 7 nights, 5 of them have been really ok, and the other 2 were ok, but just not a whole lot of conversation. Progress? Who knows. Just still counting on the D papers showing up and if they don't and we continue to progress like we have the last week, it's all gravy.

H4U:

Your WW has probably used these same lines on you. And if not, then they are right out of the wayward spouse handbook.

--I don't want to abandon her when she needs someone to talk to
--Yesterday I kept asking her if there was someone local that she could talk to, but she didn't feel there was anyone who would understand, so I listened.
--I'll work it in that we need to cool it a little as it will hurt my chances
--When WW asks why I'm still talking to her I tell her that OMW needs a friend that understands what she's going through so I've been talking to her when she needs a friend.

You may not be slipping down that slope, but OMW certainly is. This HAS developed into a EA for her.

And OMW DOES listen to you. And gives you a kind ear. And sympathy.

Not you not sleeping with her, but all OM needs is HIS WIFE to tell him one day a little more about what you two are talking about and embellish just the wrong way.

And then he call your WW and off to the races you go again.

Am I being a little harsh here? Yes. I see where you are going, and I can also see where OMW has already GONE.

Calling YOU, crying hysterically and looking for support when her husband is being mean to her.

And thats OK for you, because...."She needs the support right now"

And so do you. And if you continue, IT WILL MAKE YOUR SITUATION WORSE.

Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.....

5 out of 7 days? Your winning this thing. You have a long road to drive yet, but your starting to create seperation from the wreckage.

Yes, you might get D papers tommorrow, I don't think so. IF she was going to be doing THAT, there would be other things she would be doing to let you know that. She would be awful to you, or amazingly sweet. Not where she is at, slowly reaching back out.

When is your next appointment with Steve Harley?

What weekend are you planning on going to the Marriage Builders Weekend?

Please keep it professional with OMW.

LG

Great points LG.

OMW made a comment to me the last time I talked to her about needing to not talk so much because she thinks she's becoming dependent on me. Never dawned on me until your comments that it may be developing into an EA for her.

A couple weeks ago OM asked OMW why she needed to talk to me and OMW told him "because he listens to me". Never really dawned on me that it may be developing into an EA for her until you said it. I'm definitely not slipping down that slope, but I can see what you're saying about OMW.

Points taken. Don't want to screw it up now when it seems like victory could be within my grasp.

Haven't scheduled my next appt with SH yet. MB weekend? WW absolutely refuses anything MB right now. In the future, after she de-fogs some? Maybe. I told SH last time I talked to him that maybe I could point to the MB weekend in Orlando in May. That may be within our timeline if she continues to progress.

Thanks again LG. I really appreciate you taking the time to kick my a** when I need it.

I did not talk to OM's GF in my situation nearly as much as you have spoken to OM's W in your sitch. But I did notice when I was talking to her that I was attracted to her, given our situation, we had a really good time and really helped each other out through a tough spot, so I suspect its a pretty normal feeling.

Be very aware of that H4U. Not need to jump from the frying pan to the fire!

I hear ya TYK. I've told OMW before that it's probably a good thing that we live 1000 miles apart. SH agreed with me when I told him that. SH said you wouldn't believe how many BS's get together after their WS's A's. I told him I knew where he was coming from as if we were close together I could really see how it could happen.

I'm not going there. #1, WW is still the person I want to be with. #2, I'm smart enough to know that OMW would only be attractive to me given the circumstances, not real life. Wow, hit me with a 2x4! Almost sounds wayward doesn't it?

OK, so brakes on the talking to OMW! Got that, right...now quit that negative thinking while you are at it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Of course she didn't pull away from the shoulder squeeze...she is looking for ways to be close to you again. Valentine's Day needs to be very special, Hope!! If you haven't planned something really sweet, then GET TO WORK! Perfect Plan A opportunity without looking needy. I'm not talking expensive stuff, either...just very thoughtful. Something that shows her she is the one you want to grow old with, yanno. And NO, I'm not talking about flowers/candy and a card! (although that would be fine in addition to something special...wouldn't rob a gal of some chocolates!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) Look on the Valentine's Day thread or on the "ideas" section of the board for a unique romantic idea.

I'll tell you what might be kinda cool, too. Let her "accidentally" find you looking through some old photos. Tell her you were looking for a specific one (be creative), and just got sidetracked by memories. I'll bet she sits down with you and looks, too. Make it fun, laughing, "remember when..." It will remind you both of how many wonderful years you've spent together. I want you to specifically focus on that guy you were when you met and fell in love. Before the kids and jobs and house payments came into the mix! Try to be more like that guy again...he's still in there, Hope!!

Are you making progress? Uh, DUH!!!!!! YEAH!!!!! I know you are too close to see it, Hope, but YESSSSSS! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks LaLa. Wouldn't you know it, 30 seconds after my last post OMW emails me. Her appt with her lawyer got postponed until tomorrow.

I replied, but not like I have in the past. I mainly responded about my situation at home and things between WW and myself. Didn't really encourage anything between OMW and me.

I don't know about the V day suggestion LaLa. I've tried in the past to bring things up to her that remind her of our past and she has seen right through that and become angry. LB? Don't know. I do think at this point maybe just a card and some candy may be the ticket. Not pushing anything since if she is in WD (which it seems she is) I don't want to go over the top. I guess I just feel like if I went overboard she would be put off, but if I just keep it light she will be more accepting.

Our anniversary is in 3 weeks. If things keep progressing like they have the last week I'm thinking that may be the time to pull out the big "emotional" guns.

I'm also going out of town with DS15 for a long weekend beginning Friday. If I push too hard it won't leave a good impression for her to think about while we're gone, but if it's subtle it will leave her with good feelings.....which is what I want right now.

That's not what I suggested, Hope. I said let her CATCH you looking for an old picture for something and then play it very naturally. There is a big difference between you "trying to bring things up from the past" and doing something accidentally on purpose. You are not trying to educate her or rub her nose into anything, it will just be coincidence.

And the Valentine's Day thing would be small as well (re-read my post...I did not say BIG or OVER-THE-TOP, I said THOUGHTFUL!!!) I mean, if you want to do the same old, same old things that MOST husbands do for their wives, without putting much THOUGHT behind it, go ahead. But I'm not so sure that's the message you want to send. Maybe you could make her something very special with the help of your son tonight. Maybe THAT'S why you were looking for the picture, get it? Just put some THOUGHT into it, Hope. Trust me on this! Think about when you were dating and weren't quite ready to tell her you loved her yet, but wanted to do something that showed her how you felt.

Then, on your Anniversary, do something very special. I would suggest something to pamper her. Maybe a massage (maybe for two?) and a nice night away together hitting some of your favorite old spots. This is something W2S did quite a while back and it really stirred something in me. As I remember, he didn't bring old memories up at all, just took me there as a surprise. The rest happened on its own.

All I am saying is one of her complaints was probably that things were a little stale. You are trying to prove otherwise....up to you, though!!

Hope, go read eyeofthestorm's latest posts from Princessmeggy and Mr. W!!!!!!

Thanks LaLa. I hear what you are saying. I'm just trying to think of something that isn't terribly obvious that I'm trying to "romance" her. The way she is right now it's like it's too soon after the end of the A to make it too "heavy".

That's why I'm thinking just a little something to let her know I'm thinking about her and not pushing the "R talk by proxy", if you know what I mean. I just think that if I get too sentimental too quickly it'll push her away. WW has already mentioned to me a couple of times when I guess to her that I've pushed things that she hates it that she feels like I think "woohoo, everythings ok with us". That's what I'm trying to avoid.

I gotcha loud and clear, Hope. Here's the thing...it's wayward fog babble. I used to HATE when W2S did stuff like that, and do you know why? Because it intensified the internal struggle between right and wrong. This is what you WANT!!!! The only thing you should stop short of here is like "honeymoon" stuff where the implication is SF. It IS too soon for that, but nothing else. I gotta tell ya, that "Whoo-hoo, everything's OK with us" stuff came right out of MY mouth!!

I am going to spend some time tonight pulling out some awesome "clips" from tootmuchtoosoon's thread. His sitch is a LOT like yours. Mr. and Mrs. W, Mark and others spent LOTS of time with him during the stage you are in right now. I always told him he was "really buying what she was selling." He kept saying..."I don't know, she sounds really convincing...I think she really wants this separation...she says it'll never work...etc." Well, they are in recovery now and she is counseling with Jennifer and willing to fully embrace the MB concepts. His WW even went through with a mediation session concerning the LSA just a couple weeks before reconciling.

For right now, though, all I am going to say is- there are many on this board who would kill for the opportunity you are getting with your WW. She has maintained NC, has gotten through WD for the most part, and is starting to reach back out to you. Don't let this chance pass you by out of fear of what she might say or do. Time to take control of your situation BACK from WW.

LaLa, Don't want to argue with your take on things, but I think I need to make sure you understand where we're at.

WW maintained NC? Physically they haven't been together since Dec 8 but there has been phone/email/IM contact as recently as 10 days ago. Has there been since? Don't know at this point, but 10 days ago I KNOW there was contact because they talked about WW's STD.

Gotten through WD for the most part? I wouldn't even begin to go there. SH told me that even if OM broke it off (which I think happened in early Dec), until the A is over in WW's mind, WD can't begin to happen. I think a couple weeks ago when I told her NC and work on our marriage or move out that WW still thought her and OM had a future. Especially after she found out that OMW was going to D his sorry butt. But as best I can figure, the A didn't end in WW's mind until the STD conversation with OM, which I'm assuming by her anger didn't go too well for her. Her attitude since makes me think that OM showed his true colors during that conversation.

Do I think the D talk was just smoke/fog babble? I'm starting to think so. It's like if I agreed to a "friendly" D she would be off the hook. And at the time of that talk she was still under the illusion that she and OM would end up together. After the STD conversation and my refusal to participate in a "friendly" divorce I think she started to look at things differently.

I've been keeping up with TMTS's thread (and Recovery thread also). it's been very encouraging.

I agree it's encouraging that it seems like she's starting to reach back out to me. I just need to be careful as one of the complaints she has with me is I'm controlling. She's said a number of times that I'm trying to manipulate her into loving me. Now I know that is mostly fog babble, but as SH has told me, don't discount everything as fog as there is probably some truth to those things (at least in her wayward mind). If I push too hard it just might seem to her that I'm controlling/manipulative all over again.

Trust me, I know my wife. If she figures this stuff out on her own it will be 1000% better for us.

I've been reading with interest some of the other threads where MyRev has been pretty vocal in his thoughts that a lot of us BH's here are wimps. I really appreciate that drawing a line in the sand worked for him and a number of others on these boards, but I've been thinking a lot about that approach and it seems to me that for a WW that thinks their H has not been paying attention to them, that drawing the line in the sand makes sense. But for a WW situation where she thinks the BH is controlling, the last thing that needs to be done is to "control" the situation with a "either do this or else" kind of approach. I just think that every instance of infidelity is unique and where something worked for one, it might not work that way for another.

Sorry to ramble. MyRev, if you read this it wasn't a slam on your approach. I'm glad it worked for you, but in my case (and others I'm assuming) there are ways to show a WW you are strong without throwing down the gauntlet. My WW just seems to respond to me more when I tell her I'm fighting for our marriage and not giving her an ultimatum.

Hmmm...interesting! And I do not find this argumentative at all, BTW! I agree each sitch has its own nuances and should be handled a little differently, but with the same underlying fundamentals.

I am so glad you have kept up with TMTS's thread (from the beginning?) because it is LONG, and I was sorta dreading the fishing expedition! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> You have to understand for HIS wife also, her OM showed his true colors only on that last day, but it was enough to turn her completely around BECAUSE of his Plan A efforts! So, don't count on every person reacting the same way. From what I read about the OM and the STD sitch, he was a b*stard to your WW, so it seems to have had a HUGE effect on her.

All I want you to do is take advantage of the holiday tomorrow and do something really thoughtful for your wife. All waywards think their BS is trying to control them, but if you feel it was a valid complaint in the M, then find another way to be thoughtful WITHOUT being controlling. But sorry, flowers and a card do not cut it as an example of your lighthouse. They are a great addition to something special...dig a little deeper, Hope! What does she like? What has been something she has only dreamed of? What can YOU give her that HE cannot? (You know, like Mr. W calls it "[censored] the OM cannot afford" expeditions!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

I hear ya loud and clear LaLa. Just need to figure out what I could get/do that wouldn't be too much, to soon (ha! how'd ya like that little play on words?)

Hehehe...I LIKE it! I am thinking, too...(explains the smoke!!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm glad you liked it.

I'm taking DS15 boot shopping tonight after work. I think we'll walk around the mall and see what pops up that would be a good V-day present. I'll let you know what I come up with.

Not terribly inventive, but I got WW a candle/candle holder set for V day. The card says, among other things, "marrying you was the best thing I ever did".

WW loves candles. I know I probably could have done better, but you can't shop much with a 15 y.o. nagging you on when we can go so he can get back to his computer games.

WW was kind of down last night. Only got a few words from her. I tried to engage her in some conversations, but got ignored. I guess I'm taking that as a good sign that depression is there from WD. It was also good to see that with DS15 and I going out of town this weekend. On the slim chance that she was planning something to try to get together with OM she would have been in a GREAT mood, but with her attitude I'm even more convinced that the A is over.

Won't be posting until next Tuesday when we get back from our trip. Hoping that WW being alone all weekend will give her the time she needs to figure this out. Of course, tonight might be "fun" with her reaction to the V day present. We'll see.

In all honesty, I think you're trying your best to justify doing nothing.

My whole point has nothing to do with "controlling" your WW or giving her an "ultimatum" ... sure, she will say that's what it is, but it is really about preserving your own self-respect, and it has a double benefit. You feel better about yourself, because you refuse to be a doormat, and your WW views you as a strong, confident man that won't tolerate her disrespect.

This is my opinion only, and is not standard MB philosophy, but I see very few circumstances where a BH should tolerate his WW remaining in the marital home while a known A is ongoing. In most cases, the BH should set a boundary ... "I will not live in the same house with a woman who is involved with another man"!!!

In your case, you may be right about your approach at this point, since it appears that the A is over, but now you have other problems, because your WW likely has lost a lot of respect for you and is reluctant to return to the M.

If you would have taken action back when the A was ongoing, and you were allowing her to remain in the marital home, then you would be in a much better place today, either together or seperately. I'm afraid that you may somewhat R your M, but will not be able to set the bar high enough to have a fulfilling M. You will just be one of these BH's that continue to wander around MB for months/years looking for small signs of improvement, and eventually settling for the crumbs your WW will allow you to have.

I've seen others here defend this position, so maybe it works for some people. I just feel that life is way too short to simply "exist" in a passionless M ... I simply love LIFE too much to accept this type of arrangement.

I understand that not all BH's have that kind of inner strength to stand up for themselves, but the point of my 2x4 posts is for them to look deeply inside of themselves to see if that strength is present and to prod them into action if that strength is indeed present.

For some reason men will tolerate stuff from a woman that they never would from another man. I once had an old timer tell me "If a man got as mad at another man, as he can at a woman, we'd all be in prison for murder". So, if I can touch a nerve in a BH by challenging his manhood, possibly they can make the connection that their WW's betrayal is more deserving of their anger than some anonymous poster on an internet message board, and they begin standing up for themselves.

Some, like Tyk, responded very positively ... some come to the realization late in the process, like TMTS, but see a marked improvement in their situation once they take action ... and some, like trytoohard, just withdraw further. It really is just about your own level of self-respect and what you will tolerate.

I understand where you are coming from MyRev, I just disagree with your statement that I'm doing nothing.

I've been doing exactly what SH has recommended I do, up until a week or so ago. At that time he recommended that I go to plan B, but that was with the understanding that the A was still going on. The last thing we talked about was exposing WW's STD to OM to see if that ended the A. It seems like it has.

So....if I'm buying into MB and SH here, Plan A is for a limited time to show the wayward what they'll be missing and to try to end the affair. I've been doing that and it seems like the A has finally ended in WW's mind. The next step is to get the wayward through WD where once that happens the wayward is able to think more clearly and possibly recommit to the marriage. In my situation, I feel like I'm dealing with WD right now.

So have I been a wimp? Not in my book. Maybe in others books I have, but not in my book. I've exposed according to the plans that SH and I worked out. WW has said she wants a D and I've stated that I will not help in that, but if she wants to do that, have at it. Could this have all been over a number of months ago if I'd have gone to plan FU like some here have had success with? Maybe, maybe not. But right now, the A is apparently over, WW is still home and getting through WD, is starting to reach out to me in subtle ways....Like SH says, going to plan B is a risk....and if progress is being made, why risk it? MB says Plan A should have a definite time limit and then you reasses where you are and decide if you can go on longer. A few weeks ago I was ready for plan B because the A was still going on in WW's mind. Now that it's not, I'm ok with continuing with plan A for a while longer to try and get WW through WD and THEN we'll see if WW is willing to be a partner in recovery. Like this site and SH says, during WD you might as well just exist because you won't accomplish anything with the wayward.....

So...I went home at lunch and WW didn't even open the V-day card I got her.......Conflict within?

MyRev...that was a GREAT post. I know what it is that you are trying to accomplish, and I understand. I think, though, that sometimes (not always!) the message gets lost in the delivery. Big Kahuna is very blunt and to the point, also but doesn't actually cross the line of insulting people. There is an element of condescention to SOME of your posts that just evokes a "put your dukes up" kind of response. But I like you very much, and everyone has different styles...ALL of which are necessary to reach people. You and I are pretty new, but we will develop our styles more as we go along...

HOPE- The candles are fine. Last night the boys and I made W2S a card. Today when I woke up, he had a bath drawn for me with candles and a heart on the mirror of the bathroom. I came out to get coffee and there was a Valentine's poem sitting on my coffee cup. I came downstairs and he had a cute little stuffed heart doggie in a bag with a card. He was always great at making these kinds of days special. I am going now to cut out little hearts, each of which will say something that I love about him. I am going to put them everywhere...

Sorry she is being cold again. Steve is right, WD is a beeaatch, so just hang in there for a while. Be there for her when she reaches out to you. You're gonna be fine, bud!!