Thanks, TMTS.

I'm feeling like crap today. I texted her a couple of times and she isn't responding. I guess I screwed up and pushed her back again. Now I've lost my ability to communicate with her. Feels like I'm back to square one.

I don't know about be at square one... remember your little victory? She asked for you to go to dinner. She's the only one that knows what her intention was that night, but take it as a positive, because it sounds like you ran a good plan. Read the stuff on my thread from Mrs. W and Resonance. I asked them at one point if the fog lifts suddenly, and they both said that it was a process. If she is not really interested in OM2 then the dinner could have been the first stage. Point is not to throw in the towel yet.

No, I'm not throwing in the towel yet, but I was feeling like it today.

My mind keeps wandering to the worst places. I was fighting the urge to call her because she wasn't responding to my texts. I thought for sure she went back to see OM. I finally broke down and called her to find out that she's at the hospital visiting her grandmother. Apparently her GM had some sort of heart problem and had to be rushed there today. I'm a little upset that she didn't call to to tell me about this. Would she have called if her GM passed away? Am I over reacting about this? I loved her granparents and never got to say goodbye to them or her parents for that matter. Like most of her family (except Brothers and sisters), they don't know what happened. To them, I simply disappeared after 15 years and she doesn't tell them why. I know I should've exposed the A's to them, but they don't have much influence in these matters and it would just be a LB at this point.

Don't let any of the vets hear this...Her parents don't know??? Don't assume they will have no influence. My ILs are my number one supporters. Have you exposed at all? How about the OM2? Is he married? What did she have to say when you got her on the phone? Did you offer your support?

I've exposed to her 2 sisters, brother, BIL and her friends already knew about it. I'm sure when I say that her parents will not have any influence on this. They are divorced and don't have that type of relationship with their kids. Her M would say something, but it would go through one ear and out the other. Her F wouldn't say anything at all. In fact he had an A, which is why they divorced. It is a disfunctional family and the parents do not provide much guidance. Exposure to them would just bring shame, but not any presure for her to do the right thing. At this point, what would it do? The A is over with OM1 and it looks like OM2 is on his way out. I was planning to tell her parents if/when a D is filed to let them know what happened and why I am no longer their SIL. But until then, I didn't want it to be another LB.

btw, she doesn't know about her father's A or why her parents divorced. The only one who knows is her little brother who I'm still very close to and consider to be my own brother. He overheard it when he was very young, but never told anyone. He told me recently when we were talking about my sitch. It is not the average family. She is closest to her older sister who supported me at first, but WW didn't heed her advice. So, now she has stopped trying to persuade her and is supporting whatever decision she makes. The worst part is that she is WWs main support system. She doesn't speak to her friends about it because they don't tell her what she wants to her. Her friends support me, but don't get a chance to speak to her because she has somewhat alienated herself from them.

As for when I called her, all she told me was that she was at the hospital visiting her GM and what had happened. I told her I was sorry about her GM and asked if everyone was okay. She said yes, sounded fine and said would call me back, but she never did.

Something that hit me this morning like a 2x4 was that I really need to man up. This plan A is not working the way i need it to, possibily because I'm not doing it with the right attitude? She still has no respect for me. I think I need to stop telling her I love her and that I want to work on our marriage. That seems to push her away even more. Do I need to start acting like I'm ready to move on? It just seems so contradictory with plan A, but I've heard it said many times in this forum. Maybe I'm just not getting it.

PS... OM2 is not married.

DM, here is a Notable Post which might help you:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``
"The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A" by Pepperband

THE CARROT OF PLAN A:

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



THE STICK OF PLAN A

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Allowing the consequences of adultery and infidelity to fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to affect children of the marriage or the financial security of the marriage, or otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slain for the good of the family.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thank you, Mulan. This is exactly the kind of information that I need to get pounded into my head. Specific do's and dont's because apparently I'm no good at this and need to have it explained like a five year old. I know it's my fault. It's like I have a map and directions, but don't know how to drive. I'm angry and frustrated right now.. at her, myself and this whole situation.

I really appreciate everyone's help and support. If there's more information like this, please send it my way. I'll be back when I cool off!

DM-I'm sorry you are having such a bad day. Remind me again-where is she living? Isn't it w/her father and brother about a block away? Just want to make sure I'm remembering correctly...

I am afraid to tell you to go to Plan B because there was no Plan A first. In fact, I'm not sure at all which route you should go. My best suggestion would be to get the Harleys on the phone for one session, explain the situation and see what they suggest. I'm sure you could use it for yourself as well, I have not spoken to them yet but I've heard they are fantastic! It may go a long way in helping you get a plan for yourself, as well as for your marriage.

Come here and vent as much as you need to...it will help!

Dm-I have spent the last HOUR looking for this, so I hope it helps!!!!!!

This is an old post of mine I cut and pasted from the Longhorn "For Newly Betrayed Spouses" thread on the Just Found Out board. It applies here as I would anticipate a pull back from her tomorrow....and want you to be ready for it and understand it's NOT a set back....just part of the ride.

So here it is -------------->

Some days your spouse will be kind to you and other days hostile. As you ATTEMPT to pull closer to them and reestablish intimacy they will no doubt respond by pulling away for fear of you interrupting their affair OR, if the affair is over, for fear of leading you on. If you pull away from them the Waywards may often pull you closer for fear of losing you, for fear of losing their options as they cake eat/ride the fence of indecision. However, if you pull away to hard you may run a huge risk that you will merely reinforce and legitimize their built up rationalizations and justifications. It's simply the roller coaster of infidelity and the more you recognize it for what it is the more POWER you have to control YOURSELF as you both progress through this mess.

The wayward emotional pull back is to be EXPECTED. Waywards almost always do this. They take a step towards you and you respond appreciatively...you acquire Hope and push for more, more, more. You hunger for HOPE and they fear it. WS's don't feel worthy of it and are holding on to so much of the rationalizations and justifications that they can't see straight YET...even if they HAVE recommitted to the relationship and gone to "NO CONTACT". They fear hurting you further, hurting their family further. They fear you are placing much more significance on each step forward than you should cause they legitimately and quite necessarily DON'T FEEL IT...YET. So they slap you down and retreat. They may even defend/insulate themselves from you by calling you NEEDY AND UNATTRACTIVE to get you to back off. Hence, the step backwards.

When you detach from the rollercoaster and allow him/her to proceed at his/her desired speed you can hopefully minimize the steps back. When YOU internalize and beleive yourself to be the obvious choice, acquire patience and the confidence that he/she would be a fool not to recomitt to you, then you become the confident, unpressing, spouse that swept them off their feet so many years ago. He/she can more easily recommit to the person they saw back at the beginnig of your relationship than they can to the devastated spouse they see before them now.

You are behooved to, for the most part, just let it go for now, OP's is soon to be or IS out of the picture...this is just you and your spouse now. Try to date them (alone time without KIDS is KEY...family time is NOT as effective). Movie dates suck cause you can't talk but those are the kind of dates you want now. Consider loud restaurants, clubs and bars. Activity based dates where you are not seated facing each other forced to have that “serious talk”. But if they won't date you go out yourself and either have fun or feign fun. They will eventually get suspicious or feel the need to take a break themselves and hopefully follow along.

In conclusion, you only control you. The more you understand the dynamics of infidelity the more prepared you will be to anticipate it and combat it. Your spouse, as expected is behaving like an idiot right now and "idiocy" will likely be the forecast for some time. YOU must be the leader of your family and the leader of your marriage and despite the crap you are putting up with BE the best person you can be....simply, ACT, DON'T REACT.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

OK...the list of Do's and Don'ts.

Do's
1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)

DON'Ts

1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP

*sorry the above is a little choppy...I combined several similiar posts to compile this one.
-----------

DM- This is from Mr. Wondering. It was posted to a memeber whose spouse had moved out and was asking what to do...

Lala,
THANK YOU for taking all that time to dig this out. Yes, it helps ALOT and it describes exactly what's happening with her right now. It also confirms what I've been feeling, that I'm doing this all wrong. Unfortunately, I'm at work, so I don't have much time to post, but I'll be back this evening. You really did help me with that. You don't want to know the things that were going through my head at lunch.

And to answer your question, Yes, she's living a block away from me at her F's house. She currently lives there with her brother and brothers fiance. Her dad is barely there and usually spends his nights at his girlfriends house.

So, I IMed her today to find out about her grandmother. We talked strictly about that and the situation didn't sound good. She is going to need heart surgery, so WW went back to the hospital to see her tonight. I asked if there was anything I could do, but I knew the answer would be no. There was one part of the conversation that may have been a mistake... when I asked why she didn't call to tell me about it lastnight. She said she didn't want to "bother" me. I asked if she really thought something like this would be a bother to me and told her that even though she is HER grandmother, I've known her for 15 years and she does mean something to me too. So she apologized and said she would contact me next time. I feel like I should visit her GM at the hospital, but don't know if I'd be welcome or if I'd be stepping my boundaries. I'm really feeling like I've been cut out of the family and erased from their memories.

I have offered my support, but it's not appreciated. As much as I want to be there for her, I guess I just need to back off and not become an outside burden. It's hithing me hard that my involvement in her family life is no longer wanted.

There were other things that I wanted to post about, but this just happened and I'll post later.

If you want to visit, then go! If things are tense, just stop by and offer supprt. It's up to you, though.

My heart goes out to you, DM!!! You are not alone.

DM, is she still there now? (Sorry I don't know what time zone you're in). If she is go! Could it be that the dinner the other night was a test? Think of the respect you would gain to be there in her time of need even when she knows how hurt you are you still support her. You don't even have to see GM, but be there for her and if she's ok with it them you see GM. I don’t know man it seems like your missing out on one big chance here.

P.S. Drop by W2S and Lala's thread. Lala is in much pain and could us all the love she could get.

Thanks, TMTS & LaLa. I felt like I needed to get out of the house lastnight, so I left after that post. On top of that, it's been a crazy week and I've had less and less time to be here. I have a lot I want to say, but I'm also really tired. I hope my head doesn't hit the keyboard and accidentally post something.

I didn't go to the hospital, but we went back and forth on text for awhile and I gave her as much support as I could. I really think I need to back off a little and give her some space right now. It's starting to look like OM2 is moving out of the picture, so I don't want to do anything to push her away or make her step back anymore. I was worried that showing up at the hospital would somehow be an LB if she doesn't want me there. Sadly, the best way to communicate right now seems to be text or IM. I think that is her comfort zone and I always seem to catch her at a bad time if I call.

IM'd her again this morning and we talked off and on all day. I'm following all the do's and don'ts. I think I'm finally getting the whole carrot and stick thing now. It seemed to be going pretty well, but she still get's quiet and signs off without saying goodbye. That part kind of stings because we used to always say I love u and goodbye, but I'm hoping to keep it up at this pace and get her to come out with me this weekend. Otherwise, she's leaving for a business trip on monday and will be gone for a week. We'll see how it goes.

btw.. TMTS, about her testing me when we went to dinner. I was wondering about that and thinking it was more like she was looking for something. Maybe she was looking for a certain feeling when she was with me, but obviously didn't find it. It's not like that feeling is going to magically appear after all of this.

One thing I noticed though, she hasn't been giving me any fog speak lately, but maybe thats because I'm not bringing anything up that would call for it? Things have been pleasant and I'm glad that she's talking to me more, but I can still sense her fogginess when I say something affectionate and she get's really quiet. I've also been wondering what it meant the other day when she said she needs "time." Does that mean she's atleast thinking about "us" again and she is not so sure of herself anymore?

OK. I'm typing with my eyes closed now and I feel like I'm just rambling to myself. I'll try again tomorrow.

Maybe but the fact that she is looking is a good sign IMHO.

Has she specifically told you to stay away from her? If not I think you're missing out on a major opportunity to fill some ENs by not goingto the hospital.


Check out this link... It's very good for those at our stage.
Be Still

Keep being affectionate, but without pushing. Baby steps...rocks in the river. Take care of yourself in the meantime. Try not to overthink everything she says and does. Just think of it like a bank...make your deposits and go about your business. Pretty soon she'll talk to you more, and more, maybe a couple dates, and then a couple more, etc. If this happens, it's very important that you do not try to do R and A talks! Keep it light and create the environment of when you were dating, so she can remember why she fell in love with you.

There will be trust issues on both sides, here. You- for the obvious reasons, and her- because she will be wary of your true forgiveness this time. This happens even when the BS doesn't ask to WS to leave, so it will be escpecially delicate in your sitch.

Time and consistancy are the keys here. In the meantime, get lots of projects and fun stuff for yourself to do to keep your mind off things!

Why is it that when you try to avoid trouble, it comes and finds you? I figured I've been calling, texting and IMing her everyday, so I thought I should take a step back and give her some space. I was pretty tied up at work anyway, but I thought about her constantly, almost to the point where I broke down at the office. I log on to check my mail and she immediately tells me i look like a drunk. She was referring to some pictures that she saw of the NYE party I went to with all of our friends. I guess it was time to for justifications again (ie: I'm an alcoholic now). This started awhile back because I drank a bit heavily for a few months after dday, but before all of this happened we only went out drinking once a week on the weekends with our friends. She then went on to the topic of a birthday party that both of us were invited to. It's her friends birthday and there's a whole story behind this that I won't go into, but WW started cutting me down and asked why I would even consider going. She said I was only invited to fill space and that all the friend cared about was having a full house. She doesn't know that this friend has been calling me and giving me support through all of this. Anyway, I was pretty P#$$ed off for awhile, but I'm glad I didn't do or say anything because I simmered down after an hour.

Now that I'm done venting, I do have a question. I went out with some friends lastnight and met a girl. She's younger, attractive and seemed to have a great personality. We exchanged numbers, it was a confidence boost, but it's not really what I want to be doing. I want more than anything to fix my marriage, but with all that WW has done and the whole OM2 situation, I'm wondering if I should just start dating. Especially since WW is not giving me anything to work with. I know a lot of people on here will say no, but I'd like to know the reasons. Maybe if I do, it will make WW see things differently and want to come back?

DrowningMan-

I'm not a vet, so I'll let them trump me if necessary. Dating while you're still married is not an option if you want to recover your M. If you don't, then end it and start dating after it's over.

because you are still married.